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View Poll Results: Should Canada still see the British Monarch as its own?
Continue to recognize the Monarchy 72 39.13%
Get rid of it 97 52.72%
Split Royal Family to reign Commonwealth members 15 8.15%
Voters: 184. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 2:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Well then. I suppose it would be just fine if we had a Prime Minister living in Nigeria. As long as he has Canadian citizenship, everything is cool, right?



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So, then how exactly do we "serve" the royals? I'm pretty sure nothing I've ever done has served them in any way.
Canadians serve the interest of the Crown, i.e. Canada.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 2:40 AM
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In any event, the 1982 Constitution makes it virtually impossible to get rid of the monarchy, since it requires the unanimous approval of the federal Parliament and all of the provinces.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 3:34 AM
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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
If it weren't for the crown and our loyalty to the crown, we would have been invaded and annexed as part of the states in 1812. We owe quite a lot to the monarchy and the commonwealth.
Something's wrong... I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[QUOTE=The Gibbroni;5733602]
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
.

I don't serve any crown and I never will!

As far as I'm concerned the royals can go fuck themselves.. which is exactly what these inbreds have been doing for centuries.
I love having the Monarchy around for one simple reason: its mere presence is enough to send Quebec Republicans into a spitting, maniacal rage. And for what? Do people actually think a home-grown executive would change anything? We don't even pay to keep the House of Windsor around, which makes their deep-seated hatred even more nonsensical.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
Something's wrong... I agree with you wholeheartedly.


I love having the Monarchy around for one simple reason: its mere presence is enough to send Quebec Republicans into a spitting, maniacal rage. And for what? Do people actually think a home-grown executive would change anything? We don't even pay to keep the House of Windsor around, which makes their deep-seated hatred even more nonsensical.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 12:22 PM
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We don't even pay to keep the House of Windsor around, which makes their deep-seated hatred even more nonsensical.
It is not an astronomical amount but we do pay for regular royal visits and such.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 12:27 PM
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I love having the Monarchy around for one simple reason: its mere presence is enough to send Quebec Republicans into a spitting, maniacal rage. .
They are actually smaller in number than most people in the ROC seem to think. The monarchy is very much a non-issue in Quebec, and most people are simply indifferent to it. If they think about it at all, it's that it is a bit of a joke.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
They are actually smaller in number than most people in the ROC seem to think. The monarchy is very much a non-issue in Quebec, and most people are simply indifferent to it. If they think about it at all, it's that it is a bit of a joke.

I think that rings true for the ROC as well. I can't remember the last time the royals came up in casual conversation. It's a non-issue to virtually everyone.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post
I've been thinking about this for a while but wanted to see what many of you felt about the matter. The recent Queen's Jubilee has raised up the debate again for me.I understand that Queen Elizabeth is the head of state for not only the UK and Canada but for the whole Commonwealth, and also that she reigns instead of rules. However should this system continue because of heritage or should it stop? I was also thinking of a hybrid idea. The Royal family is pretty large and one within it can live their whole lives without reaching the throne. Why not let them disperse to the other wealthy countries of the Commonwealth to reign? Canada, as well as Australia, New Zealand,etc can have family members of their own instead of relying on one monarch. However, there may be a problem with this, but in essence which choice is the best in your opinion?
Oh good, someone else with the same idea as me (and Andrew Coyne, and a few others). I have a far easier time defending the concept of monarchy in general than I do of the particular arrangement we have in Canada. Having one's monarch normally resident overseas is admittedly a strange arrangement. In the time of Empire when few got to see the monarch anyway it probably didn't matter much, but it does now. Honestly I wish that Queen Victoria had just sent one of her younger sons our way in 1867 and been done with it.

We lose out on some things by not having the monarch resident, such as the weekly meeting between the PM and Queen. Maybe Stephen Harper would be a bit more mellow if he met with the monarch every week - and meeting with the Governor General just isn't the same since the GG is only around for a few years and is essentially an appointment of either that PM or the previous one. A side benefit to a resident monarch is that we would get to avoid all the gushing of the political class whenever a royal shows up; no politician in Britain goes in for the ridiculous speeches that seem to characterize royal visits here. We also lose out on the ceremonial aspect of the state; there is just something different, almost inexplicable, about receiving something like the Order of Canada from the monarch compared to the Governor General or of the monarch being present at Remembrance Day commemorations and visiting sites of disasters. The Governor General, who is essentially a public official, just does not have the same, well, je ne sais quoi, as a royal on these sorts of occasions, although some of the earlier governor generals drawn from the aristocracy probably had it part way, with examples such as Lord Stanley or the Marquess of Lorne.


