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  #1161  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 12:07 PM
southoftheloop southoftheloop is offline
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Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
Ultimately it is a matter of opinion and priorities but I could give a lengthy reply as to why it is very much not the superior site. Even many of those eager to see it in Jackson Park would acknowledge that the Washington Park site likely had more upside from a cost and legal basis, visibility, transit access, urban renewal, and symbolic standpoint. All of which favored the Washington Park site.
Indeed, a strong argument to be made for the WP site as a greater catalyst for development, but if you want to build a world class museum to your legacy, I would think the choice is pretty obvious to anyone but wonky urbanists...
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  #1162  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by southoftheloop View Post
Indeed, a strong argument to be made for the WP site as a greater catalyst for development, but if you want to build a world class museum to your legacy, I would think the choice is pretty obvious to anyone but wonky urbanists...
The elephant in the room is that most presidential libraries have meh or dismal attendance after a few years, and they depend on college student book clubs and academic conferences to juice the attendance numbers.

Everything depends on a good portion of MSI visitors choosing to extend their time by going around the corner, so that the Obama Presidential Library can maintain healthy attendance for decades to come.

In the best case scenario, tourists would book an extra day for a Hyde Park/Woodlawn itinerary. Together the Library and the UChicago dorms might generate enough foot traffic to spark retail and dining development along 63rd that the Library alone could not achieve.


http://apps.chicagotribune.com/graph...es-attendance/
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  #1163  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:30 PM
west-town-brad west-town-brad is offline
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
On the urban renewal and symbolic standpoint, Obama just has some common sense. Not to mention having two major attractions on one campus lifts the stature and attendance of both.

I’m sorry, but whoever peddled the idea that museums can reviltalize poverty-stricken neighborhoods like Washington Park was full of BS. They’re not big sources of employment and wealth. Museums have the most impact on neighborhoods with questionable reputations but otherwise strong amenities that are reaching a tipping point.

You have ONE opportunity to give visitors from across the world an impression of the South side different from the stereotype on TV; the city was never putting the library in an area that confirms the stereotypes. It was always going to go to a neighborhood by the lake where visitors from out of town could imagine themselves living or investing.
Its the question of spreading your investment so that all neighborhoods get a "prize" to point to but no real neighborhood change or do you concentrate your investments in certain areas and look for broader improvements to radiate out from that hub over time.

I would look to the north side for a successful example to emulate. I think Obama has mentioned something similar when he talks about Lincoln Park.
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  #1164  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:39 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
You have ONE opportunity to give visitors from across the world an impression of the South side different from the stereotype on TV; the city was never putting the library in an area that confirms the stereotypes. It was always going to go to a neighborhood by the lake where visitors from out of town could imagine themselves living or investing.
My hand instinctively tried to upvote this and then I tried to "like" it. Settle for this... bingo.
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  #1165  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:21 PM
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^ It's all of these reasons really. There really won't be a lot of spillover from the Obama Center, so putting it in a struggling area is pointless. Nobody's moving in to live near a presidential library, lol.

