Who will replace Mulcair? (NDP leadership) - Page 15

Acajack · #**281** Posted **Sep 16, 2017, 8:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Why can't we ban certain religions or religious practices? Human ritual sacrifice (and not the voluntary kind) was a practice of a number of religions and sects which were eventually outlawed, and thank heavens for that!

We are a long way from banning religions. In fact I see things going in the opposite direction. I even predict Christianity will make a modest come-back in western secularized countries. Though not in the same way as the Jesus Freak phenom in the US.

But for the time being our approach to religions with problematic practices is similar to what the US did with the Mormons: you can have your religion except (maybe) for A B and C.

We will see how that goes.

mistercorporate · #**282** Posted **Sep 17, 2017, 12:20 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

We are a long way from banning religions. In fact I see things going in the opposite direction. I even predict Christianity will make a modest come-back in western secularized countries. Though not in the same way as the Jesus Freak phenom in the US.

But for the time being our approach to religions with problematic practices is similar to what the US did with the Mormons: you can have your religion except (maybe) for A B and C.

We will see how that goes.

Well that's interesting, what flavour of Christianity are you referring to? Orthodox? Catholic? It doesn't get much more uptight than mainline Catholicism, religious people are moving to more personalized and open minded forms of spirituality, study and worship. Mainstream religion nowadays isn't much more than feel-good socializing for the most part.

Acajack · #**283** Posted **Sep 18, 2017, 1:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Well that's interesting, what flavour of Christianity are you referring to? Orthodox? Catholic? It doesn't get much more uptight than mainline Catholicism, religious people are moving to more personalized and open minded forms of spirituality, study and worship. Mainstream religion nowadays isn't much more than feel-good socializing for the most part.

I don't see the rebound of Christianity in the non-US western world so much as a rise in new religions (like evangelicals) but more as a re-energizing of the more traditional religions. But I don't think it will be like it was in the old days where everyone in a village went to church, often the same church.

As I have mentioned before on here my kids are my barometer or my canary in the coal mine. They definitely have a heightened sense of religious consciousness compared to what my wife and I had growing up. This is due to the presence of schoolmates and also friends who are of many different religions and also levels of devoutness.

When all your friends say "I'm religion X, I'm religion X too, I'm religion Y, I'm religion Z", there is at least some amount peer pressure to identify with a religion. Sure some of the stronger-willed kids will say "I am atheist, God is make-believe". Or something like that. Maybe a bit more respectfully, depending on the kid.

My kids haven't been taught to be atheist and they haven't been taught to be very religious either. But they have Catholicism all around them in an accessory way due to extended family, grand-parents, etc.

I am pretty sure they answer "Roman Catholic" if their friends ask them what their religion is.

Don't underestimate the long-term effects of this phenomenon.

kwoldtimer · #**284** Posted **Sep 18, 2017, 2:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't see the rebound of Christianity in the non-US western world so much as a rise in new religions (like evangelicals) but more as a re-energizing of the more traditional religions. But I don't think it will be like it was in the old days where everyone in a village went to church, often the same church.

As I have mentioned before on here my kids are my barometer or my canary in the coal mine. They definitely have a heightened sense of religious consciousness compared to what my wife and I had growing up. This is due to the presence of schoolmates and also friends who are of many different religions and also levels of devoutness.

When all your friends say "I'm religion X, I'm religion X too, I'm religion Y, I'm religion Z", there is at least some amount peer pressure to identify with a religion. Sure some of the stronger-willed kids will say "I am atheist, God is make-believe". Or something like that. Maybe a bit more respectfully, depending on the kid.

My kids haven't been taught to be atheist and they haven't been taught to be very religious either. But they have Catholicism all around them in an accessory way due to extended family, grand-parents, etc.

I am pretty sure they answer "Roman Catholic" if their friends ask them what their religion is.

Don't underestimate the long-term effects of this phenomenon.

I doubt we'll see any future growth in the mainstream Protestant denominations, but immigration is propping up the Church of Rome and some evangelical sects are growing like gangbusters, as I understand it. If one considers that to be "Christianity"....

I could also see an uptick among traditional RC communities, if young people were to start looking toward the Church for some sort of "authenticity" in their lives (not sure I'm expressing that well).

Acajack · #**285** Posted **Sep 18, 2017, 2:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I doubt we'll see any future growth in the mainstream Protestant denominations, but immigration is propping up the Church of Rome and some evangelical sects are growing like gangbusters, as I understand it. If one considers that to be "Christianity"....

