Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Our municipalities here are lightning quick to develop over or repurpose abandoned spurs, shortlines or branch lines here. Vancouver has essentially severed it's Southern False Creek rail line. The Arbutus Corridor will never see rails. Any hopes for a Bridgeport to Steveston LRT are gone.

The only option we have here is massive tunnel projects.

No commuter trains, but tram lines are still possible in Vancouver. In Toronto, trams go onto roadways for large stretches. The False Creek rail line only sees a tiny bit on road surfaces, because most of it is still within dedicated rights-of-way.

Hence with enough funding, there is no problem bringing back tram rail from Yaletown - Science World - Olympic Village - Granville Island - Arbutus corridor (including Kerrisdale) - Marpole - River District.

That's a long stretch!

See the most modern trams around the world:

• Video Link

[Migrant_Coconut]

The downtown streetcar plan costs roughly a billion, just to operate as a glorified trolley bus (15km/h every 8 minutes) - small wonder why even City Hall's given up on it.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

- snip -

TransLink serves the entire Metro Vancouver region. As long as the Fraser Valley considers itself a separate region and doesn't pay into TransLink, TransLink has no reason to prioritize it above their actual jurisdiction (especially with funding so scarce and ridership nonexistent).

Lack of mobility in North Van is why TransLink's planning the Purple line (Metrotown to Lonsdale) right after the UBC line.

Less than 12 thousand Valley commuters in Surrey/Langley combined, to be precise; of those, less than a third would ride the train, and would actually slightly prefer more express buses. But hey, the Valley deserves to blow all of the next fifteen years' worth of BC's transit funding on a useless POS, because it's "special."

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The downtown streetcar plan costs roughly a billion, just to operate as a glorified trolley bus (15km/h every 8 minutes) - small wonder why even City Hall's given up on it.



TransLink serves the entire Metro Vancouver region. As long as the Fraser Valley considers itself a separate region and doesn't pay into TransLink, TransLink has no reason to prioritize it above their actual jurisdiction (especially with funding so scarce and ridership nonexistent).

Lack of mobility in North Van is why TransLink's planning the Purple line (Metrotown to Lonsdale) right after the UBC line.

Less than 12 thousand Valley commuters in Surrey/Langley combined, to be precise; of those, less than a third would ride the train, and would actually slightly prefer more express buses. But hey, the Valley deserves to blow all of the next fifteen years' worth of BC's transit funding on a useless POS, because it's "special."

I'm with you. As a former valley resident... the problem is that the area is more or less decentralized. Are Chilliwack residents going to downtown Abbotsford? No... they're going to places all over Abbotsford... which doesn't really have a proper "center" of town.

Also... with the GO expansion, we're talking about connecting cities on both sides... not just towns. Connecting Hamilton (729k), Kitchener (522k), Oshawa (336k), and to a lesser extent Milton (135k) to Toronto.

Brampton(650k), Markham (~350k), and Aurora (62k) are considered part of the Toronto pop. centre. In all... you're talking about population centres that combined rival the size of Metro Vancouver itself.

Vancouver has the problem of Vancouver Island and the lack of a bridge to the island, where a sizeable chunk of potential commuters could live... Abbotsford (132k) is smaller than Milton. Chilliwack (~80k) is the size of Aurora maybe... which is in the GTA.

If we had Victoria (363k), Nanaimo (106k), and Kelowna (181k) within commuting distance... it would make more sense.


Now... I'm not saying it's PURELY a product of population... Vancouver has different constraints which actually play to its favor (all its municipalities being in a more or less straight line along one major corridor, for one!) but as much as I LOVE the idea of suburban rail... and as much as I think we SHOULD be reserving ROW for rail (likely down the #1) today... I think that we need to start with reliable consistent express buses first... and start encouraging Abbotsford to actually build a proper downtown destination. Chilliwack's downtown is better built and more centralized than Abbotsford's if I'm honest... the closest thing Abby has to downtown is SevenOaks shopping centre.