My choice for who to next put on the throne of Canada would be Peter Phillips, Princess Anne's son. He's the Queen's eldest grandchild and since he has married a Canadian their daughters (Savannah and Isla) are Canadian by ancestry. He is eleventh in line to the throne right now, but that apparent distant is mainly because of the current rules of male primogeniture succession (hypothetically, were the rules changed and applied retroactively, he would rise to fifth) which I am sure we would change as part of shifting the succession to someone other than Charles. If Princess Anne were not so closely associated with things British (including being on the British Olympic team), she might otherwise be a fair choice. With two daughters, the foundings of a dynasty are probably secure, but his sister Zara and any of her descendants could also be included for insurance.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 1:15 PM
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My dedication is to the monarchy before the country. If we lose the monarchy I would have a hard time justifying staying here.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
My dedication is to the monarchy before the country. If we lose the monarchy I would have a hard time justifying staying here.
Interesting sentiment.

While I see value in retaining our monarchy, for all practical purposes Canada is its own country (and one of the greatest on the planet) for other reasons. Remove the monarchy and I don't see much changing in everyday life for decades if not centuries. We're not suddenly going to give up on everything that makes this country great simply because of a change in head of state.

After all, we're not the US.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 2:12 PM
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May God bless Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, the United Kingdom and her other Commonwealth realms. Long may she reign.

No finer example of prolonged and dignified public service exists. She defines the monarchy and provides a strong counterpoint to those republicans who (wrongly) believe that an elected head of state (a mere politician) would serve us better. What foolishness that would be!!
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 4:57 PM
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You cannot fundamentally change an office which works centrally within a system without making significant changes to the system itself. This kind of systemic change would be worth it if the system we have currently didn't work. But it does work.

If you're talking about replacing our system of government with something that more closely resembles the US, forget it. It's almost impossible. No government would ever vote to make itself redundant.

Which brings me to this......how is Canada's constitutional monarchy system fundamentally failing Canada?
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Overground View Post
You cannot fundamentally change an office which works centrally within a system without making significant changes to the system itself. This kind of systemic change would be worth it if the system we have currently didn't work. But it does work.

If you're talking about replacing our system of government with something that more closely resembles the US, forget it. It's almost impossible. No government would ever vote to make itself redundant.

Which brings me to this......how is Canada's constitutional monarchy system fundamentally failing Canada?
You already asked that question and had it addressed in this thread's predecessor. This time, however, you added a twist in the form of a false claim that Canada would need to abandon the constitutional monarchy system and move toward US style government in order to have a Canadian-based head of state. That obviously isn't correct given that Britain has a domestic-based head of state, and it was the world's first major constitutional monarchy.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 8:50 PM
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Why do people always think the system needs such a massive shift? Here's a cost-effective and simple idea:

1. Declare our intention to become a Republic.

2. If we can create a Constitution without the support of all the provinces (Quebec), then we can create a Republic without the support of all the provinces.

3. Officially change documents to show that the Governor-General will henceforth be known as the President (or Secretary-General if people don't like President), and make it an electable position.

4. Change all references from "The Crown" to "The State".



Voila.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 9:05 PM
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Why would we want to become a republic if all we wanted was to not have a foreign-based head of state? That's a bit like throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 9:39 PM
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Personally I think it's kind of cool that when I rent a car for work the name I'm supposed to put down is "Her Majesty the Queen" (I work for the Province). So for that reason alone I say keep it.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 9:45 PM
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Why couldn't you do that if we had a Canadian-based monarch? The question of the thread pertains to recognising the British-based monarchy, not monarchy altogether.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Why would we want to become a republic if all we wanted was to not have a foreign-based head of state? That's a bit like throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.
Well you see, I'm a republican at heart. However, I could support a truly Canadian Monarchy since it would at least be Canadian.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2012, 3:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Why do people always think the system needs such a massive shift?
Probably because it does, once you start thinking it through.

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Here's a cost-effective and simple idea:

1. Declare our intention to become a Republic.

2. If we can create a Constitution without the support of all the provinces (Quebec), then we can create a Republic without the support of all the provinces.
I'm sure that will go down well.

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3. Officially change documents to show that the Governor-General will henceforth be known as the President (or Secretary-General if people don't like President), and make it an electable position.
It's at this step where all hell breaks lose.

All of the executive powers that the Prime Minister and Cabinet currently exercise are done under the rubric of the "Governor-in-Council", which is to say delegated from the Governor General and ultimately the monarch. The only thing stopping the Governor General from using them himself is convention, which is essentially based on the fact that his position and that of the monarch are unelected so the powers are instead exercised by someone who is accountable to Parliament (at least in theory, omnibus bills notwithstanding).

