Where Is The Rust Belt?

[Acajack]

Here is a photo tour of Wallaceburg, a town in SW Ontario:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2YftVfNys0

Other places like Brantford and even the non-touristy (larger) part of Niagara Falls (Ontario) can also feel pretty rust belt-y.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

yeah, throw uptsate ny in with that as well. not sure how exactly it overlapped the midwestern rust belt era with steel and big auto though. some of it declined long before and some after.

Yeah, I think upstate NY is pretty solidly understood to be rustbelt by most... though most don't consider western Mass to be... even though it undoubtedly is. It has far more in common with eastern upstate NY than it does eastern Mass/Boston sphere of influence.

Upstate/western NY (save Buffalo) was never a huge primary steel producer (though there were/are mills), but rather a very diverse mix of manufacturing (fabricated metal products, machinery, tools, paper, construction equip, polymers, electronics, chemicals, etc.). Lots of big plants... and medium and small manufacturers. And many directly and indirectly supplying and tied to the auto and primary steel industries... making the myriad components for cars and trucks and taking steel and turning it into specialty products. So massive downturns in those two primary industries obviously had ripple effects throughout the region.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Don't forget western Mass. It's probably the current northern eastern extent of the "rustbelt" So many people think Massachusetts and they think Boston. It's nothing like Boston. Decline in manufacturing activity and jobs, population, property values, educational attainment, public health, infrastructure, etc. have been constants in W Mass for decades now.

But Western Mass, like adjacent parts of Upstate NY, CT, and VT, is quite scenic, so has found a new life for weekenders, tourists and other leisure pursuits. This isn't really an option for, say, Toledo, or Fort Wayne. It also helps being within a few hours of NYC. And lots of little colleges, like Amherst and Williams, and cultural institutions, like MassMoca and Tanglewood.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

A lot of those mid-size southwestern Ontario cities feel similar to places across the border in Michigan or New York that would be considered Rust Belt, and some even look "rusty". It's actually kind of interesting that the most economically dynamic region in Canada shares the region with some of the most stagnant areas in the U.S.

Ya it is kind of weird when you think of it..I think it can be attributed to Canada's relatively small economy..There isn't really a lot of choices..There isn't a sunbelt to drain away talent. so people are more apt to stay put.That's why maybe a city like Hamilton never really stagnated, and made it work for itself. That, and a city like Toronto acts like a "turn key"everything city and is diversified as a result..Movies, fashion, music, theatre, finance are all there. We don't have a music city like Nashville, nor silicon valley..High tech is spread out amongst a few cities here. I dunno, I'm just throwing it out there as to why some Southern Ontario cities ,while rusty, don't have the same blight and abandonment. As far as urban area choices, our freedom of movement is a double edge sword if you have nowhere to go to.

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Hamilton might be a small glimpse into what some other rust belt cities would look like if there wasn't a Sunbelt to lure hordes of people away. A city that had obviously passed its heyday and features the social problems arising from the loss of numerous manufacturing jobs, but also never saw mass exodus or the abandonment that leads to urban prairie in the city centre.

Exactly!

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Razor

Y I dunno, I'm just throwing it out there as to why some Southern Ontario cities ,while rusty, don't have the same blight and abandonment.

I think there are some pretty obvious differences.

No Sunbelt, less "winner take all" social darwinism, no black-white issues and white flight, no school issues, and higher rates of immigration. Hamilton, Windsor, Niagara Falls are still fairly poor and deprived, relatively speaking, but there's no obvious reason why people would flee. For what purpose? And where?

But even in the U.S., there are relatively few metros that have actually shrunk. Youngstown and a few others. Most of the rusty metros are just long-term stagnant.

[Centropolis]

media.giphy.com

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think there are some pretty obvious differences.

No Sunbelt, less "winner take all" social darwinism, no black-white issues and white flight, no school issues, and higher rates of immigration. Hamilton, Windsor, Niagara Falls are still fairly poor and deprived, relatively speaking, but there's no obvious reason why people would flee. For what purpose? And where?

But even in the U.S., there are relatively few metros that have actually shrunk. Youngstown and a few others. Most of the rusty metros are just long-term stagnant.

Windsor and those other cities are far from poor and deprived, especially compared to some of the rust belt cities in the States. They are all growing with relatively healthy economies. Metro Windsor is growing faster than it has in 30 years, adding about 5,000 new residents a year now. It was the third fastest growing metro in the country last year, with a 2.5% growth rate.


https://windsorstar.com/news/local-n...-latest-census

[Acajack]

The US-Canada Auto Pact, which was in effect from the mid-1960s until the WTO ruled it incompatible with international trade rules, also played a huge role in preventing southern Ontario cities from going through rust belt decline and blight like many places on the other side of the border did.

