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  #6541  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2014, 6:13 PM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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Originally Posted by DenverRider2 View Post
Not even a mention of streetcar? Way to be ambitious.
Meh, something is better than nothing. A frequent branded bus line to CC in a year is better than nothing for 10 years, which is how long it would take to put in a streetcar line if one was planned today.

Ken and Cirrus have convinced me that incremental is the way to go if you want to see anything done in your lifetimes. That goes for Front Range rail. I'd rather see some sort of standard commuter rail to Ft. Collins rather than wait 50 years for HSR. Meanwhile, you'll get customers that have much more exposure to a commuter rail system and support improvements to that system rather than drivers that would support a pie in the sky HSR.
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  #6542  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2014, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
Meh, something is better than nothing. A frequent branded bus line to CC in a year is better than nothing for 10 years, which is how long it would take to put in a streetcar line if one was planned today.

Ken and Cirrus have convinced me that incremental is the way to go if you want to see anything done in your lifetimes. That goes for Front Range rail. I'd rather see some sort of standard commuter rail to Ft. Collins rather than wait 50 years for HSR. Meanwhile, you'll get customers that have much more exposure to a commuter rail system and support improvements to that system rather than drivers that would support a pie in the sky HSR.
I believe, sir, that how we do things changes. 50 years ago, transportation improvement (freeways) were done quickly. Things changed: writing environmental reports became a way of life, the federal government for various reasons became less interested in alternate transportation options, the country became poorer, etc. How we do things will change again: the rising cost of energy and resources and the steady decline of easy to extract oil is going to affect all forms of transportation in unpredictable ways. What the voter wants on a federal, state, county, and, city level will evolve in response.

The key, IMO, to transportation issues is right-of-way. What agencies can do now is to try to secure right-of-way, bearing in mind that in 2020 or 2025 the railroads might leap at the chance to get less government money than UP and BNSF request today.

So far we have escaped real price shocks in energy and resource inflation. For example new cars are more expensive, yet new cars last longer and get better mileage as the auto industry absorbs true inflation through technological improvement. But this is finite and will end, as real inflation exceeds the ability for auto manufacturers to raise prices to a public that can afford them. This is true, too, for electric cars. The key, I am afraid is the rate of rise of true oil cost (the related cost of extracting lower quality resources with more energy, too) and how this increase relates to the transportation matrix.

Things will change when the public starts to yell about cost despite the best efforts of the media to tell us all is Ok. This has not occurred yet, as we have avoided the problem via increasing our personal and government debt. However, most of us know that sooner or later the ability to pay for increased real costs via currency stability created by printing money will end. At that point change will occur, and, things again, will be done differently.

And, very likely in your working lifetime and no where close to retirement age.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Feb 28, 2014 at 3:49 PM.
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  #6543  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2014, 9:13 PM
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Crosspost. Here are some of my shots from last night.







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  #6544  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2014, 9:21 PM
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Critique

A) Any one would be foolish to say it looks odious. Obviously, the sweeping canvas and white painted tubing look great. Aesthetics- A.

B) Far less functional that it appears. However this will only become evident as traffic in the station gets going in about 4 or 5 years. At that time people will not even notice the aesthetics, just how well the station complex works for them.

Until the synergies kick in between the commuter spokes as they are progressively go active, the place will be beautiful and mostly vacant. I have to admit this will impress the Amtrak faithful.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
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  #6545  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2014, 12:28 AM
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Does anyone know how much this cost? Not the whole project, just the canopy & platforms.

It actually looks pretty economical, relatively speaking.
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  #6546  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2014, 1:30 AM
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Not sure, but since I'm going to request all agreements pertaining to public use of the platforms, because I'm angry… I can certainly ask for the cost of the canopy while I'm at it. Of course, then they'll think I'm an opponent, rather than an annoyed enthusiast.
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  #6547  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2014, 3:24 PM
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I am going to do a "Bunt" style rant/observation on the DIA article in the Denver Post this morning, 03/02/14

I wish to h**l that people in Denver government would spend less time working behind the scenes to cover up mistakes and put the dirty laundry out for the public sooner.

All this s**t IMO is known by every bureaucrat with any rank at DIA, and RTD. I am sure that the staff of the Denver City Council knows about these over runs, and, I would not be surprised if a Denver City Council member or three hasn't had a slew of conversations about something to the effect "how can we keep this over run hidden until the DIA line goes active?"

A few quotes:

"DIA is a self-supporting department of city government, raising revenues from airline charges and passenger spending on parking and concessions. Its operations are overseen by the Denver City Council, which approves its budgets..."

"Christopher Herndon, whose district includes DIA, said he "deferred to the airport team" when asked about capital-maintenance cuts.
Council president Mary Beth Susman said she trusts airport management is properly budgeting - even in the case of runway maintenance.
"How can we project what will happen?" she said. "How do we know it won't work out fine?"

"Stan Koniz, the airport's former finance chief, warned (Kim) Day in 2009 that the project's high price tag could raise airport fees and rates and jeopardize its bond rating.
'I told her, "Kim, we can't afford this," said Koniz, who was put on leave for insubordination."


*******

All this manure is after the fact BS, and, reflects high level bureaucrats posturing themselves to cover their a**es.

Denver, today, and for the last couple of decades, has been a hick town in the sense that large scale transportation planning often seems 'aesthetics oriented'- i.e., what visual impression does the new DIA hotel and expansion make, and less 'functionally oriented'- i.e., what are the real cost-benefit analyses? (not an "up or down" on a project, but, looking at something first based on how well that something would WORK).

