CHICAGO | General Developments

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

I give the city tours (by bus) to some of the groups that arrive on the existing Great Lakes cruise ships. I usually meet the groups down at Iroquois Landing on the Calumet River, quite a slog, and quite a security hassle to get in and out of. But once last summer they had docked at Navy Pier. I never quite found out what circumstances allowed it that one time, but not for the other voyages.

I think there are three cruise lines currently (in a normal year) doing Great Lakes cruises, and Viking is coming.

Not sure what you mean by "North Pier." The north lock structure? Or Dime Pier?

I'm glad to hear about Viking - I was looking on google maps, and "North Pier" was listed for the thin east-west pier, just north of the Chicago Harbor locks and south of Polk Bros park at Navy Pier. I was initially confused as I worked in the old North Pier building many years ago, until I reversed and it assumed that the building was named after the pier.
My original point was about beefing up that same pier to allow for larger ships, which would cut out the need to do exactly what you described above, but I assume that the waters are perhaps not deep enough that close to the lakeshore (maybe I'm wrong).

[ORD2010]

Originally Posted by sentinel

I'm glad to hear about Viking - I was looking on google maps, and "North Pier" was listed for the thin east-west pier, just north of the Chicago Harbor locks and south of Polk Bros park at Navy Pier. I was initially confused as I worked in the old North Pier building many years ago, until I reversed and it assumed that the building was named after the pier.
My original point was about beefing up that same pier to allow for larger ships, which would cut out the need to do exactly what you described above, but I assume that the waters are perhaps not deep enough that close to the lakeshore (maybe I'm wrong).

I believe Viking will not be sailing from Chicago, they will have pre and post cruise extensions to Chicago, but they are actually sailing from Milwaukee which was surprising to hear. I'm guessing partially because Chicago doesn't have a proper port for them to use in the city? I'd love to see them docking downtown somewhere

[Mr Downtown]

The tour buses have to be escorted in and out of Iroquois Landing, and sometimes we have to wait on a slow freight train at 95th. Sometimes the company will tell me to "meet the bus" there, and I have to inform them that even if I spend a couple hours on CTA to get to South Chicago, I can't walk in to that location.

Boat draft doesn't seem to be an issue at Navy Pier, which keeps a 23-foot channel clear. Remember actual US Navy ships call there every couple of years. The Great Lakes cruise boats are not all that large. Since real "salties" can and do come through the Welland Canal to reach Lake Calumet or Duluth-Superior, it would seem to be a matter of cruise demand, rather than lock size or bridge clearance.

[ardecila]

Navy Pier Flyover - 07/07/20

Looks like they are framing the new, wider deck for the trail along the lower level. The "tunnels" through the bridge houses are complete.

Also, I read a blurb somewhere that the lower level of the bridge was engineered to carry trains back in the 1930s? I guess that would explain why the bridge is so beefy, and why the lower deck is divided into three roadways instead of two. I'm not sure what kind of trains, maybe they thought the Illinois Central would want to run boxcars to Streeterville warehouses or to boats at Navy Pier?

[Donnie77]

are those support cables temp or are they going to use this bridge to film Ninja Warrior?

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Also, I read a blurb somewhere that the lower level of the bridge was engineered to carry trains back in the 1930s? I guess that would explain why the bridge is so beefy, and why the lower deck is divided into three roadways instead of two. I'm not sure what kind of trains, maybe they thought the Illinois Central would want to run boxcars to Streeterville warehouses or to boats at Navy Pier?

I have never heard this. Do you remember where you read that?

[Rizzo]

I thought I had once read that too, but in the original project description for the bridge it only speaks of allowing clearances for a potential roadway at The “mezzanine” level of the bridge. Raised high enough to clear railroad track at ground level but low enough to easily connect to commercial structures.

https://historicbridges.org/truss/us...rdriveplan.pdf

[Mr Downtown]

TIL. For decades, I've confidently spoken of that lower level having been intended for railroad use—even as I note a few minutes later that double-leaf bascule bridges never proved very suitable for heavy steam locomotives. I probably "learned" that from the late John LaPlante back in the early 1980s when he was reconfiguring the S-curve, and finally putting that lower level to use. But I just dug out a speech given by the Park District's Assistant Chief Engineer to the Illinois Society of Engineers in 1937, and indeed it says "this [future] mezzanine level will serve truck traffic for any future air right development over the [railroad] property."

There was a railroad bridge near here for a few years around 1900, connecting the North Western on the north bank with the Illinois Central on the south bank. When the War Department forced removal of most of Chicago's swing bridges, the railroads apparently didn't think it important enough to rebuild.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Rizzo

I thought I had once read that too, but in the original project description for the bridge it only speaks of allowing clearances for a potential roadway at The “mezzanine” level of the bridge. Raised high enough to clear railroad track at ground level but low enough to easily connect to commercial structures.

https://historicbridges.org/truss/us...rdriveplan.pdf

It's in there. There is a lot of reference to providing adequate clearance at ground level for tracks to pass beneath the mezzanine on what is today the Spire site, but the Commercial Club's Harbor Plan also proposed a rail connection across the river from the Illinois Central to Navy Pier. You can see it dotted in some of the drawings as "Future Harbor Railroad Connection" (PDF page 81).

