[Surrey] 3 Civic Plaza | 164m | 48 fl | Completed

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by simgu

Anybody received that 6th amendment yet?

6th amendment? At this rate, this must be a twelve episode series worthy of Game of Thrones treatment. I love the tower but the snail pace is questionable.

[montyhallgoat]

Originally Posted by rokim99

\

Does radiant cooling considered to be superior technology then conventional , forced air A/C then ? why would developers choose radiant cooling over forced air ?

Don't consider radiant cooling as A/C.
Use of radiant cooling is limited and often supplemented with another source of cooling because it cannot lower the room temperature effectively.
It will create condensation issues as soon as you try to cool the room like an A/C.

For example, it's 28C with 48% RH today = dew point of ~16C.
You'll start to see condensation on the ceiling once the surface temperature drops below 16C and you left a window open or took a hot shower.
To prevent the condensate water dripping from the ceiling, cooling tubes should not be chilled less than 16C at the source, which is not cold enough to effectively cool the room.

So why use radiant cooling?
At the end of the day, it comes down to the installation cost.
It's way cheaper to lay radiant tubings while pouring slab instead of installing fan coil/air handler and ductworks.

With assumption:
- 1000 sq ft 2BR unit
- PEX (plastic) radiant tubings @ $0.50/ft
- 1500 ft of PEX (more than enough to cover 1000 sq ft)
Ignoring labour, the installation cost would be:
- $1000+/unit for radiant cooling ($750 PEX+$100 t-stat+$150 zone valve)
- $4000+/unit for fan coil with ductwork ($3000 coil+$100 t-stat+$1000 ductwork+additional anchoring/hatch/drywall finish)
- Cost savings would be far greater for smaller sized 1BR units because base costs for fan coils are generally expensive regardless of capacity.

Now, the benefit of radiant cooling would be:
- Flexibility and saves a lot of space inside the residential unit
- Virtually no maintenance requirements for occupants with no filters or moving parts
- It's quiet and "gentle" because it does not move air

Again, radiant cooling will not lower your room temperature much but makes you "feel" cooler, like lying on a tiled floor instead of carpet.
Most buildings needing A/C prefer to cool and dehumidify the air, so they use more expensive fan coils with chilled water running through and condensate pan will catch moisture as air passes through.
I think its an added bonus to have at least radiant cooling, but it is not like an A/C without fan coils inside each residential units.

[rokim99]

Originally Posted by montyhallgoat

Don't consider radiant cooling as A/C.
Use of radiant cooling is limited and often supplemented with another source of cooling because it cannot lower the room temperature effectively.
It will create condensation issues as soon as you try to cool the room like an A/C.

For example, it's 28C with 48% RH today = dew point of ~16C.
You'll start to see condensation on the ceiling once the surface temperature drops below 16C and you left a window open or took a hot shower.
To prevent the condensate water dripping from the ceiling, cooling tubes should not be chilled less than 16C at the source, which is not cold enough to effectively cool the room.

So why use radiant cooling?
At the end of the day, it comes down to the installation cost.
It's way cheaper to lay radiant tubings while pouring slab instead of installing fan coil/air handler and ductworks.

With assumption:
- 1000 sq ft 2BR unit
- PEX (plastic) radiant tubings @ $0.50/ft
- 1500 ft of PEX (more than enough to cover 1000 sq ft)
Ignoring labour, the installation cost would be:
- $1000+/unit for radiant cooling ($750 PEX+$100 t-stat+$150 zone valve)
- $4000+/unit for fan coil with ductwork ($3000 coil+$100 t-stat+$1000 ductwork+additional anchoring/hatch/drywall finish)
- Cost savings would be far greater for smaller sized 1BR units because base costs for fan coils are generally expensive regardless of capacity.

Now, the benefit of radiant cooling would be:
- Flexibility and saves a lot of space inside the residential unit
- Virtually no maintenance requirements for occupants with no filters or moving parts
- It's quiet and "gentle" because it does not move air

Again, radiant cooling will not lower your room temperature much but makes you "feel" cooler, like lying on a tiled floor instead of carpet.
Most buildings needing A/C prefer to cool and dehumidify the air, so they use more expensive fan coils with chilled water running through and condensate pan will catch moisture as air passes through.
I think its an added bonus to have at least radiant cooling, but it is not like an A/C without fan coils inside each residential units.