Chilliwack has a better density profile and is more walkable than Abbotssprawl.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

... I think that we need to start with reliable consistent express buses first... and start encouraging Abbotsford to actually build a proper downtown destination. Chilliwack's downtown is better built and more centralized than Abbotsford's if I'm honest... the closest thing Abby has to downtown is SevenOaks shopping centre.

Chilliwack has a better density profile and is more walkable than Abbotssprawl.

My thoughts exactly: add bus lanes to Highway 1 (already happening) upgrade the FVX, add more routes to other parts of the Valley and form a network, and all for a fraction of the money. Abbotsford could also easily set up a BRT system along "key" corridors of the city like Old Yale/South Fraser, Marshall, Clearbrook, or Old Clayburn and build up ridership to encourage TOD around town centres. Eventually, both networks will justify rail, just like Vancouver's did; Victoria's already trying that strategy right now.

Instead, Abby wants to push a pie-in-the-sky interurban... in the hope of making it easier to drive on the highway? They're not going to get better as long as they have it bass-ackwards.

[ssiguy]

I think some of you guys are misinterpreting what I am saying here.

Yes, express buses can be great {if they have HOV lanes to take advantage of} and that may indeed be sufficient for now. The issue is that you don't plan transit for today's needs or even what will be needed in 20 or 30 years but rather 50 to 100 years.

Imagine if Toronto or Montreal had built their subways/Metros to carry them over for just 20 years, they would be packed beyond belief to the point of almost being dangerous and not a viable transit option. The SkyTrain has small stations by Metro standards but it was built with the future in mind with the ability to expand the stations. On the other hand you have the McCanada Line which can only be expanded to 50 meters with some dangerously thin platforms that will never be able to meet the demands of Vancouver in 30 years little alone 100.

If the demand isn't there now then fine, build other projects that are already desperately needed but plan long-term by buying up corridors for both buses and trains and restricting all development within a 30 meter radius of those corridors to allow for double/quad tracking in the future. Ditto for highways.

Planning is exactly that but Vancouver has a bad habit of just planning their transportation needs for the next 20 years and 20 years can fly by pretty damn quickly.

[Migrant_Coconut]

You're the one misunderstanding here - the interurban won't be needed even in 200 years, because virtually nobody wants to ride the stupid thing. Study after study repeatedly shows that it'll cost as much as a SkyTrain and attract less passengers than the FVX, so we should spend the money on transit projects (possibly some to the Valley) which aren't colossal ripoffs.

There's one decent train corridor from Surrey to Abbotsford, and that's straight down the middle of the TCH - anything else is a waste of effort.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The downtown streetcar plan costs roughly a billion, just to operate as a glorified trolley bus (15km/h every 8 minutes) - small wonder why even City Hall's given up on it.
"

A tram can go much faster, upwards of 70km/hr, in dedicated R.O.W.s: between OV to Granville Island, Arbutus Corridor (except town centres like Kerrisdale where it can slow to 15km/h), as well as Marine Gateway to River District. Stop spreading disinformation.

A billion to connect future Vancouver growing town centres and tourist districts (River District, Marine Gateway, Marpole Centre, Kerrisdale, Kitsilano, Granville Island, Olympic Village, Yaletown) with a single mass transit line where an R.O.W. is already in place is nothing compared to half a billion or more to take down perfectly good viaducts and put in another short highway with multiple street intersections, or for the province to spend it to replace the BC Royal Museum in Victoria. If they can't afford the billion in one go, break it down to a few phases.

Priorities.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

You're the one misunderstanding here - the interurban won't be needed even in 200 years, because virtually nobody wants to ride the stupid thing. Study after study repeatedly shows that it'll cost as much as a SkyTrain and attract less passengers than the FVX, so we should spend the money on transit projects (possibly some to the Valley) which aren't colossal ripoffs.

There's one decent train corridor from Surrey to Abbotsford, and that's straight down the middle of the TCH - anything else is a waste of effort.