I could also see an uptick among traditional RC communities, if young people were to start looking toward the Church for some sort of "authenticity" in their lives (not sure I'm expressing that well).

You'd know better than me for the traditional Anglo-Protestant side, but if I can see the potential for an uptick among Catholic French Canadians, nothing is impossible. (Though admittedly French Canadian Catholicism doesn't have as much competition from American or American-style megachurches as the anglo side does.)

Loco101 · #**286** Posted **Sep 19, 2017, 8:53 PM**

I'd say that almost any growth in Prostestant churches, especially evangelical ones, is from immigration. The same could be said for many Catholic churches.

I've been to a number of evangelical churches and even in Timmins are made up of quite a few immigrants who are less accepting of having a secular society and government. They tend to be bothered by things such as same-sex marriage, abortion and even things such as LGBT rights.

Getting back to the topic of this thread:

My MP, Charlie Angus is openly Catholic and is not afraid to speak out against the Catholic church. And the vast majority of people here agree with him. Our region is majority Catholic but very few go to church. Another interesting thing about Angus is that he is proud and never afraid to mention his Scottish heritage.

Wolf13 · #**287** Posted **Sep 19, 2017, 10:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanSpice

I don't know how you can call JT and Singh "tolerant-of-intolerance" or "Sharia-friendly" politicians. That's about as far from the truth as possible.

I don't know about Singh, but Trudeau has a small history of cozying up with Islamic leaders or personalities, some (not all) that leaned towards the "less nice" side.

He is likely doing little else to court people from other religions.

Why?

Because this is a huge and growing voter base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

You have posted from time to time along similar lines - you imply some sort of problem or threat, but you never say what it is. What is it? Has there been a rash of kirpan stabbings in Montreal since 2001?

????

Have you read the news? There have been issues throughout Europe the last couple of years, in particular liberal countries with high muslim populations, such as France, England, Sweden, and Germany, etc... especially with the refugee crisis. None of this means it's Islam's fault (and it's hard to say it's 100% not Islam's fault also), but when you put immovable cultural opposites in a pressure cooker, things can happen.

I absolutely must stress that I don't blame muslims as a whole and I have muslim friends/colleagues, but other examples before us have said "not going to happen" and things have happened. With a refugee crisis and a more compassionate society, it's also (simply stating the obvious, not trying to alarm) easier than ever to get in.

To have one's guard down and neuter any discussion (unless it gets you votes) would be a huge disservice to voting Canadian citizens if something ever did happen.

MonkeyRonin · #**288** Posted **Sep 20, 2017, 4:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I have mentioned before on here my kids are my barometer or my canary in the coal mine. They definitely have a heightened sense of religious consciousness compared to what my wife and I had growing up. This is due to the presence of schoolmates and also friends who are of many different religions and also levels of devoutness.

When all your friends say "I'm religion X, I'm religion X too, I'm religion Y, I'm religion Z", there is at least some amount peer pressure to identify with a religion. Sure some of the stronger-willed kids will say "I am atheist, God is make-believe". Or something like that. Maybe a bit more respectfully, depending on the kid.

There might be more non-Christians in Canada than ever before, but then there are also more non-religious as well. More than anything there's just more religious diversity. But for yours or my generation, growing up most people would still say "I'm Catholic", with maybe a few "I'm Anglican" or "I'm Jewish" when asked the same question - yet most of us still turned out more-or-less atheist/agnostic, or at least as non-churchgoing Christians. Nowadays you might get a few more "I'm Muslim" or "I'm Hindu" mixed in there, with some "I'm not religious" as well. But overall, not too different from any other time in the recent past - so what about that scenario makes it so different as to produce the opposite outcome of what the general trend has been for the last 50+ years?

Quote:

I am pretty sure they answer "Roman Catholic" if their friends ask them what their religion is.

Don't underestimate the long-term effects of this phenomenon.

Hasn't that always been the case in post-1960s Quebec though? The secular, cultural Catholicism is arguably a defining characteristic of the province.

Acajack · #**289** Posted **Sep 20, 2017, 6:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

There might be more non-Christians in Canada than ever before, but then there are also more non-religious as well. More than anything there's just more religious diversity. But for yours or my generation, growing up most people would still say "I'm Catholic", with maybe a few "I'm Anglican" or "I'm Jewish" when asked the same question - yet most of us still turned out more-or-less atheist/agnostic, or at least as non-churchgoing Christians. Nowadays you might get a few more "I'm Muslim" or "I'm Hindu" mixed in there, with some "I'm not religious" as well. But overall, not too different from any other time in the recent past - so what about that scenario makes it so different as to produce the opposite outcome of what the general trend has been for the last 50+ years?