Washington Park should focus on its strengths IMO, which are transit access and the park itself. The city should invest in that beautiful park so it's not crumbling and isn't cut in two by an auto sewer (maybe put Morgan/Rainey in a trench like the Central Park transverse roads). Then focus on building a TOD node at Garfield.
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  #1166  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 11:51 PM
cityofneighborhoods cityofneighborhoods is offline
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By far the most exciting thing about the OBC is how it will activate and establish Jackson Park as the city's most beautiful contiguous park space - on par with something you'd find in Central Park, Prospect Park, or Golden Gate Park. The best spots like Bobolink Meadow and the pathway on Wooded Island will be enhanced by removing the stream of cars flying down Cornell drive when you turn your head to the west. The current configuration of 6 lane Cornell Drive and the mowed lawns on the west side of the lagoon are depressing and scream Midwestern suburban design that passes for "nature" for people who file lawsuits from Winnetka. All the activated spaces, native landscaping, and pedestrian paths will be what people mostly appreciate and make the south lakefront even that more appealing. I like parts of Washington Park, but even more severely, it's mostly just configured as massive grass lawns and roads to drive through
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  #1167  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2021, 12:43 AM
southoftheloop southoftheloop is offline
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Originally Posted by cityofneighborhoods View Post
By far the most exciting thing about the OBC is how it will activate and establish Jackson Park as the city's most beautiful contiguous park space - on par with something you'd find in Central Park, Prospect Park, or Golden Gate Park. The best spots like Bobolink Meadow and the pathway on Wooded Island will be enhanced by removing the stream of cars flying down Cornell drive when you turn your head to the west. The current configuration of 6 lane Cornell Drive and the mowed lawns on the west side of the lagoon are depressing and scream Midwestern suburban design that passes for "nature" for people who file lawsuits from Winnetka. All the activated spaces, native landscaping, and pedestrian paths will be what people mostly appreciate and make the south lakefront even that more appealing. I like parts of Washington Park, but even more severely, it's mostly just configured as massive grass lawns and roads to drive through

Agreed. Jackson Park is a gem, and the OPC will help it realize its full potential
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  #1168  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 3:14 PM
emathias emathias is offline
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Looking at those graphs, it seems to be that being a popular presidents associates with attendance as much as time. I've only been to two, Reagan's in California, and JFKs in Boston , and both were fairly busy.

Also, it's really too bad the CTA didn't maintain an active plan to (re)extend the Green Line to Jackson Park so it could apply for more Federal stimulus in infrastructure bills.

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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
The elephant in the room is that most presidential libraries have meh or dismal attendance after a few years, and they depend on college student book clubs and academic conferences to juice the attendance numbers.

Everything depends on a good portion of MSI visitors choosing to extend their time by going around the corner, so that the Obama Presidential Library can maintain healthy attendance for decades to come.

In the best case scenario, tourists would book an extra day for a Hyde Park/Woodlawn itinerary. Together the Library and the UChicago dorms might generate enough foot traffic to spark retail and dining development along 63rd that the Library alone could not achieve.


http://apps.chicagotribune.com/graph...es-attendance/
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  #1169  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Looking at those graphs, it seems to be that being a popular presidents associates with attendance as much as time. I've only been to two, Reagan's in California, and JFKs in Boston , and both were fairly busy.

Also, it's really too bad the CTA didn't maintain an active plan to (re)extend the Green Line to Jackson Park so it could apply for more Federal stimulus in infrastructure bills.
My hope is that discussion of the Green Line will be revived once the Obama Center is up and running. IF the two were tied together, it might fracture the fragile coalition of Obama Center supporters in the neighborhood - still a lot of folks in Woodlawn who believe the Brazier/Finney party line about the L bringing crime and blight.

Of course, if they do revive it I hope they study an alley alignment 1/2 block north or south of 63rd. The land is mostly available so there's no reason to build over the street again. By that time the North Red Line should be up and running, so there will be several spots in the city where CTA can point to the reduced noise/vibration of a modern concrete el structure.

They could also re-route 63rd temporarily using that vacant land and then build a cut-and-cover subway, but the incline from subway to elevated could be seen as an eyesore and the transfer to Metra at Dorchester would be 2 levels of transfer instead of one. On the other hand a subway alignment could be extended further than Stony Island, maybe to Jeffrey or even to S. Exchange to absorb the South Chicago branch of Metra.
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  #1170  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 9:53 PM
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Worth remembering that—what?—65 percent of Obama Center visitors will arrive by school or charter bus. Another 20 percent will be suburban or domestic car (family) tourist visitors who will arrive by auto no matter how close to an L line. Adding a second destination (and financial contributor) to the #10 express bus is probably a smarter way to serve international tourists staying downtown, or the rare single adult or couple visiting from the city.