Speak for yourself, because a lot of people would want to ride a modern interurban. In fact, more services and housing would be relocated around these corridors once they are in place. We would certainly like to see those purported studies that show that commuter trains /interurban cost the same as the skytrain.

It would be utterly stupid to build the commuter train along the middle of the Trans Canada Hwy because you achieve nothing but create more park-and-rides in the burbs: something we are trying to avoid because commuter trains should go right into (or very near) town centres. Toronto planners are now frowning on some of the park-and-rides built far away from population centres, but at least many of the GO train stations still or will serve town centres in southern Ontario.

Guelph's GO train station is a great example of a good intercity train station:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5447...6656?entry=ttu
This is what you see when you step out of the station:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5444...8192?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5442...8192?entry=ttu

Hamilton's is another great example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2531...8192?entry=ttu
See how they have a bus terminal beside the station:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2523...8192?entry=ttu

Burlington's is a terrible example, and something you will get if Westcoast Express has another line down the middle of the Trans-Canada Hwy:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3132...8192?entry=ttu
However, being close to Hamilton, Burlington station is meant to cater for the rush-hour commuting crowds who own cars living in the sprawl: another typical North American big mistake in the first place.

London, Ontario also has a good VIA station smack in town, and recently upgraded:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9817...8192?entry=ttu
New developments near the London station:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9813...8192?entry=ttu
All within walking distance to this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9824...8192?entry=ttu


Surprised to see why these towns look so beautiful, urban and compact? Well, that's because back in the 1800s, people had the foresight to link the early settlements with trains. After seeing the successes elsewhere around the world, many authorities here in Canada are now just trying to bring the concept back after the decades of neglect not just on commuter/interurban rail travel, but also the disintegration and decay of formerly beautiful town centres when governments prioritized automobile travel and urban sprawl to appease the Oil and automobile industries.

If I were a visitor to Toronto intending to visit, say the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum in Hamilton, I can take the TTC subway to Union Station, hop on the WB Lakeshore GO line to Hamilton Station, then hop on an airport bus using the same Presto Card to the museum.

In Vancouver, as a visitor and if I would like to visit the zoo in Aldergrove.....forget it: not worth going.
What about the Railway Museum of BC in Squamish? Nope, forget it: there aren't even public buses going there from Vancouver.
Surely the Canadian Museum of Flight in Langley is more accessible? Nope, not at all: let's just stick to downtown Vancouver. Hey, there is an art gallery!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

- snip -

No, a billion just to get from Waterfront to Arbutus/Broadway. Kerrisdale, Marpole, Yaletown and Stanley Park would cost another billion or three, and Boundary is a pipe dream. Edit: And yes, the same study pegs it at 15 km/h on average, which makes the thing even slower than a freaking trolley bus at 20-23 km/h average.
Meanwhile, a plan to replace two obsolete stubs of not-highways with a proper downtown grid only costs 2/5ths of a billion (the repair option has inevitably gotten more expensive too), and the scrapped BC Museum plan only cost 3/4ths of a billion. Both would get infinitely more usage than the streetcar, and so would be much better value for money.

I keep re-linking the thing, and it would be nice if the Rail for the Valley bots would actually read it. The BC government ran the numbers and only came up with 3,900 riders/day - just as many as the bus to Steveston. Show me all the quaint little stations you want, BC is not Ontario, and so they're all going to be near-empty all day.
Speaking of GO though, its recent expansion cost $16.2 billion, or roughly $70 million/km. The interurban from Langley to Chilliwack is roughly 75km long, so that's $5.25 billion... so actually, more like a SkyTrain and a half.

