Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

There are, but most kids there learn English similar to how kids in Canada learn French. I don't think anybody cares.

Sounds like a bit of a double-standard to me. Chinese only ads in Vancouver are not OK but English only ads in Shanghai are OK?

English is part of the Chinese school curriculum but only a fraction of the population can actually speak and (one assumes) read English.

To lots of people in Shanghai those words in English look as unintelligible to them as Chinese characters look to you. (Assuming you can't read Chinese characters.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

At least that is in an official language. Publicly funded entities like Translink have no business accepting unilingual ads that are not in one of Canada's official languages.

I don't think there is any rule of thumb for this either way, but certainly if authorities in Vancouver wanted to impose English on transit ads they could, given that there is a Canadian precedent with Quebec.

Under Bill 101 transit ads in Quebec have to be in French or at least French predominant. Unless they're something targeted specifically at the anglo community like a TV or radio station, or a newspaper.

Pretty sure anglophone educational institutions are allowed English only ads as well but in practice they tend to make theirs bilingual because they like to try and attract francophone students (with the promise of becoming bilingual).

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by Architype

I would mostly agree with that, but on the other hand, if I was in China and saw an English only ad, I would consider it harmless, but then, would they actually allow it there?

Originally Posted by giallo

Tons. There are a lot of restaurants with English signs with no Chinese written anywhere.

From what I understand, Western businesses in China without Chinese translated names will likely be less successful. So most of them do. The English only ones are usually left that way deliberately for creating a sense of prestige which the wealthy section of the population craves. It isn't done because of being culturally insensitive or rude like those found in major Canadian cities.

[Acajack]

Wouldn't cultural insensitivity or rudeness be in the eye of the beholder?

[Acajack]

I mean, back when there were lots of English only signs in Quebec, someone could easily have made the argument that it was just a "prestige" thing and wasn't in any way meant to be disrespectful or rude to francophones.

[GlassCity]

As I'm sure some of you know, I'm from Ukraine and it (along with Russia and all those countries) have had more and more English appear in the public sphere. This is also mostly done for prestige. Store banners are in English, advertising posters are in English, etc. Even the Russian language is changing, with some existing words being phased out in favour of Englishisms.

I consider this wrong, as I do English in China, or in Quebec. Language is the most obvious spatial representation of culture, and that's why I think it's so important for it to remain local.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mean, back when there were lots of English only signs in Quebec, someone could easily have made the argument that it was just a "prestige" thing and wasn't in any way meant to be disrespectful or rude to francophones.

This prestige thing may or may not be true in various places but the root issue in metro Vancouver, I think, is that if you only speak English and are not Asian there are a bunch of stores that are effectively hard to patronize at all. If you live in a neighbourhood that has become dominated by these stores then you've maybe gone from having 50 stores you can reasonably visit near your house down to 5. I've had this happen in my neighbourhood (which is not in Richmond). I am pretty adventurous and will generally try any store that seems interesting (even if there are no English signs but there are good reviews online). In some they basically don't speak English at all or even seem kind of hostile, and then others are less appealing to me than what they replaced (e.g. places that seem to specialize in various skin bleaching techniques and alternative medicine). The fact is that even though my area has grown, the appeal of local businesses has declined somewhat.

I suspect the dynamic in Shanghai is different. There probably aren't many stores that you'd have trouble deciphering or getting service in as a speaker of the local native language. Shanghai has a tiny immigrant population relative to its size.

I don't necessarily consider the Vancouver situation inherently bad, but it is a matter of degrees. If every store in the city became like these Richmond places overnight this would be a somewhat difficult city for a lot of people to live in. To me, the question seems to be about what the right balance is. I don't think the people who frame this issue as either completely innocuous or inherently horrible are approaching it from a sensible angle.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mean, back when there were lots of English only signs in Quebec, someone could easily have made the argument that it was just a "prestige" thing and wasn't in any way meant to be disrespectful or rude to francophones.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

As I'm sure some of you know, I'm from Ukraine and it (along with Russia and all those countries) have had more and more English appear in the public sphere. This is also mostly done for prestige. Store banners are in English, advertising posters are in English, etc. Even the Russian language is changing, with some existing words being phased out in favour of Englishisms.

I consider this wrong, as I do English in China, or in Quebec. Language is the most obvious spatial representation of culture, and that's why I think it's so important for it to remain local.

Volkswagen's slogan in Quebec being unilingual German for years would be a good example of something done strictly for prestige/image (and it generally works; German engineering is still a selling point, even for the models made in Mexico).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I consider this wrong, as I do English in China, or in Quebec. Language is the most obvious spatial representation of culture, and that's why I think it's so important for it to remain local.