If the Obama Foundation didn't think transit was a more determining factor in choosing a site, maybe we shouldn't worry a lot about chasing after them with an expensive L extension.
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  #1171  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 11:06 PM
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^^^ I completely disagree. Even if we decouple the Obama Library from the equation, there is a need for a direct route to Jackson Park. The Metra Electric line works, but it's still expensive and out of the way for most people. International tourists like easy methods of travel, and I can't find an easier way to get to Hyde Park than be the green line, even taking into account direct bus routes. There IS a fundamental need for the Green line to be extended back to Jackson Park. Although, I'd say just putting the old L back up is sufficient. Nothing fancy, no subway, etc. I find it hard to believe that a bus line (especially with how abysmal CTA bus numbers have been) is somehow a good replacement for a Green line extension. Maybe your logic would work a decade or two ago, but with ride-share and other impacts, making huge investments in buses (unless it's BRT) makes literally no sense. Better to invest in something that can out-compete other options, like a Green Line extension.
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  #1172  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2021, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree View Post
^^^ I completely disagree. Even if we decouple the Obama Library from the equation, there is a need for a direct route to Jackson Park. The Metra Electric line works, but it's still expensive and out of the way for most people. International tourists like easy methods of travel, and I can't find an easier way to get to Hyde Park than be the green line, even taking into account direct bus routes. There IS a fundamental need for the Green line to be extended back to Jackson Park. Although, I'd say just putting the old L back up is sufficient. Nothing fancy, no subway, etc. I find it hard to believe that a bus line (especially with how abysmal CTA bus numbers have been) is somehow a good replacement for a Green line extension. Maybe your logic would work a decade or two ago, but with ride-share and other impacts, making huge investments in buses (unless it's BRT) makes literally no sense. Better to invest in something that can out-compete other options, like a Green Line extension.
As of right now, the ME is cheaper than the L in the city due to the Cook County Pilot (https://www.cookcountyil.gov/sites/d...fare_table.pdf , 59th and 63rd street are Zone B).
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  #1173  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2021, 1:04 PM
VKChaz VKChaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree View Post
^^^ I completely disagree. Even if we decouple the Obama Library from the equation, there is a need for a direct route to Jackson Park. The Metra Electric line works, but it's still expensive and out of the way for most people. International tourists like easy methods of travel, and I can't find an easier way to get to Hyde Park than be the green line, even taking into account direct bus routes. There IS a fundamental need for the Green line to be extended back to Jackson Park. Although, I'd say just putting the old L back up is sufficient. Nothing fancy, no subway, etc. I find it hard to believe that a bus line (especially with how abysmal CTA bus numbers have been) is somehow a good replacement for a Green line extension. Maybe your logic would work a decade or two ago, but with ride-share and other impacts, making huge investments in buses (unless it's BRT) makes literally no sense. Better to invest in something that can out-compete other options, like a Green Line extension.
If the existing bus/Metra system works for the Science Museum, why wouldn't it work for the Library? I suspect the Foundation made the location decision with this in mind - that the existing system is what their visitors would use.
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  #1174  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 11:37 PM
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First, I think we can all agree that finally integrating all RTA payment methods onto the Ventra card should happen. Doing that would go a long way toward making the Mets Electric more attractive to tourists and city dwellers alike.

Second, extending the Green Line to just past Dorchester but then hooking North to 55th with stops at Dorchester, Woodlawn, 59th, and 55th seems like a good balance of expense and effectiveness. No major bridges, no tunnelling required, and no serious noise complaints if its next to the IC tracks anyway. Two miles of virgin track and four stations seems like it should be doable for half a billion dollars.

A dream scenario would then extend the western branch first to almost Western and then align with existing trail ROW to the Orange Line, with stops at "almost Western," 59th, and 51st, and running shuttles between Hyde Park and Midway at some point in the distant future. That pulls in Gage Park and improves the attractiveness of Hyde Park for weekly air commuters. Cost for that is probably closer to $750 million but might be worth it, especially politically. For another $250 million, the Green Line southwest branch could be rebuilt on the east side of the Dan Ryan with a transfer station to the Red Line at 63rd.
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  #1175  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
First, I think we can all agree that finally integrating all RTA payment methods onto the Ventra card should happen. Doing that would go a long way toward making the Mets Electric more attractive to tourists and city dwellers alike.