The TCH goes straight through the middle of Surrey, Walnut Grove, Abbotsford and Chilliwack (four of the places we're trying to connect), and is linked by a future high-density BRT corridor to Langley proper. It's the literal definition of "be on the way." OTOH the interurban is in the middle of farmland, makes detours all over the place, adds an hour or two to everybody's trip and thereby fails to serve rush-hour drivers OR urbanism.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

In Vancouver, as a visitor and if I would like to visit the zoo in Aldergrove.....forget it: not worth going.
What about the Railway Museum of BC in Squamish? Nope, forget it: there aren't even public buses going there.
Surely the Canadian Museum of Flight in Langley is more accessible? Nope, not at all: let's just stick to downtown Vancouver. Hey, there is an art gallery!

Aldergrove doesn't have a zoo - it has an oversized ranch which neglects its animals and doesn't want to educate its visitors. Even a Shinkansen couldn't save that dump.

YNJ's a short bus ride away from the future Expo terminus. Squamish would be an extra five billion on top of the interurban's billions - far too much money for an antique train collection which nobody visits either. The BC Museum is more valuable than all three put together, so that's where the province wants the money to go.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Aldergrove doesn't have a zoo - it has an oversized ranch which neglects its animals and doesn't want to educate its visitors. Even a Shinkansen couldn't save that dump.

YNJ's a short bus ride away from the future Expo terminus. Squamish would be an extra five billion on top of the interurban's billions - far too much money for an antique train collection which nobody visits either. The BC Museum is more valuable than all three put together, so that's where the province wants the money to go.

Maybe there's a reason why it remains an "oversized ranch": not enough visitors to improve the facilities perhaps?
However, I need to correct you that it is still a zoo.
https://gvzoo.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw2a6...0aAuSBEALw_wcB

See how easy it is to get to the Calgary Zoo using the the C-train tram system. No wonder it is one of the best research zoos around the world. I'm not suggesting that we should have a train up to Squamish, but it really shows how terrible we are at public transportation, particularly one that can enhance our tourism sector. A commuter train system through the Fraser valley towns and cities would be the first step on how to improve accessibility here.

As for the Royal BC Museum, haven't you heard that there was a huge public outcry on the cost to be spent and the inept NDP government had to back off, and even brought back the heritage town display they intended to destroy?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

- snip -

They've actually had their AZA accreditation revoked a few times, so their status as a "zoo" changes from time to time (also indicating their neglect is likely to continue even with more money). Surabaya Zoo calls itself a zoo, but it sure doesn't deserve to.
But hey, if the GVZ wants more visitors, they could always pack up and move to QE Park, Van Dusen or the PNE. That's how far away the Calgary Zoo is from downtown Calgary, so of course it's easy to get to it.

The time to build a giant passenger rail network with no worries about costs was fifty years ago. Since then, the TCH was built, BC Rail was privatized by the Libs, and the recent SkyTrain extensions cost $3-4 billion each and took forever to get through all the opposition and receive funding, so it would be wise to spend BC's limited transit budget on high demand projects rather than merely symbolic ones.

And yet the same NDP has given $270 million to Royal BC's annex, and there's nothing stopping them from announcing a cheaper one after next election (watered down, and minus the cost of the annex). Still cheaper and better than an interurban to nowhere.

Originally Posted by Vin

... brought back the heritage town display they intended to destroy?

Trying and failing to start a culture war in the Heavy Rail thread? Classy.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But hey, if the GVZ wants more visitors, they could always pack up and move to QE Park, Van Dusen or the PNE. That's how far away the Calgary Zoo is from downtown Calgary, so of course it's easy to get to it.

I checked the map, and if you put the Greater Vancouver Zoo at roughly the same distance from City Hall as the Calgary Zoo is from Calgary's City Hall, the Greater Vancouver Zoo would be somewhere in Mount Pleasant.

[Vin]

Nice podcast to listen to while at work:


What we can learn about the future of rail from its past
https://www.cbc.ca/r...anada-1.6681160


From CBC

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Trying and failing to start a culture war in the Heavy Rail thread? Classy.

