Rural Commuter Rail

[swimmer_spe]

The 3 largest metros in Canada have some sort of commuter rail with mixed success.
Ottawa/Gatineau is the 4th largest.

Should commuter rail be set up?
Maybe.

Who should subsidize it?
The province.

Pick communities 50km from Ottawa. Start with running buses from them to the nearest LRT stations.
Encourage local transit in those communities instead of building massive parking lots. This should mitigate sprawl.

It could be GO service, but maybe different livery.

Once the bus service reaches what 4 bilevels can do, then it is time to consider trains.

The question then is where those trains go to.
By the time it is needed, it may be time to look at bringing trains back to the Union Station, or to build a new one downtown.

[lrt's friend]

I believe that we should now be embarking to offer an all day transit service (hourly) to all the major satellite towns (Rockland, Casselman, Embrun, Russell, Kemptville, Smith's Falls, Carleton Place, Almonte and Arnprior).

The current funding model (municipal) prevents this from happening, so this can only be achieved with some sort of regional transit model similar to GO Transit. I also believe that this is only way to achieve any sort of decent transit to the rural communities within the Ottawa city limits (Metcalfe, Greely, Manotick, Richmond, Carp etc.). Buses serving satellite towns could also serve those rural communities within the city limits.

At the present time, regional rail is a pipe dream and there is no chance of reopening Union Station. Regional transit needs to feed into our urban rail system.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I believe that we should now be embarking to offer an all day transit service (hourly) to all the major satellite towns (Rockland, Casselman, Embrun, Russell, Kemptville, Smith's Falls, Carleton Place, Almonte and Arnprior).

The current funding model (municipal) prevents this from happening, so this can only be achieved with some sort of regional transit model similar to GO Transit. I also believe that this is only way to achieve any sort of decent transit to the rural communities within the Ottawa city limits (Metcalfe, Greely, Manotick, Richmond, Carp etc.). Buses serving satellite towns could also serve those rural communities within the city limits.

At the present time, regional rail is a pipe dream and there is no chance of reopening Union Station. Regional transit needs to feed into our urban rail system.

Why is there no chance?
If you can build LRT under the downtown core, why not regional rail under the core?

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why is there no chance?
If you can build LRT under the downtown core, why not regional rail under the core?

I think people who are skeptical don't see it as physically or technically impossible but rather don't see it as realistic from a cost, potential usage and political support point of view.

Unfortunately, I think the post-pandemic transition to hybrid work that means many people in the office only 1-3 days a week makes commuter rail even harder to justify. The smaller communities outside of Ottawa are more likely to attract fully remote or hybrid workers that are willing to drive to Ottawa on occasion (but perhaps would have been reluctant to do it every day). People who work in person more often/full time or want to be closer to the core will be more likely to choose central neighbourhoods or suburban locations with great access to transit (e.g., one of the train lines).

The city is also likely to be muted in supporting commuter rail, especially if it is costly, when it is trying to get provincial and federal funds for Stage 3 extensions to Kanata and Barrhaven (which are even harder to justify post pandemic).

I really wish there was a strong case for commuter rail because I love those systems in places like Toronto, Montreal and Tokyo but I think our Light Rail system may be as close as we come!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

I think people who are skeptical don't see it as physically or technically impossible but rather don't see it as realistic from a cost, potential usage and political support point of view.

Unfortunately, I think the post-pandemic transition to hybrid work that means many people in the office only 1-3 days a week makes commuter rail even harder to justify. The smaller communities outside of Ottawa are more likely to attract fully remote or hybrid workers that are willing to drive to Ottawa on occasion (but perhaps would have been reluctant to do it every day). People who work in person more often/full time or want to be closer to the core will be more likely to choose central neighbourhoods or suburban locations with great access to transit (e.g., one of the train lines).

The city is also likely to be muted in supporting commuter rail, especially if it is costly, when it is trying to get provincial and federal funds for Stage 3 extensions to Kanata and Barrhaven (which are even harder to justify post pandemic).

I really wish there was a strong case for commuter rail because I love those systems in places like Toronto, Montreal and Tokyo but I think our Light Rail system may be as close as we come!

I agree; the justification for commuter rail has mostly fizzled out in a post-pandemic world. We need to focus on providing good transit to the people who actually use it, that is, those who live in urban areas.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

I think people who are skeptical don't see it as physically or technically impossible but rather don't see it as realistic from a cost, potential usage and political support point of view.

Unfortunately, I think the post-pandemic transition to hybrid work that means many people in the office only 1-3 days a week makes commuter rail even harder to justify. The smaller communities outside of Ottawa are more likely to attract fully remote or hybrid workers that are willing to drive to Ottawa on occasion (but perhaps would have been reluctant to do it every day). People who work in person more often/full time or want to be closer to the core will be more likely to choose central neighbourhoods or suburban locations with great access to transit (e.g., one of the train lines).