Would this considered to be false advertisement then because this project was marketed as having AC?? They never said it's radiant cooling, they specifically said there is AC.. Mmm

[Blease]

I googled radiant cooling and the write-ups I saw were quite promising. It’s described as a newer technology that’s popular in Europe. At least one article described it as an effective way to maintain cool temperatures. The key question though is, do condo units at 3 Civic have a mechanism to reduce humidity from the air. Even if no built-in system exists, condo occupants could always purchase their own dehumidifiers as a means to make the radiant cooling that much more effective.

[Gummozebra]

Originally Posted by montyhallgoat

Don't consider radiant cooling as A/C.
Use of radiant cooling is limited and often supplemented with another source of cooling because it cannot lower the room temperature effectively.
It will create condensation issues as soon as you try to cool the room like an A/C.

For example, it's 28C with 48% RH today = dew point of ~16C.
You'll start to see condensation on the ceiling once the surface temperature drops below 16C and you left a window open or took a hot shower.
To prevent the condensate water dripping from the ceiling, cooling tubes should not be chilled less than 16C at the source, which is not cold enough to effectively cool the room.

So why use radiant cooling?
At the end of the day, it comes down to the installation cost.
It's way cheaper to lay radiant tubings while pouring slab instead of installing fan coil/air handler and ductworks.

With assumption:
- 1000 sq ft 2BR unit
- PEX (plastic) radiant tubings @ $0.50/ft
- 1500 ft of PEX (more than enough to cover 1000 sq ft)
Ignoring labour, the installation cost would be:
- $1000+/unit for radiant cooling ($750 PEX+$100 t-stat+$150 zone valve)
- $4000+/unit for fan coil with ductwork ($3000 coil+$100 t-stat+$1000 ductwork+additional anchoring/hatch/drywall finish)
- Cost savings would be far greater for smaller sized 1BR units because base costs for fan coils are generally expensive regardless of capacity.

Now, the benefit of radiant cooling would be:
- Flexibility and saves a lot of space inside the residential unit
- Virtually no maintenance requirements for occupants with no filters or moving parts
- It's quiet and "gentle" because it does not move air

Again, radiant cooling will not lower your room temperature much but makes you "feel" cooler, like lying on a tiled floor instead of carpet.
Most buildings needing A/C prefer to cool and dehumidify the air, so they use more expensive fan coils with chilled water running through and condensate pan will catch moisture as air passes through.
I think its an added bonus to have at least radiant cooling, but it is not like an A/C without fan coils inside each residential units.

What detailed insight - thanks @montyhallgoat - learn something new every day! @rokim99, regarding "false advertising" I don't think it is, even their marketing brochure which I still kept, it says "sophisticated climate control system", "in slab radiant heating"

[iron]

Traditional air conditioning wouldn't make sense with the building's energy efficiency goals. Radiant heating and cooling is a better fit, using Surrey's district energy connection. A/C of any kind is understandably uncommon in this climate, so I treat the radiant cooling as a bonus feature.

The building's supposed to be LEED certified, but the marketing didn't mention that.

[montyhallgoat]

Originally Posted by Blease

I googled radiant cooling and the write-ups I saw were quite promising. It’s described as a newer technology that’s popular in Europe. At least one article described it as an effective way to maintain cool temperatures. The key question though is, do condo units at 3 Civic have a mechanism to reduce humidity from the air. Even if no built-in system exists, condo occupants could always purchase their own dehumidifiers as a means to make the radiant cooling that much more effective.

Use of dehumidifiers may be counterproductive in the summer.
They add quite a lot of heat through dehumidification process (unless you get a desiccant dehumidifier).
BC Building Code requires continuous ventilation system for new constructions so that might alleviate moisture problems.

Radiant cooling is proven to work for commercial buildings with limited operable windows and large open space like airports or office towers with little to no fluctuation in room temperature throughout the day.
There is too much uncertainty for radiant cooling in a residential application compared to the commercial application.
Humidity and temperature can fluctuate in short time as occupants can freely open the windows, raising dew point.
Also taking a hot shower, cooking pasta, using dishwasher, etc, will introduce lots of heat and moisture in a relatively small residential space.

During hot days, cold water supply temperature would (should) be increased at the source according to the dew point.
Then, thermostat in room would (should) also reduce the flow rate of water as you introduce more moisture/heat in a room to prevent condensation.
Once the room temperature and humidity increases, supply water temperature will be increased to combat condensation, which may in turn increase room temperature more, which causes supply water temperature to be increased even more, which increases room temp... and so on.

