Uber for Calgary?

[Surrealplaces]

A thread for the discussion around Uber and whether it's something that we need to push the city on.

For those that aren't familiar with Uber, it's worth checking out. I've never used it, but a friend of mine has used it NYC and Toronto and really likes it. It's service is in cities all over the world.

Calgary doesn't have it, with Taxi Industry/City Hall being the hold up.

Main site
https://www.uber.com/

There is a site offering a petition for those interested in having it here.
https://action.uber.org/calgary/

[floobie]

It's a pretty cool concept. I'm not overly familiar with it, but I've been distantly aware of it for a while.

Reading through their site and policies:

- The idea of both drivers and riders being rated is pretty cool. Drivers can choose riders who have a decent rating and can have some assurance of their safety, and riders can feel the same way about the drivers they hire. Seems like a decent way to keep everyone accountable.
- Automatic, cashless transactions also seem pretty appealing. No arguing, no carrying cash... just very cut and dry.
- Having everything tied to GPS seems great, but, given my experience with Car2Go... I'm concerned about the reliability of it all. With Car2Go, I've had like a 20% success rate finding a car I've reserved with the GPS on the phone app. Half the time, I've had to circle the block to find the car I've reserved, and it's just been nowhere near where the app said it was. Maybe it's better outside of downtown, what with the big buildings obscuring the signal?

I can see why Taxi drivers are pretty opposed to all this, and I don't fully blame them. When Taxi tokens are as expensive as they are, and people actually factor selling them into their retirement plans, I can see why they don't want the rug pulled out from under them. But, at the same time... I really don't like using Taxis in the city. I can't justify the expense. And, I certainly don't get the impression that drivers are held to much of a standard in terms of their driving ability.

Personally, I'm not sure if I'd use Uber much as a rider. But, the idea of making a bit of cash on the side as a driver has its appeal. I'd need to feel very ensured about my safety, but it's an interesting idea.

[Fuzz]

As much as I hate Calgary's taxi situation, we have rules governing them(some of which are even good!) and that everyone should play by the same rules. Claiming they aren't taxi's is ridiculous. It's exactly what they are, just a different business model.

They also seam to be a really slimy company who flout rules in every city they operate in.

[Cowtown_Tim]

I like the idea simply because I don't care for the Taxi monopoly, or maybe we should call it the Taxi Mafia. While I feel bad for those that have paid for their taxi licenses, it comes down to a monopoly. I can see why the city is against this, as they probably collect some good coin on these licenses. Although in the end, we the consumer are the ones paying for it.

[Cowtown_Tim]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

As much as I hate Calgary's taxi situation, we have rules governing them(some of which are even good!) and that everyone should play by the same rules. Claiming they aren't taxi's is ridiculous. It's exactly what they are, just a different business model.

They also seam to be a really slimy company who flout rules in every city they operate in.

Whether the company is slimy or not is for the consumer to judge.

Maybe they this new service is still a taxi service but who cares? If they can do a better job for a cheaper price, then I'm all for it.

[Fuzz]

The reason they are cheaper is because they flout laws. I could drill for oil and sell it to you way cheaper than Imperial Oil does, I just have to skip paying royalties, taxes and ignore environmental and safety regulations.

This is basically how Uber operates.

[Tarsus]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The reason they are cheaper is because they flout laws. I could drill for oil and sell it to you way cheaper than Imperial Oil does, I just have to skip paying royalties, taxes and ignore environmental and safety regulations.

This is basically how Uber operates.

What do you mean by 'flout the laws'? Doing it cheaper by not having to pay for expensive taxi tokens isn't flouting the law. True, it gives them an unfair advantage, and obviously the city would have to find a way to make it fair for everyone. Of course that should also include the consumer who is currently getting ripped off.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Tarsus

What do you mean by 'flout the laws'? Doing it cheaper by not having to pay for expensive taxi tokens isn't flouting the law. True, it gives them an unfair advantage, and obviously the city would have to find a way to make it fair for everyone. Of course that should also include the consumer who is currently getting ripped off.

You mean this law?
LiveryTransport.pdf
Also, look into how they handle insurance. I can bet most Uber drivers don't have proper coverage.

You can also look into how the handle taxes.
http://uberpeople.net/threads/canada...4.14907/page-2

You think most drivers are remitting their GST/HST? I doubt it, Uber certainly isn't.

[artvandelay]

Uber can't get here soon enough - I hope they push ahead with or without the blessing of city council. The taxi monopoly in this city needs to be broken.

[Surrealplaces]

I haven't read through the document and don't plan on it. Most of us here don't have the time to read through it, but it looks like you have read it and understand it.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but if you can parse out the exact sections from the document that explain what laws are broken, it'll add to the discussion.

From my point of view, if it's good enough for other Canadian cities, I don't see why it isn't here. Surely if they are breaking the law in other cities this has already been looked at has it not?

Aside from the legal issues being debated in this thread, I'd have no problem seeing them herein Calgary. I think the whole taxi system could use an overhaul.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You mean this law?
LiveryTransport.pdf
Also, look into how they handle insurance. I can bet most Uber drivers don't have proper coverage.