The city is also likely to be muted in supporting commuter rail, especially if it is costly, when it is trying to get provincial and federal funds for Stage 3 extensions to Kanata and Barrhaven (which are even harder to justify post pandemic).

I really wish there was a strong case for commuter rail because I love those systems in places like Toronto, Montreal and Tokyo but I think our Light Rail system may be as close as we come!

Honestly, if they ran buses right now at least once a day each way to those communities. that would likely be enough for the next decade. Building up Rail lines to existing infrastructure within Ottawa would be good for a decade or so. That is when the plan to build downtown would make sense. That is easily beyond the 2050s, and who knows how that will look by then.

The other thing they could do right now is utilize Via and find a way for commuter style runs from Toronto and Montreal that would get to the Ottawa Train station at around 8am. That would mean the return of night trains on Via, which isn't such a bad thing.

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Honestly, if they ran buses right now at least once a day each way to those communities.

Many do have that kind of service right now (or did pre pandemic), and they generally are pretty low utilized because they are only daily. I grew up in Merrickville / Kemptville and never once used the bus into the city because it left at something like 5:30 am and got back some time in the evening. If it was viable to use I probably would have used it many times when I was a teenager to meet up with friends in the city, but since it wasn't it was often get driven in by a parent.

I am pro building a regional rail system on old right of ways but I do understand the hesitation, I think building it with Trillium line pilot style stations and vehicles could have potential, but it would still be a large intial cost.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

Many do have that kind of service right now (or did pre pandemic), and they generally are pretty low utilized because they are only daily. I grew up in Merrickville / Kemptville and never once used the bus into the city because it left at something like 5:30 am and got back some time in the evening. If it was viable to use I probably would have used it many times when I was a teenager to meet up with friends in the city, but since it wasn't it was often get driven in by a parent.

I am pro building a regional rail system on old right of ways but I do understand the hesitation, I think building it with Trillium line pilot style stations and vehicles could have potential, but it would still be a large intial cost.

What would be needed to make it viable?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What would be needed to make it viable?

Actual riders.

This idea has potential to make the White Elephant list on the national page.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Actual riders.

This idea has potential to make the White Elephant list on the national page.

Yes Captain Obvious....


I more meant, what is needed to draw ridership and make it a success. For example, how often and at what times would be the best for it to run to fill the bus by the last stop?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes Captain Obvious....


I more meant, what is needed to draw ridership and make it a success. For example, how often and at what times would be the best for it to run to fill the bus by the last stop?

Under what circumstances would you take a bus to a rural area? If you were going to Espanola, what would compel you to leave your truck behind and take a bus? That's probably your answer.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Under what circumstances would you take a bus to a rural area? If you were going to Espanola, what would compel you to leave your truck behind and take a bus? That's probably your answer.

I meant to the city...

So, taking the fact that where I live is rural and no bus service.If I were heading into the city, it would be good.

However, I am talking about Ottawa and the communities around it.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes Captain Obvious....


I more meant, what is needed to draw ridership and make it a success. For example, how often and at what times would be the best for it to run to fill the bus by the last stop?

Putting it somewhere where people are.

The boonies are bad for any mass transit option because the masses don't live there.

What makes GO work is that there are significant cities of hundreds of thousands in the orbit of the GTA that have need to get into/out of the city.

Outside the municipal limits, Ottawa has, what? Arnprior? Hawkesbury? Smiths Falls? Carleton Place?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I meant to the city...

So, taking the fact that where I live is rural and no bus service.If I were heading into the city, it would be good.

However, I am talking about Ottawa and the communities around it.

So what would compel you to take the bus into the city? Why would you leave your truck behind and walk to the closest main road and stand in the cold waiting for a bus?

I don’t think the rural areas around Ottawa are particularly different than other cities. They are very car centric and most people own cars. The existing limited bus services (usually a morning bus into Ottawa and an afternoon bus back) have a very niche market. Anything that would attract significant ridership would require people who own cars to leave them at home.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So what would compel you to take the bus into the city? Why would you leave your truck behind and walk to the closest main road and stand in the cold waiting for a bus?

I don’t think the rural areas around Ottawa are particularly different than other cities. They are very car centric and most people own cars. The existing limited bus services (usually a morning bus into Ottawa and an afternoon bus back) have a very niche market. Anything that would attract significant ridership would require people who own cars to leave them at home.

Mostly I don't understand the concept writ large.

One lives in a distant small town/rural area because they want the low cost for amount of space/low service/low tax lifestyle. That's fine, but I see no reason why we should impose these services/costs on people who:

a) Don't really want them; or
b) Want an suburban/urban lifestyle subsidized by someone else.