Looks like it would have run in the east section of the lower deck, with the west and central sections for "commercial traffic" - trucks, etc. It makes sense, why else divide the lower deck into 3 parts rather than two, like the Michigan Ave bridge? The drawings appear to show a single track connection, but it looks like there was room for two tracks should the need arise. I can't say whether the bridge as built could support railroad traffic, certainly the design evolved and they may have reduced the design loads. Ed Bennett's Neoclassical design became Art Deco, etc.

[Rizzo]

Good find. Actually my original thought was the center section was used for two streetcar tracks with roads on either side.

[jpIllInoIs]

So now we know how the long awaited Downtown circulator can get from Navy Pier to norther Grant Park and Columbus Drive.

Originally Posted by ardecila

It's in there. There is a lot of reference to providing adequate clearance at ground level for tracks to pass beneath the mezzanine on what is today the Spire site, but the Commercial Club's Harbor Plan also proposed a rail connection across the river from the Illinois Central to Navy Pier. You can see it dotted in some of the drawings as "Future Harbor Railroad Connection" (PDF page 81).

Looks like it would have run in the east section of the lower deck, with the west and central sections for "commercial traffic" - trucks, etc. It makes sense, why else divide the lower deck into 3 parts rather than two, like the Michigan Ave bridge? The drawings appear to show a single track connection, but it looks like there was room for two tracks should the need arise. I can't say whether the bridge as built could support railroad traffic, certainly the design evolved and they may have reduced the design loads. Ed Bennett's Neoclassical design became Art Deco, etc.

[Mr Downtown]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Ed Bennett's Neoclassical design became Art Deco, etc.

In fact, the first design Hugh Young released (in 1930, as Bennett was being eased out) was less restrained than the final design. Sorry, I've never found a better version of this rendering.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs

So now we know how the long awaited Downtown circulator can get from Navy Pier to norther Grant Park and Columbus Drive.

Honestly they should just build a LRT utilizing the Carroll row, this part of the bridge and linking down onto lower Randolph, through the McCormick busway, to Roosevelt, across to canal and then back up past union station. Would basically circumnavigate the edges of downtown and be extremely useful during the huge events that happen in Grant Park.

[Freefall]

IKEA is looking to take over US malls in high-population urban areas. They're also looking to take advantage of the weakness in the market caused by Covid. Apparently Chicago is high on their list of cities they're looking at.

Described as a “major play” in the U.S. market, Reuters reports Ingka Centres is eyeing locations in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Chicago.


“We will be targeting cities with high populations in these regions. We primarily focus on the acquisition of existing real estate assets and redevelop them into meeting places anchored by an IKEA store and tuned towards the local needs and aspirations in the offer"

Any rumors/speculation of what malls IKEA is looking at in Chicago?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanz.../#273d8d3b5d5c

[lakeshoredrive]

Originally Posted by Freefall

IKEA is looking to take over US malls in high-population urban areas. They're also looking to take advantage of the weakness in the market caused by Covid. Apparently Chicago is high on their list of cities they're looking at.


Any rumors/speculation of what malls IKEA is looking at in Chicago?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanz.../#273d8d3b5d5c

I've always wanted an Ikea in the city. The two in the suburbs are so hard to get to without a car. They could've built one by the west loop area I think.

[Handro]

My sister lives near one of their malls in Italy. I never realized it was an "Ikea mall" when I've gone (although I just looked it up out of curiosity and it is indeed run by Ingka Centres), it seems like just a normal mall but with an Ikea as one of the flagship stores. I'm curious what "play" they want to make that would differentiate them from any other American mall...

[Chi-Sky21]

Elston Microcenter spot......?

[Freefall]

Originally Posted by Handro

I'm curious what "play" they want to make that would differentiate them from any other American mall...

The fact that Ikea is such a destination itself, would be a big driver of traffic. The average person spends 90 minutes at Ikea. You can kill a couple hours at Ikea and then do some shopping for other things while you're there anyway and make a day of it. Ikea's already have a children's center and food options to keep you there as long as possible.

I'm sure they'll still want a bunch of parking, but there's plenty of items that can be hauled away on the CTA. Especially their flat-box items.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Handro

My sister lives near one of their malls in Italy. I never realized it was an "Ikea mall" when I've gone (although I just looked it up out of curiosity and it is indeed run by Ingka Centres), it seems like just a normal mall but with an Ikea as one of the flagship stores. I'm curious what "play" they want to make that would differentiate them from any other American mall...

Yeah it's hard to look at the US retail market and think, "this place really needs more malls"... virtually every American market is oversaturated, and brick/mortar retail is stagnant with the growth of online shopping which Covid is only accelerations. So, not sure what these guys are smoking.

Looking at their Europe properties, they're all very suburban, right off a motorway. So I don't expect Ingka to do urban shopping malls in the US.

I think they could probably find some dying suburban malls to reinvigorate, though. Stratford Square comes to mind. But generally Americans aren't in love with the enclosed mall anymore. Most Americans live in a suburban environment and when they go to shop or dine they're looking for a more traditional urban experience, either in a real city/town or a lifestyle center. Compare that to Europe where most people live in denser neighborhoods and drive out to the malls on the edge during the weekend (this happens a little here too, at Old Orchard, Woodfield, Oakbrook).

[r18tdi]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Looking at their Europe properties, they're all very suburban, right off a motorway. So I don't expect Ingka to do urban shopping malls in the US.

Love to see one in the IMD or Armour Square.. or perhaps off Roosevelt in the South Loop.