But make the 'Governor' in "Governor-in-Council" elected and suddenly that convention will cease to have much meaning, especially if directly elected by the public at large. You would then have a single individual with a mandate directly from the people versus a prime minister who has a mandate from Parliament, which is an indirect mandate. It would not take long to have a Prime Minister and President from two different parties, especially with the current first-past-the post system or a preferential ballot system, and/or if Parliamentary and Presidential elections are significantly spaced in time.

How do you get a budget passed in such circumstances? In the US, they just have to keep trying to work it out, so they end up with either deadlocks or lots of riders and pork barrelling. But here, without any other changes to the Constitution, the President would have the power to dissolve Parliament - one of the few powers still reserved to the Crown - and try for a more compliant Parliament in a general election. The Governor General also has the power to refuse to sign bills into law, a power that is never used right now but could well be by an elected President, and, again, unlike in the US, there is no possibility of Parliamentary override to a veto.

Another issue is with appointments. To some degree, the Prime Minister is restrained in making appointments to bodies like the Supreme Court by dint of the fact that he is doing so in the Queen's name: contemplating appointing a partisan hack to the SCC would be incredibly bad form and might result in a minor constitutional crisis in which the GG/monarch is put in the position of having to refuse to appoint the candidate. Since we generally like to avoid that kind of embarrassment all round, PMs generally don't offer up highly questionable candidates (though Liberal ones seem to like pushing it). But strip away the royal dimension acting as a restraint and the President - not the Prime Minister any longer, the President having resumed the powers of the Governor-in-Council - might well appoint whomever he pleases, and without the elaborate system of confirmation hearings that the Americans have we'd be guaranteed to have a Supreme Court even more politicized than the American one. That might sound odd given how politicized the American Supreme Court seems to us now, but consider that at least some American Supreme Court justices have had to get confirmation from the party opposite the President who appointed them, whereas that would not be the case here.

An unreformed Senate would probably become even more inane than it already is.

Or take appointments of the Lieutenant Governors. Here's where some real opportunities for fedprov mischief present themselves. The Lieutenant Governors are appointed by the Governor General on the advice of the relevant Premier, but with a directly elected president up against an indirectly elected premier, such niceties of royalist convention could be shown the door. There's nothing to stop the President from appointing a bagman as Lieutenant Governor, especially if the province is run by a premier of another party or one whom is particularly disliked (think Harper and McGuinty). Since the Lieutenant Governor has the same powers to refuse to refuse assent and dissolve the legislature as well as make appointments... well, as I said, the opportunities for some real mischief present themselves.


The upshot is that you cannot simply pull out the monarch and the Governor General from the system and replace them with an elected head of state and hope all will continue as it has. You will have fundamentally changed the dynamic at the top of the system by changing the legitimacy of the players and ultimately their roles and relative powers. The eternal proposals to reform the Senate are often countered - not without some merit - on the grounds that an elected Senate would have more legitimacy and might start deadlocking the Commons all the while without resolving the level of representation issue, but do it with the head of state and the issues are much more far-reaching due to the nature of the powers involved.

If you want to abolish the monarchy, you have to first decide whether to have some kind of appointed head of state or an elected head of state. If appointed, some kind of selection mechanism likely to produce non-partisan incumbents has to be developed (see below for a possible example). If elected, decisions have to be taken on how they will be elected, when they will be elected, and what powers the head of state will have. In both cases, rules on succession also have to be established, and possibly rules for removal.

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4. Change all references from "The Crown" to "The State".
You could have an "elective monarchy", sort of like the Vatican, which would not require this change. One idea I had some time ago was to create a "Crown Council" composed of all the Lieutenant Governors (or their successors, however named), constituted in the manner of a jury charged with selecting the next Governor General (or Lord Protector or Prince High Steward or whatever) and possibly Supreme Court justices. I came up with this idea as a way to kick the Prime Minister out of the Governor General selection business, but I quickly realized it could also work to replace the monarchy too without fundamentally changing the nature of the entire system since it would preserve the concept of the Crown and all the current restraints on the exercise of Crown powers. In turn, the Lieutenant Governors would be selected by a similar body composed of all the Senators of that province.

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Voila.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
They are actually smaller in number than most people in the ROC seem to think. The monarchy is very much a non-issue in Quebec, and most people are simply indifferent to it. If they think about it at all, it's that it is a bit of a joke.
Oh, I know they're few and far between- a vocal minority of assholes that make Quebec look bad. But that's exactly why I love seeing them so angry. It brings me great pleasure.

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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
I think that rings true for the ROC as well. I can't remember the last time the royals came up in casual conversation. It's a non-issue to virtually everyone.
Pretty much this. I like having the monarchy around, but I don't go around trying to promote it. The last time it came up in conversation was in a University club.
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