Coincidentally, many of those Ontario cities haven't fared so well in the Auto Pact's absence since the turn of the century.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

One other advantage that Southern Ontario has is that it acts as the De Facto "Education Belt" in Canada. London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton, Guelph, Toronto are all within 100 miles of each other and each feature student populations of 40,000+ (except for Guelph).

while the rust belt certainly isn't america's "education belt", it's no slouch in the higher education department. in addition to some of the better public universities with the big 10 giants (U. of Michigan, U. of Wisconsin, U. of Illinois, Ohio State, Penn State, Purdue, etc.), the region is also home to some top notch private universities as well (U. of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell, Washington U., Carnegie Mellon, U. of Rochester, Case Western Reserve, Syracuse, U. of Pittsburgh, etc.).

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by north 42

Windsor and those other cities are far from poor and deprived, especially compared to some of the rust belt cities in the States. They are all growing with relatively healthy economies. Metro Windsor is growing faster than it has in 30 years, adding about 5,000 new residents a year now. It was the third fastest growing metro in the country last year, with a 2.5% growth rate.


https://windsorstar.com/news/local-n...-latest-census

Those cities don't feature the same degree of in-your-face social dysfunction that some of their American neighbours do, none of them are ranked among the most dangerous cities in the country for example. They still former manufacturing towns that feature lower relative incomes and above average unemployment and it's definitely visually noticeable. That doesn't mean they aren't improving and still adding population.

Oshawa actually maintains one of the higher household incomes in the country, but that will likely change in the near future with the closing of the GM plant.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

while the rust belt certainly isn't america's "education belt", it's no slouch in the higher education department. in addition to some of the better public universities with the big 10 giants (U. of Michigan, U. of Wisconsin, U. of Illinois, Ohio State, Penn State, Purdue, etc,), the region is also home to some top notch private universities as well (U. of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell, Washington U., Carnegie Mellon, U. of Rochester, Case Western Reserve, Syracuse, U. of Pittsburgh, etc.).

No doubt, and the cities that feature the prominent universities have clearly performed better than their counterparts. One would think that Ohio State is a massive contributor to why Columbus continues to grow while the other Ohio cities have stagnated. There are just way more cities along the U.S. rust belt that obviously all can't feature large educational institutions. Whereas in SW Ontario, every major city along The 401 from Windsor to Toronto has a school with students and faculty that makes up a sizeable portion of the population. There aren't any Erie, PA sized cities that missed the boat so to say. Funny enough, the largest town on the 401 corridor that doesn't feature an independent school, Brantford, is also probably also the most visually depressed.

edit: My comparison was off, because it turns out Brantford is almost exactly Erie-sized.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Those cities don't feature the same degree of in-your-face social dysfunction that some of their American neighbours do, none of them are ranked among the most dangerous cities in the country for example. They still former manufacturing towns that feature lower relative incomes and above average unemployment and it's definitely visually noticeable. That doesn't mean they aren't improving and still adding population.

Oshawa actually maintains one of the higher household incomes in the country, but that will likely change in the near future with the closing of the GM plant.

There is nothing poor or deprived about Windsor Ontario, the medium income is over $65,000, the average GDP growth is 3.4% over the last few years, the unemployment rate in Windsor is less than Toronto.

If Windsor is poor and deprived New York City is a flaming shit-hole with an average economic growth rate of just 2.4%, a medium income of $57,000 and a rapidly declining population.

What city in north America does not have a heavy manufacturing history? Even Toronto still relies much on it. This idea of some magical major populated area without manufacturing is a dumb elitist neoliberal myth.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

But Western Mass, like adjacent parts of Upstate NY, CT, and VT, is quite scenic, so has found a new life for weekenders, tourists and other leisure pursuits. This isn't really an option for, say, Toledo, or Fort Wayne. It also helps being within a few hours of NYC. And lots of little colleges, like Amherst and Williams, and cultural institutions, like MassMoca and Tanglewood.

Yeah, definitely. The scenic/tourism opportunities and related business aspect is true to an extent in PA rustbelt areas as well. Scranton-WB and NE PA are in close proximity to and receive their fair share of weekenders and tourists to the Poconos and PA northern tier wilds. Erie gets literally millions of visitors to Presque isle every year. And Pittsburgh region is at the doorstep to the Laurel Highlands/Alleghenies.

Michigan along the lakeshores also has gorgeous scenery/tourism industry, though it seems to me that most of Michigan’s rusty cities and towns (save Detroit) are further inland. But like you say Ohio and Indiana don’t score too high on the scenery scale. Toledo is kinda on the Lake, but it’s by far the worst part of the it... it’s more like lagoon there... shallow and polluted where two rivers drain into it, bringing all the natural sediment, but also all the nasty fertilizer and shit. Never been to Ft. Wayne, but I can’t imagine it being to pretty given it’s location.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

But Western Mass, like adjacent parts of Upstate NY, CT, and VT, is quite scenic, so has found a new life for weekenders, tourists and other leisure pursuits. This isn't really an option for, say, Toledo, or Fort Wayne. It also helps being within a few hours of NYC. And lots of little colleges, like Amherst and Williams, and cultural institutions, like MassMoca and Tanglewood.