Nope. Simply showing you how a billion dollars can be mis-spent by decision makers who make the dumbest of mistakes rather than on investments that can benefit a lot more people way into the future.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Nope. Simply showing you how a billion dollars can be mis-spent by decision makers who make the dumbest of mistakes rather than on investments that can benefit a lot more people way into the future.

Nope. Again, the interurban's over five billion dollars, and 3,900 daily riders is not "a lot of people" (even a Little League game is busier); building that would be a dumb mistake.

Meanwhile, we've got SkyTrains ready to carry 200k on day one for nearly half that price.

[ssiguy]

You can't compare this little line to Toronto's streetcar network.

The TTC has the largest streetcar/tram network in North AND South America. It's infrastructure is already in place including the new trains, catenary, maintenance/operations/garage as well as the trained staff. Toronto, when expanding it's streetcar routes doesn't have to start from scratch like this new Vancouver line would.

This concept is nothing more than what many US cities have created in the last 20 years........."look Mom, we have streetcars too". What an obscene waste of money with pathetic ridership that would hardly qualify as a decent bus route. This would not be a transit project to help Vancouverites but a line built for tourists and land speculators. In the scheme of Metro's transit & transportation priorities, this thing shouldn't rank in the top 50.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Nope. Again, the interurban's over five billion dollars, and 3,900 daily riders is not "a lot of people" (even a Little League game is busier); building that would be a dumb mistake.

Meanwhile, we've got SkyTrains ready to carry 200k on day one for nearly half that price.

3,900 would be the number of riders at the moment without a good transportation system. In fact, I saw the number currently at 8,000 from your review report.

Show us how skytrains construction would half the price. Any source?

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You can't compare this little line to Toronto's streetcar network.

The TTC has the largest streetcar/tram network in North AND South America. It's infrastructure is already in place including the new trains, catenary, maintenance/operations/garage as well as the trained staff. Toronto, when expanding it's streetcar routes doesn't have to start from scratch like this new Vancouver line would.

This concept is nothing more than what many US cities have created in the last 20 years........."look Mom, we have streetcars too". What an obscene waste of money with pathetic ridership that would hardly qualify as a decent bus route. This would not be a transit project to help Vancouverites but a line built for tourists and land speculators. In the scheme of Metro's transit & transportation priorities, this thing shouldn't rank in the top 50.

Of course we can't compare with Toronto because we were dumb enough to tear out a lot of good streetcar network in the past to favour passenger vehicles. We would be dumber to also destroy the remaining ones.

It would be an "obscene waste of money" until you or your loved ones actually start taking and benefitting from it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

3,900 would be the number of riders at the moment without a good transportation system. In fact, I saw the number currently at 8,000 from your review report.

Show us how skytrains construction would half the price. Any source?

No, it means that if the Province builds the thing, 4,100 would prefer the bus. So not everybody wants to waste up to an hour every day riding the SkyTrain in from Langley, and even fewer want to detour to Huntingdon.

Way to miss the point: that the SkyTrain network is much more important than hypothetical Valley rail, and will therefore justifiably hog the funding for the next few decades.
Okay though, let’s do the math. Montreal’s REM is $7.95 billion over 67 km, or $119 million/km; Whalley to Abbotsford is ~41 km, or $4.9 billion. Same price, and much more useful to Valley commuters by going direct instead of detouring... but an even cheaper, more effective option would be the express bus option on page 20, which is infinitely cheaper and slightly more popular than any of the train options next to it.

[twoNeurons]

Either way, you need to make an express bus work first. Build ridership. A non-stop bus from some "central" Abbotsford location to Mission for WCE.

I put central in quotes because I don't know Rabbit'sTurd has a centre.

[casper]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Either way, you need to make an express bus work first. Build ridership. A non-stop bus from some "central" Abbotsford location to Mission for WCE.

I put central in quotes because I don't know Rabbit'sTurd has a centre.

Now that the province has these new rules that automatically up zone any area near a public transit train station, that is going to create some interesting dynamics for a place the Fraser valley. Not certain if that makes it easier or more difficult to get community buy in.