Entirely depends on context. The defining factor is whether or not the language is considered a threat. That's why VW didn't happen to generate a Pastagate here.

A French restaurant in Warsaw could have a menu in French and that would be considered exotic and perfectly tolerable; the same business in exurban Brussels would be attacked for linguistic rudeness and invasiveness.

A Chinese restaurant in downtown Sherbrooke where the staff speaks Chinese only and the menus are in Chinese characters so all customers have to order via signs and guesses would likely be considered amusing and authentic and no one would complain about it. The exact same thing in some areas of BC would cause outrage, for good reason. The only difference is the context.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This prestige thing may or may not be true in various places but the root issue in metro Vancouver, I think, is that if you only speak English and are not Asian there are a bunch of stores that are effectively hard to patronize at all. If you live in a neighbourhood that has become dominated by these stores then you've maybe gone from having 50 stores you can reasonably visit near your house down to 5. I've had this happen in my neighbourhood (which is not in Richmond). I am pretty adventurous and will generally try any store that seems interesting (even if there are no English signs but there are good reviews online). In some they basically don't speak English at all or even seem kind of hostile, and then others are less appealing to me than what they replaced (e.g. places that seem to specialize in various skin bleaching techniques and alternative medicine). The fact is that even though my area has grown, the appeal of local businesses has declined somewhat.

I suspect the dynamic in Shanghai is different. There probably aren't many stores that you'd have trouble deciphering or getting service in as a speaker of the local native language. Shanghai has a tiny immigrant population relative to its size.

I don't necessarily consider the Vancouver situation inherently bad, but it is a matter of degrees. If every store in the city became like these Richmond places overnight this would be a somewhat difficult city for a lot of people to live in. To me, the question seems to be about what the right balance is. I don't think the people who frame this issue as either completely innocuous or inherently horrible are approaching it from a sensible angle.

I can definitely get that.

In the debate in this province over signs and also language of service, one of the classic counter-arguments was "just don't go to those businesses then, go somewhere else". It's relatively simplistic because in many cases things evolve the way you describe, and pretty soon most businesses (including potentially large national and international chains - in the case of Montreal anyway) also end up doing it. So the upshot for someone who doesn't speak the newly imposed language is either learn it (and maybe assimilate to it) or simply move out of the place you've called home.

I know some will respond that no one has a right to expect their neighbourhood or even city to remain unchanged. I understand that but on the other hand I don't necessarily think there is a fundamental right for people to move to an established place and impose their language on unwilling people who are already living there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Volkswagen's slogan in Quebec being unilingual German for years would be a good example of something done strictly for prestige/image (and it generally works; German engineering is still a selling point, even for the models made in Mexico).

Das auto.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Entirely depends on context. The defining factor is whether or not the language is considered a threat. That's why VW didn't happen to generate a Pastagate here.

A French restaurant in Warsaw could have a menu in French and that would be considered exotic and perfectly tolerable; the same business in exurban Brussels would be attacked for linguistic rudeness and invasiveness.

A Chinese restaurant in downtown Sherbrooke where the staff speaks Chinese only and the menus are in Chinese characters so all customers have to order via signs and guesses would likely be considered amusing and authentic and no one would complain about it. The exact same thing in some areas of BC would cause outrage, for good reason. The only difference is the context.

How about a British pub in Sherbrooke with English only signs and service?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How about a British pub in Sherbrooke with English only signs and service?

I suppose it would be only a matter of time before a local version of the famous Air Canada 7up Guy complains about it, but a place like that could likely exist somewhat under the radar in the Lennoxville borough for a while without anyone noticing and I'm sure most people would be okay with it.

In practice though the menus would definitely have French on them -- even if they could get away with it, it would be awfully stupid from a basic business point of view. And you're all but guaranteed to be able to be served by someone who speaks decent French at the very least. Again, that's how things would be regardless of laws; the area here is too francophone for it to make business sense to cut yourself from that pool, and it's too easy to find and hire Anglos who speak okay French.

The West Island is a much bigger critical mass of English than anywhere in the Townships. Law 101 isn't actually that needed here, by Montreal standards.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've had this happen in my neighbourhood (which is not in Richmond). I am pretty adventurous and will generally try any store that seems interesting (even if there are no English signs but there are good reviews online). In some they basically don't speak English at all or even seem kind of hostile, .

Yes, there is that too sometimes. The subtle message is "what the hell is someone of your kind doing in here?"

And of course the whole issue of dual pricing régimes in some places, or certain *better* menu items that are offered to some people but not to others... Sometimes in the latter case there is no malicious intent, and based on the assumption that the un-initiated won't be interested in certain things. But not always.