Yes and no. Some of the small towns have found new life as vacation and tourist areas but they are typically lakefront and/ or some other point of interest. This weeds out a lot of towns. Most Upstate NY cities are not near lakes or mountain. Even in VT which is famous for its quaint postcard countryside but no shortage of blighted towns either. Western MA has some quaint areas but it's pretty beat up there as well. Western CT has the benefit of being in NYC metro.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

No doubt, and the cities that feature the prominent universities have clearly performed better than their counterparts. One would think that Ohio State is a massive contributor to why Columbus continues to grow while the other Ohio cities have stagnated. There are just way more cities along the U.S. rust belt that obviously all can't feature large educational institutions. Whereas in SW Ontario, every major city along The 401 from Windsor to Toronto has a school with students and faculty that makes up a sizeable portion of the population. There aren't any Erie, PA sized cities that missed the boat so to say. Funny enough, the largest town on the 401 corridor that doesn't feature an independent school, Brantford, is also probably also the most visually depressed.

edit: My comparison was off, because it turns out Brantford is almost exactly Erie-sized.

That’s an interesting point about Ontario “rustbelt” cities and presence of major universities there as anchoring/stabilizing forces in mid sized and smaller cities. And funny that you mention Erie as a size example since universities are one of the major reasons Erie never declined to the extent that other cities have. While it doesn’t have a major university, Erie hosts an outsized number of higher ed institutions: two catholic universities Mercyhurst and Gannon, a state university Edinboro, a 4-year Penn State campus Behrend, a highly-selective liberal arts college Allegheny, and the nation’s largest medical school LECOM. Even though Erie is about as rusty as they come, there’s no doubt the population loss and situation would be a lot worse if they didn’t exist there.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by JManc

Yes and no. Some of the small towns have found new life as vacation and tourist areas but they are typically lakefront and/ or some other point of interest. This weeds out a lot of towns. Most Upstate NY cities are not near lakes or mountain. Even in VT which is famous for its quaint postcard countryside but no shortage of blighted towns either. Western MA has some quaint areas but it's pretty beat up there as well. Western CT has the benefit of being in NYC metro.

That’s true. But do you think they’re better off than Ohio/Indiana cities and towns because of their locations closer to natural tourist amenities and proximity to the east coast?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

That’s true. But do you think they’re better off than Ohio/Indiana cities and towns because of their locations closer to natural tourist amenities and proximity to the east coast?

No. About the same. It's just that Upstate NY/ VT are magnitudes prettier than most of OH and IN. Tourists flock to specific areas; Woodstock VT, Peterborough NH, Old Forge NY, Saratoga Springs NY, New Canaan CT, etc. and then leave.

Utica which is the closest city to the Adirondacks and you have to go through there via the Thruway or Union Station but I bet the benefit they see from tourism is minimal at best. Syracuse is the closest airport and they are also fairly close to Finger Lakes as well but I doubt they really benefit either.

[flar]

I'd put Windsor, Chatham, Wallaceburg, Sarnia, London, St. Thomas, Brantford, Hamilton, Welland, Niagara Falls, and Port Colbourne into the Canadian rustbelt. All of them feature large abandoned industrial areas, old ramshackle housing, deserted commercial areas and remnants of a blue collar factory worker culture.

[suburbanite]

It doesn't fit as well geographically, but you could probably add Owen Sound to that list. I drive by this on the way to my parent's place on Georgian Bay quite often, always thought it looks like it could be straight out of St. Louis or something.



Rundown rowhouse across from a demolished factory? Textbook rust belt.

The downtown isn't too bad but still leaves a lot to be desired. It sees enough activity from surrounding cottage country to keep it afloat.

[edale]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Yeah, definitely. The scenic/tourism opportunities and related business aspect is true to an extent in PA rustbelt areas as well. Scranton-WB and NE PA are in close proximity to and receive their fair share of weekenders and tourists to the Poconos and PA northern tier wilds. Erie gets literally millions of visitors to Presque isle every year. And Pittsburgh region is at the doorstep to the Laurel Highlands/Alleghenies.

Michigan along the lakeshores also has gorgeous scenery/tourism industry, though it seems to me that most of Michigan’s rusty cities and towns (save Detroit) are further inland. But like you say Ohio and Indiana don’t score too high on the scenery scale. Toledo is kinda on the Lake, but it’s by far the worst part of the it... it’s more like lagoon there... shallow and polluted where two rivers drain into it, bringing all the natural sediment, but also all the nasty fertilizer and shit. Never been to Ft. Wayne, but I can’t imagine it being to pretty given it’s location.

I don't think Erie and Pittsburgh's nearby wilderness belong in the same conversation as Upstate NY, Vermont, Western Mass, and northern/western Michigan. I mean, Erie is certainly no different than many of the Ohio lakeshore towns, and I have to imagine it receives far fewer tourists than Ohio's Lake Erie islands- especially Put-In-Bay. Considering all of Pittsburgh is basically nestled in the Appalachian mountains/foothills, I don't think people there would be drawn to whatever beauty could be found in the Alleghenies. Ohio has some beautiful areas of its own (in addition to the Lake Erie coastline and islands) like the Hocking Hills, and portions of the state are close to beautiful areas in WV, Michigan, and even Kentucky. None of these areas compete with the Berkshires of the world, but neither does anything in Western PA.