Second, extending the Green Line to just past Dorchester but then hooking North to 55th with stops at Dorchester, Woodlawn, 59th, and 55th seems like a good balance of expense and effectiveness. No major bridges, no tunnelling required, and no serious noise complaints if its next to the IC tracks anyway. Two miles of virgin track and four stations seems like it should be doable for half a billion dollars.

A dream scenario would then extend the western branch first to almost Western and then align with existing trail ROW to the Orange Line, with stops at "almost Western," 59th, and 51st, and running shuttles between Hyde Park and Midway at some point in the distant future. That pulls in Gage Park and improves the attractiveness of Hyde Park for weekly air commuters. Cost for that is probably closer to $750 million but might be worth it, especially politically. For another $250 million, the Green Line southwest branch could be rebuilt on the east side of the Dan Ryan with a transfer station to the Red Line at 63rd.
I wondered about the possibility of having a "T" splitting the Green Line branches, which would also make the 63rd Street portion a continuous line between Cottage Grove (or Dorchester) to Ashland (or Western). The biggest problem I see is the Englewood Flyover, which would require flying over the Flyover or tunneling under the Ryan.

Also, because of the Flyover, it would be quite difficult to locate a Metra station there, if, in the far future, a need to locate one in the area ever arose.

One other thing - if Amtrak were to finally re-locate some of their routes onto the Rock Island, having the option of a south side station at some point down the road might make some sense, and the Flyover poses the same problem. Plus, if the idea being floated by Amtrak to run some of the southern routes onto the Rock were implemented, the tracks in question merge onto the Rock at 60th Street. 63rd is too far south.

Because of that, I had an idea kicking around my head about the possibility of using 59th Street as a transport center. Please forgive the terrible graphic. I cobbled it together in 10 minutes after reading your post-

59th is the only place on the south side where the Red and Green Lines actually cross, plus the close proximity of the Metra-Rock Island tracks puts multiple lines and multiple modes of transportation in a relatively compact area. A few future possibilities-

-CTA Red Line
-CTA Green Line
-Metra-Rock Island
-Metra-Southwest Service
-Amtrak-Lincoln Service/Texas Eagle/Illini/Saluki/City of New Orleans/others?
-CTA and intercity buses.

Just a thought.

I've also thought extending the Englewood Branch to Western would be a great idea, especially if the CTA were ever to run a rapid transit service along Western, most likely BRT.

But, when playing CTA Fantasy League, and money is no object, I envision a subway line under Western, from Blue Island-Vermont Metra station in the south to Howard Street CTA station in the north. Dreaming is cheap. Subways are not.

Last edited by Mister Uptempo; Jun 16, 2021 at 2:59 AM.
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  #1176  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2021, 11:51 PM
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3 new construction building permits were issued yesterday for this.
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  #1177  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2021, 12:09 PM
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3 new construction building permits were issued yesterday for this.
Are those the 3 sites listed as "Presidental Center" right on the W edge of the park at 60th and Stony Island ?
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  #1178  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2021, 2:57 PM
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3 new construction building permits were issued yesterday for this.
So many unnecessary, unwarranted and wasteful delays, using 'conservation' of the lakefront as a cover by racist troll with money and connections to suppress a potentially transformational development in an area of the City that desperately needs it.
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  #1179  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2021, 5:39 PM
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It was thrown out so we should see things start to move along now. I don't think this had anything to do with racism. Same idiotic thinking that drove save a parking lot to loose a good museum on the campus.
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  #1180  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2021, 6:45 PM
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It was thrown out so we should see things start to move along now. I don't think this had anything to do with racism. Same idiotic thinking that drove save a parking lot to loose a good museum on the campus.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...Q&ocid=DELLDHP
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