I do not know the actual implementation in 3CP, but it is best to keep windows and shades closed during daytime and shut bathroom doors after taking shower if you want your system to cool the room to max.

[boatman12]

Originally Posted by Blease

I googled radiant cooling and the write-ups I saw were quite promising. It’s described as a newer technology that’s popular in Europe. At least one article described it as an effective way to maintain cool temperatures. The key question though is, do condo units at 3 Civic have a mechanism to reduce humidity from the air. Even if no built-in system exists, condo occupants could always purchase their own dehumidifiers as a means to make the radiant cooling that much more effective.

At P.A. we are required to have a bathroom fan running 8 hrs. a day, 4 hrs. in the morning and 4 hrs. again in the afternoon, in fact it's on a timer. They told us it's to keep the humidity down and it does. Is 3 C.P. going to be the same?

[simgu]

Originally Posted by boatman12

At P.A. we are required to have a bathroom fan running 8 hrs. a day, 4 hrs. in the morning and 4 hrs. again in the afternoon, in fact it's on a timer. They told us it's to keep the humidity down and it does. Is 3 C.P. going to be the same?

I was told during our walkthrough that there is a "silent fan" in the main washroom going 24hr a day.

[Owlfriend]

Originally Posted by simgu

I was told during our walkthrough that there is a "silent fan" in the main washroom going 24hr a day.

Its probably better to have it 24/7, not like we only shower at certain times.

[rokim99]

No sign of 6th amendment
No sign of occupancy permit given and no sign of completion notice
All the walkthrough still has not been completed yet
Prado cafe still not open
Hotel gym and pool still not open
Hotel rooftop still not open

[boatman12]

Originally Posted by Owlfriend

Its probably better to have it 24/7, not like we only shower at certain times.

We can still turn the fan on manually between the set times and it's very quiet and efficient...No steamed up mirrors or shower glass.

[mba_jiade]

Originally Posted by rokim99

No sign of 6th amendment
No sign of occupancy permit given and no sign of completion notice
All the walkthrough still has not been completed yet
Prado cafe still not open
Hotel gym and pool still not open
Hotel rooftop still not open

6th amendment received by email today. sent from conveyance@fifthave.ca

[iron]

Hold onto your pants: sounds like strata fees have doubled.

[rokim99]

Originally Posted by mba_jiade

6th amendment received by email today. sent from conveyance@fifthave.ca

Hahaha yes I am with Colliers ( not fifth Ave) and they told me that they do have the occupancy permit and 6th amendment will be going out soon.

I should not be too negative all the time I guess!

[rokim99]

Originally Posted by iron

Hold onto your pants: sounds like strata fees have doubled.

Whatttt how do you know this??

[simgu]

Prado is opening Monday 7 to 5

[abearbear]

Originally Posted by mba_jiade

6th amendment received by email today. sent from conveyance@fifthave.ca

The amendment is hundreds of pages - is this normal? Has anyone noticed anything to be concerned about?

[Gummozebra]

Originally Posted by abearbear

The amendment is hundreds of pages - is this normal? Has anyone noticed anything to be concerned about?

Yea the strata fees have doubled per the amendment - around $0.55/sq ft as opposed to $0.28/sq ft as promoted by the sales and developer at the early stages. They mentioned this "low strata fee" as a selling point, and I was led to believe lower strata fee due to not having to pay for the amenities (pool, gym) and only pay for usage a la carte at the hotel. Pretty crazy how they can just double it just like that. What are we paying for with this high strata fee? I believe there's already mention of no resident concierge service anymore ... no amenities, ...

[Owlfriend]

Originally Posted by Gummozebra

Yea the strata fees have doubled per the amendment - around $0.55/sq ft as opposed to $0.28/sq ft as promoted by the sales and developer at the early stages. They mentioned this "low strata fee" as a selling point, and I was led to believe lower strata fee due to not having to pay for the amenities (pool, gym) and only pay for usage a la carte at the hotel. Pretty crazy how they can just double it just like that. What are we paying for with this high strata fee? I believe there's already mention of no resident concierge service anymore ... no amenities, ...

So we’re basically paying double strata fees for the concierge’s permanent vacation? Not Cool