You can also look into how the handle taxes.
http://uberpeople.net/threads/canada...4.14907/page-2

You think most drivers are remitting their GST/HST? I doubt it, Uber certainly isn't.

[Fuzz]

I haven't read the whole thing either, but this kinda stands out...

No Person shall charge a fare or fee to carry passengers or offer to carry passengers
for a fare or fee unless the Motor Vehicle used or to be used has a valid T.P.L.,
A.T.P.L. or L.P.L. joined to it.

As for the legal issues in other Canadian cities, well Toronto has taken them to court:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/can...305701421.html
And in Quebec they had their offices raided for tax documents;
http://business.financialpost.com/ne...-tax-documents
So all is not well in other cities, I think they are just so new that these issues will take awhile.

Make no mistake, I hate Calgary's taxi situation and I'm not defending them. I just think Uber is trying to operate a taxi company and pretend they aren't one to get around regulations, some of which are to protect citizens.

I also get the feeling they aren't paying all the taxes they should. A quick check on the Uber boards shows that none of the drivers commenting have any clue what they are due to pay, and Uber has provided little guidance. It seams they expect the drivers to pay it, even though Uber are collecting a share of the revenue.

Try this, every time you get in an Uber cab, ask for a receipt with a GST # on it. I suspect the reply will be a look of confusion.

[simster3]

I actually agree with you, Fuzz. I think that Uber should be working with the cities they want to enter to make a system that is able to compete on a fair footing. I would like to see that drivers are required to have a police check, commercial insurance and if necessary a commercial license. Also, I do have to say that I rarely use a cab so it does not bother me either way.

[ByeByeBaby]

Shouldn't this be under Crime in Calgary? Just because it's a massive multinational corporation planning on breaking our laws doesn't make it any different in my books.

[artvandelay]

I don't think the GST issue with Uber is any worse than cab drivers only taking cash because their credit machines are "broken" (but surprisingly start working again after I insist to try).

Happens about one in three times I take a cab.

The insurance issue doesn't bother me, as it's a calculated risk that I'm consciously taking when I decide to patronize Uber rather than a traditional taxi.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

I don't think the GST issue with Uber is any worse than cab drivers only taking cash because their credit machines are "broken" (but surprisingly start working again after I insist to try).

Happens about one in three times I take a cab.

The insurance issue doesn't bother me, as it's a calculated risk that I'm consciously taking when I decide to patronize Uber rather than a traditional taxi.

What happens if an uninsured Uber driver hits you, either as a pedestrian or other driver?

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What happens if an uninsured Uber driver hits you, either as a pedestrian or other driver?

Exactly. Or when your Uber driver hits someone else and they come after you as well in a lawsuit.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What happens if an uninsured Uber driver hits you, either as a pedestrian or other driver?

Originally Posted by lubicon

Exactly. Or when your Uber driver hits someone else and they come after you as well in a lawsuit.

Anytime you get in a car with someone there's always a chance they might not be insured and anytime you drive on a road or cross as a pedestrian you could be hit by another car that doesn't have insurance. Why would an uber driver be any less likely to be uninsured? You can request the driver you want, or the type car, even the color of the car, you can always ask to see the insurance.

My only issue with the uber system would be the tax evasion implications. Although as Artvandelay mentioned, I don't believe regular taxi drivers are completely out of the woods on this either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying uber is perfect or even great, but it would be nice to have a choice.

[Fuzz]

I think the difference in insurance is that Uber drivers assume they are covered, when they may get denied. Apparently while they have a fare, they are covered by Uber insurance(though I think it is only $1 million liability, no damage coverage). Any time they don't have a fare they are on their own insurance. The issue is that many insurance companies won't cover you in his case, you need a special policy because you are still using your vehicle for work.

This is just what I've read in bits and pieces, so maybe not 100% accurate, but it seams reasonable and insurance companies will do all they can to not pay.

I agree that choice would be great. Maybe the city should open up the licenses, maybe a much higher cap, like 5000 or something. You couldn't sell your license, and if you wanted one and all were taken you go on a waiting list. If you don't use the license for maybe a few weeks or month, you forfeit it. Any ride sharing service driver could get these, but would be required to follow the same standards as taxis, such as training, vehicle safety inspections etc.

[simster3]

I am not worried about uninsured drivers. I am worried about improperly insured drivers. You must have insurance to register your car, although a small minority of people cancel their insurance once getting their plates, or renewal stickers. I don't know if there are Uber rules that force you to get commercial insurance to cover your vehicle and passenger. I would assume that if you are using your vehicle for commercial reasons, you need to have proper insurance on it. The vast majority of people do not understand this and therefore would not get insurance.

[Fuzz]

He is telling Uber drivers that they will need to get extra commercial insurance coverage because Uber's policy won't help.

"A good part of it is because of the reliance that is put upon the driver's own policy with their own insurer," Prefontaine said.

"So unless that driver has contacted their insurance company...then any passenger that gets into that vehicle is going to be at risk just as will the driver and a bystander."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...169769?cmp=rss
That needs to be fixed.