This type of thing is not supposed to be tolerated when the majority does it to minorities, and rightfully so. But really if we consider it unacceptable, it should be unacceptable for everyone.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by lio45

Entirely depends on context. The defining factor is whether or not the language is considered a threat. That's why VW didn't happen to generate a Pastagate here.

A French restaurant in Warsaw could have a menu in French and that would be considered exotic and perfectly tolerable; the same business in exurban Brussels would be attacked for linguistic rudeness and invasiveness.

A Chinese restaurant in downtown Sherbrooke where the staff speaks Chinese only and the menus are in Chinese characters so all customers have to order via signs and guesses would likely be considered amusing and authentic and no one would complain about it. The exact same thing in some areas of BC would cause outrage, for good reason. The only difference is the context.

This is a good point and I agree with this. Though I question the likelihood of something like your downtown Sherbrooke example happening - no one would go. I don't think the other context you've come up with really exists. It only happens in places where the language really can be a threat. Volkswagen having 2 words in German with the rest of the ad in English is clearly a different case.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This is a good point and I agree with this. Though I question the likelihood of something like your downtown Sherbrooke example happening - no one would go. I don't think the other context you've come up with really exists. It only happens in places where the language really can be a threat. Volkswagen having 2 words in German with the rest of the ad in English is clearly a different case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvquDhsD9gc

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvquDhsD9gc

God I hated those commercials

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This is a good point and I agree with this. Though I question the likelihood of something like your downtown Sherbrooke example happening - no one would go.

There was a little Japanese restaurant that operated for a few years, very authentic, the lady was Japanese and didn't speak much English or French, and her menus were in Japanese with only basic translation. My group of friends and I loved the place. It was in the heart of downtown.

edit: street view from 2009. The sign actually says "Cuisine Japonaise", but she ran the place alone and didn't speak much French.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.40439...2!8i6656?hl=fr

It's not unheard of for someone of a certain ethnicity to run a restaurant mostly in their own language (main language on the menu) for the authenticity factor; as I pointed though it's good for business if you can make sure locals can order reasonably well, but you don't need to go beyond that.

Volkswagen having 2 words in German with the rest of the ad in English is clearly a different case.

Technically, it's entirely in German. It would be equivalent to Renault having "La voiture" as its slogan in Belgian Flanders, or GM of Canada Limited choosing to have "The Car" as its slogan in Quebec.

I think it's getting a pass because it's not perceived as a slippery slope. Also, I'm pretty sure I recall VW using a lot more German than that locally, in the past. Maybe just initiatives from local dealers... In any case, I don't think it ever generated a Pastagate.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And of course the whole issue of dual pricing régimes in some places, or certain *better* menu items that are offered to some people but not to others... Sometimes in the latter case there is no malicious intent, and based on the assumption that the un-initiated won't be interested in certain things. But not always.

Ride sharing is still illegal in BC, but there are many Chinese-language ride sharing apps for metro Vancouver. Supposedly the Passenger Transportation Board here has been cracking down on them lately.

There's also a lot of Chinese-language real estate pre-sale activity. The developer sells out the units at these events before anything goes on the open market. Like I've said, even with the normal real estate "for sale" signs it's common to see a bunch of Chinese characters and "BY APPOINTMENT ONLY". Add in all of the money laundering and proxy buyer concerns and the idea that the whole property market is kind of rigged against certain buyers does not seem far-fetched. You can't just go to another neighbourhood to get a house here, the whole market has been inflated.

This type of thing is not supposed to be tolerated when the majority does it to minorities, and rightfully so. But really if we consider it unacceptable, it should be unacceptable for everyone.

A lot of these arguments about treating minorities well or not having the right to expect your neighbourhood to remain unchanged come down to whether people are sympathetic to a given group or not. Many of the people who say they have zero sympathy for the language changing in an area are the same ones who bemoan gentrification that displaces low income earners and minorities.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can definitely get that.

In the debate in this province over signs and also language of service, one of the classic counter-arguments was "just don't go to those businesses then, go somewhere else". It's relatively simplistic because in many cases things evolve the way you describe, and pretty soon most businesses (including potentially large national and international chains - in the case of Montreal anyway) also end up doing it. So the upshot for someone who doesn't speak the newly imposed language is either learn it (and maybe assimilate to it) or simply move out of the place you've called home.

I know some will respond that no one has a right to expect their neighbourhood or even city to remain unchanged. I understand that but on the other hand I don't necessarily think there is a fundamental right for people to move to an established place and impose their language on unwilling people who are already living there.

I shouldn't take this out of context, but I can't imagine how someone from the first nations will react when he/she sees this...
I'm just saying...