Hasn't that always been the case in post-1960s Quebec though? The secular, cultural Catholicism is arguably a defining characteristic of the province.

Please don't take this badly but it's interesting how there is always such a "reassurance" knee-jerk reaction to posts that suggest that might be downsides to certain "pet phenomena" such as immigration, diversity and, since this is SSP, population growth too...

Everything's always gonna be all right. Nothing's gonna change. Right Bobby?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

ssiguy · #**290** Posted **Sep 20, 2017, 6:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loco101

I'd say that almost any growth in Prostestant churches, especially evangelical ones, is from immigration. The same could be said for many Catholic churches.

I've been to a number of evangelical churches and even in Timmins are made up of quite a few immigrants who are less accepting of having a secular society and government. They tend to be bothered by things such as same-sex marriage, abortion and even things such as LGBT rights.

Getting back to the topic of this thread:

My MP, Charlie Angus is openly Catholic and is not afraid to speak out against the Catholic church. And the vast majority of people here agree with him. Our region is majority Catholic but very few go to church. Another interesting thing about Angus is that he is proud and never afraid to mention his Scottish heritage.

I totally agree.
In Vancouver Koreans and Chinese are far more conservative and religious than the population at large and there are many Chinese and Korean "only" Protestant churches. They tend to be much more conservative on certain issues. Less so abortion but much more so in LGBT rights although certainly not to the level of out right hostility.

Acajack · #**291** Posted **Sep 20, 2017, 6:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I totally agree.
In Vancouver Koreans and Chinese are far more conservative and religious than the population at large and there are many Chinese and Korean "only" Protestant churches. They tend to be much more conservative on certain issues. Less so abortion but much more so in LGBT rights although certainly not to the level of out right hostility.

It won't be a problem because all of their kids will without exception be progressive atheists.

GlassCity · #**292** Posted **Sep 20, 2017, 8:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

It won't be a problem because all of their kids will without exception be progressive atheists.

lio45 · #**293** Posted **Sep 21, 2017, 5:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Hasn't that always been the case in post-1960s Quebec though?

Not really, no. When I was a kid (late 1980s, early 1990s) a good chunk of our class would self-identify as "not religious".

It's easy to venture a guess that if all the other kids have religions nowadays (in a much more ethnically mixed class, so, way more religious), there will be some peer pressure for the one kid who'd normally say "not religious" to just say "Catholic" instead, just to be like the others rather than sticking out.

MonkeyRonin · #**294** Posted **Sep 21, 2017, 6:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45

Not really, no. When I was a kid (late 1980s, early 1990s) a good chunk of our class would self-identify as "not religious".

The 90.5% who self-identify as Christian on the census (compared to the <5% who are actual church-goers) would beg to differ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Please don't take this badly but it's interesting how there is always such a "reassurance" knee-jerk reaction to posts that suggest that might be downsides to certain "pet phenomena" such as immigration, diversity and, since this is SSP, population growth too...

Everything's always gonna be all right. Nothing's gonna change. Right Bobby?

The current trends towards religious decline aren't impervious to change, but there's less evidence to suggest that there will be a major shift in the near future than there is to suggest it'll continue to be more of the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

It won't be a problem because all of their kids will without exception be progressive atheists.

More likely that more of their kids will become progressive atheists than it is that the children of progressive atheists will become religious conservatives.

lio45 · #**295** Posted **Sep 21, 2017, 8:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

The 90.5% who self-identify as Christian on the census (compared to the <5% who are actual church-goers) would beg to differ.

I'm sure most of the kids I'm talking about were officially counted as Catholics in the census. There's a sense of identity that can easily push one to tick that box even while being, for all intents and purposes, atheist.

The picture you get from the real life (church attendance numbers, etc.) is very different from the picture you get from the census, and I'll take the former any day as reality over the latter.

Acajack · #**296** Posted **Sep 21, 2017, 8:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm sure most of the kids I'm talking about were officially counted as Catholics in the census. There's a sense of identity that can easily push one to tick that box even while being, for all intents and purposes, atheist.

The picture you get from the real life (church attendance numbers, etc.) is very different from the picture you get from the census, and I'll take the former any day as reality over the latter.

I think a good analogy is how long it takes for colours to fade after numerous washings.

The Catholic church was so ingrained here that a significant level of cultural Catholicism (which exists in Latin America and Romance Europe as well BTW) has persisted for fairly long.

I think that as the legacy of this fades though the percentage of people identifying as Catholics for cultural reasons will continue to drop, and this is likely to accelerate.