Group (a) is easy. They have no interest in the service or paying for it. They'll just transport themselves into the city and accept that living in the boonies means that you get lots of space and minimal services.

Group (b) is a group of inveterate whiners who want everything and someone else to pay for it. Subsidizing a group who will inefficiently use services bleeds out more productive uses of money. Asking them to take on the whole cost means that the service is DOA, because stuff that doesn't scale needs a critical mass of people to make work. Which will basically destroy the concept of rural living, because people flock to the exurbs when they can. Might as well keep them closer to the city to make things more efficient.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Putting it somewhere where people are.

The boonies are bad for any mass transit option because the masses don't live there.

What makes GO work is that there are significant cities of hundreds of thousands in the orbit of the GTA that have need to get into/out of the city.

Outside the municipal limits, Ottawa has, what? Arnprior? Hawkesbury? Smiths Falls? Carleton Place?

I asked the question to highlight where and what is needed.
Where would the bus stop? Just in those places, or would there be intermediate stops?
How often?

Originally Posted by acottawa

So what would compel you to take the bus into the city? Why would you leave your truck behind and walk to the closest main road and stand in the cold waiting for a bus?

I don’t think the rural areas around Ottawa are particularly different than other cities. They are very car centric and most people own cars. The existing limited bus services (usually a morning bus into Ottawa and an afternoon bus back) have a very niche market. Anything that would attract significant ridership would require people who own cars to leave them at home.

As someone who is retired, my truck moves when I need it for truck things. If it does not need to be hauled or towed, it does not move.
My car, I use for groceries or other things.
So, I am a bad example. My wife on the other hand would be a good example as she has a regular job. She works in an office so a bus that would get her into town better than her car is what is needed.

Originally Posted by thewave46

Mostly I don't understand the concept writ large.

One lives in a distant small town/rural area because they want the low cost for amount of space/low service/low tax lifestyle. That's fine, but I see no reason why we should impose these services/costs on people who:

a) Don't really want them; or
b) Want an suburban/urban lifestyle subsidized by someone else.

Group (a) is easy. They have no interest in the service or paying for it. They'll just transport themselves into the city and accept that living in the boonies means that you get lots of space and minimal services.

Group (b) is a group of inveterate whiners who want everything and someone else to pay for it. Subsidizing a group who will inefficiently use services bleeds out more productive uses of money. Asking them to take on the whole cost means that the service is DOA, because stuff that doesn't scale needs a critical mass of people to make work. Which will basically destroy the concept of rural living, because people flock to the exurbs when they can. Might as well keep them closer to the city to make things more efficient.

You highlight something that should be said.
I do not think a rural commuter system should be funded by Ottawa. It should be funded by the places it goes and the province. Kind of like how Regaud, QC no longer has commuter service to Montreal.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As someone who is retired, my truck moves when I need it for truck things. If it does not need to be hauled or towed, it does not move.
My car, I use for groceries or other things.
So, I am a bad example. My wife on the other hand would be a good example as she has a regular job. She works in an office so a bus that would get her into town better than her car is what is needed.

So what would it take for a bus to get into town better than a car?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The 3 largest metros in Canada have some sort of commuter rail with mixed success.
Ottawa/Gatineau is the 4th largest.

Should commuter rail be set up?
Maybe.

Who should subsidize it?
The province.

Pick communities 50km from Ottawa. Start with running buses from them to the nearest LRT stations.
Encourage local transit in those communities instead of building massive parking lots. This should mitigate sprawl.

It could be GO service, but maybe different livery.

Once the bus service reaches what 4 bilevels can do, then it is time to consider trains.

The question then is where those trains go to.
By the time it is needed, it may be time to look at bringing trains back to the Union Station, or to build a new one downtown.

Toronto and Montreal already had commuter services run by CN and CP that the government took over in the 60s and 70s If commuter rail services ever existed in the Ottawa area they have been gone a lot longer than that.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So what would it take for a bus to get into town better than a car?

For me?
Well, right now, it is 20km to the nearest bus. That bus is a milk run to the city, which is another 20km.
An express bus, running once an hour would be good enough for me to use the car less. I am not expecting them to go by my house.

Interestingly though, they do have a bus that does go to further rural areas, but then just connects to the milk run bus.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Toronto and Montreal already had commuter services run by CN and CP that the government took over in the 60s and 70s If commuter rail services ever existed in the Ottawa area they have been gone a lot longer than that.

I know the history of the other systems.
Possibly some of the old CN/CP routes could have been utilized by commuters back then, but I don't know enough about them.

[swimmer_spe]

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/ed...do&usp=sharing

I did this map up a few years ago.
Something along these lines would be needed if commuter rail was to be successful.
The reality is, there population would not support rail.