Kim Day is a politician, not an engineer. Damn.

***********
One last quote- and this applies to DUS also.

"Strong, the aviation economist, said observers in the industry, wonder whether the project isn't a 'bit of a stretch.'
He said, 'I heard one say, "It's either a visionary project or a lesson for the rest of us."


And a lot of contractors have made out like a bandit....
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Mar 2, 2014 at 3:38 PM.
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  #6548  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2014, 3:39 PM
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  #6549  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2014, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Kim Day is a politician, not an engineer. Damn.
She's actually an architect. Hence the 30% cost overrun being poo-pooed. Of course, many engineers would also poo-poo such cost overruns once a project was green-lighted.
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Last edited by wong21fr; Mar 2, 2014 at 8:01 PM.
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  #6550  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2014, 3:53 AM
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  #6551  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2014, 4:13 AM
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You mean the Colorado pedestrian bridge.
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  #6552  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2014, 4:47 AM
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Whichever name makes you more upset.
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  #6553  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 3:42 AM
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Bridge of least resistance.

I know all of the complications as to why this bridge will end up being built where it is but I still believe it should have been built on the Bellaire Street Alignment.

Significant ramping, grade changes and height clearances can be solved by engineering but may add cost. I think the final solution will give a 60% adequate solution for 90% of the costs.

BTW my personal stake in this stems from the six months I spent building the Habitat for Humanity town homes at the corner of Bellaire and Jewell, right at what should have been the foot of the bridge.

One wonders how many millions were wasted by not building this as part of the TREX project. Not to get too wizened here but some foresight could have saved a lot of work down the line. Surely this would have been a better use of money than the extra useless lane on the Evans Bridge(anyone know the reasoning here, I don't see Evans being widened anytime soon?) or the High Line Canal underpass(which should have been built at the Yale station instead IMO)

By my count this is the third major TREX fix so far
Union Ave Bridge Widening
Park Meadows validate only bridge debacle
Colorado Station Bridge of least resistance

Anyway what is done is done, my sour grapes aside this will in large be an improvement for the neighborhood.
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  #6554  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 3:56 AM
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Bridge of least resistance, I like that.

I still find the existence if the Southmoor Station to be a bit of a debacle. Mayor Webb was absolutely right about Hampden being the better spot. But then, the station locations all along the corridor (south of Yale) leave something to be desired.
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  #6555  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 4:16 AM
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Hampden would have absolutely been better, especially if they had punched the I225 line across the golf course and actually run it down the Hampden ROW. They could have easily put a parking garage where the hotel was torn down or where the "District" apartment block was built.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I still find the existence if the Southmoor Station to be a bit of a debacle. Mayor Webb was absolutely right about Hampden being the better spot. But then, the station locations all along the corridor (south of Yale) leave something to be desired.
If I ever win the lotto #2 on my developers revenge list is to buy the house on the west side of the Southmoor Station and turn it into a hole in the ground to connect to the tunnel. #1 of course being a whole slew of 20 story towers along Sheridan after I buy off the Edgewater council. This assuming I run out of you know productive things to do with my millions.
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  #6556  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 5:14 AM
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EDIT: Original post removed on the behest of the DUS anti-through-line illuminati conspiracy.

Last edited by The Dirt; Mar 6, 2014 at 5:26 AM.
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  #6557  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Bridge of least resistance, I like that.

I still find the existence if the Southmoor Station to be a bit of a debacle. Mayor Webb was absolutely right about Hampden being the better spot. But then, the station locations all along the corridor (south of Yale) leave something to be desired.
I have said this for years.

Compare T-Rex with a very similar level of technology employed in a light rail line done correctly- pay particular attention to the lack of tight turns, the lack of grades, station design, and the average speed.

Oh yes, the light rail cars are almost identical to RTDs cars- except that they have high platform boarding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C1HjIouaEc

And, as I have stated many times, the deficiencies in our light rail system are not the result of our ignorance. Choices were made deliberately and, too often, for the wrong reasons. Check out from 8:19 where the line goes from freeway running into downtown. Compare this with Osage to DUS light.

Much of our light rail system is a "hooterville trolley" created as a after thought for other financial purposes.

There are reasons why Calgary's light rail cars 3x the ridership as our system. Simple reasons.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
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  #6558  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
There are reasons why Calgary's light rail cars 3x the ridership as our system. Simple reasons.
There are reasons, but you have them completely backwards. The problems with the T-REX line have everything to do with the suburban stations. It may be slowish, but the downtown portion of the light rail is the only part that works. There is more to transit effectiveness than raw speed - you have it all wrong.
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  #6559  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
There are reasons, but you have them completely backwards. The problems with the T-REX line have everything to do with the suburban stations. It may be slowish, but the downtown portion of the light rail is the only part that works. There is more to transit effectiveness than raw speed - you have it all wrong.
I am afraid, sir, I do not. I am talking about grade, curves, and, speed. I am talking about station placement, access to stations, etc.

Very poor design. Look at other systems Bunt, rather than rationalize what we have as being our only choice. That simply is not true.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
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  #6560  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2014, 3:10 PM
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Give me an example of how a light rail travels through a downtown, in a way that we could've done for comparable cost, that we should have modeled ourselves after. Give me an example. Remember, that was built as a starter system on a bare-bones budget. So give me something apples to apples that we could've done better, north of Colfax.

Don't get me wrong, I love how Honolulu is doing it. But they're building one line for the cost of Fastracks.
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