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  #6501  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2014, 6:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Launch 12 View Post
Happy to, except it's not very evident on how to upload photos w/o linking to a URL. Is there another way to post? Suggestions w/o the typical condescension of this thread please. thanks.
Just send it to one if us and we'll post, that's easier. Me, or I'm sure Cirrus is VERY interested in the map.
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  #6502  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2014, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I'll add, let's not forget that the entire reason Colorado is at the forefront of these public-private partnerships is not a mystery - it's TABOR. We need a private player to bond for us because for the public to do it would require a costly election; one that is, based on all polling on the question, unlikely to be successful. And TABOR - or at least, the portion of it that requires an referendum for taxes and multi-fiscal year obligations of governments - remains very popular among the electorate.

If we don't trust our government to provide our services for us, then we are going to have to trust the private sector to do it.

Wizened - I am speculating here, so I could be wrong. But based on some of the things you say (mostly about distrust of folks in power), I assume you probably voted in favor of TABOR back in the day. At the time, did you think this would be the outcome of it - the privatization of government? I assume probably not. But I am curious.
I am a fiscal conservative. But, I also realize that TABOR has flexibility when the people start to really squeal. That, Bunt, IMO, is the key here.

***********************

Government bureaucracies rationalize their existence by the size of the budget they can get. Unlike private business which looks at the bottom line and tries to maximize profit, government bureaucracies try to increase approved budgets and spend more money.

Government bureaucracies tend to exaggerate public need to increase budgets that are then spent on employees, managers, and, most importantly, on projects given out to a tightly knit group of private vendors.

The Greater CDOT (and RTD too) is a collection of employees, managers, and, contractors. CDOT, by it's very nature as a general contractor to a network of private businesses, is very concerned with the welfare of businesses with whom CDOT has done businesses for years.

Consider the CDOT US 36 improvement package as an extremely expensive way to feed road construction companies with which CDOT has decades of shared experience, i.e., it became more important for CDOT to feed it's contracting businesses than being upfront with the public.

*************

I thought about this yesterday, and, was struck by what this might be. The company names I use and the countries are for illustrative purposes:

A) Part of Goldman Sachs is a business which connects sources of money with those who can afford to service acquired debt. GS makes it's money in this business silo by charging a fee for connecting supplier with user. As such, over the years, tens of thousands of man hours have been spent writing contracts that protect whomever provides the money.

B) GS has sources and the skills to manage money, either through money management partnerships, or banks. This 'portfolio' is then marketed by GS to companies looking to privatize, to LLCs that want to spend money on capital construction, to companies that want to buy another company, and to US state government bureaucracies.

Let's do some assumptions here about how CDOTs partners look at GS.

GS might have money from China that passes through Singapore that desires the combination of the best rate of interest payout, and the lowest risk.

GS, having sold the idea to CDOT about international financing, then goes to "X" international companies and shows them how they can make a profit after paying the interest on Chinese money.

When the contracts are finalized, GS no longer has any responsibility legally, as GS was a broker to, not a party to, the transaction.

With GS out of picture, having made, say, $40 or $50 million, those that borrowed the money have to service the debt. There basically are two ways to do this: first, pay interest costs until cash flow exceeds operating expenses via a second high interest loan, or 2nd by having the cash assets to pay debt service until cash flow exceeds operating expense.

We do not have any idea about what these conditions are because the contract does not apply to the Australian companies borrowing money, but, to how CDOT interacts with them on US 36.

Do we know, for example, at what interest rate this loan has? We can tell a bit by what the conditions of the contract are, indirectly. For example, say the money is at 6%, and, the companies borrow $500,000,000. So $30,000,000 per year might be the annual cost, per year, for the length of the contract (assuming that the note for the Australian contractors is both unchangeable and for 50 years). Without adjustment then the loan payoff would then be $1,500,000,000. However, money lenders are not fools, and, inflation has to be written into the loan, as a 5% real inflation rate divides money in half about every 14 years. Over the life of the contract, then, that $30,000,000 loses approximately 7/8ths of it's value. Unquestionably there are built in escalators independent of published, US CPI on the loaned money.

We, IMO, can also assume that these companies request a profit margin equal to the REAL CPI + a margin which escalates over the course of 50 years.

We just do not know what is really going on and IMO while the creditors have protection from CDOT via contract, CDOT does not have protection from uncontrollable financial manipulation abroad.

At least when money is borrowed by US corporations for such projects, such as the Greater DUS project, money conditions are fairly visible, and, the sources of money are (theoretically) subject to US law.

This, IMO, is likely not true here.

Oh yes, a side bet for $1.00, Bunt. Bet most of the steel is Chinese.
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  #6503  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
I am a fiscal conservative. But, I also realize that TABOR has flexibility when the people start to really squeal. That, Bunt, IMO, is the key here.

***********************

Government bureaucracies rationalize their existence by the size of the budget they can get. Unlike private business which looks at the bottom line and tries to maximize profit, government bureaucracies try to increase approved budgets and spend more money.

Government bureaucracies tend to exaggerate public need to increase budgets that are then spent on employees, managers, and, most importantly, on projects given out to a tightly knit group of private vendors.

The Greater CDOT (and RTD too) is a collection of employees, managers, and, contractors. CDOT, by it's very nature as a general contractor to a network of private businesses, is very concerned with the welfare of businesses with whom CDOT has done businesses for years.

Consider the CDOT US 36 improvement package as an extremely expensive way to feed road construction companies with which CDOT has decades of shared experience, i.e., it became more important for CDOT to feed it's contracting businesses than being upfront with the public.

*************

I thought about this yesterday, and, was struck by what this might be. The company names I use and the countries are for illustrative purposes:

A) Part of Goldman Sachs is a business which connects sources of money with those who can afford to service acquired debt. GS makes it's money in this business silo by charging a fee for connecting supplier with user. As such, over the years, tens of thousands of man hours have been spent writing contracts that protect whomever provides the money.

B) GS has sources and the skills to manage money, either through money management partnerships, or banks. This 'portfolio' is then marketed by GS to companies looking to privatize, to LLCs that want to spend money on capital construction, to companies that want to buy another company, and to US state government bureaucracies.

Let's do some assumptions here about how CDOTs partners look at GS.

GS might have money from China that passes through Singapore that desires the combination of the best rate of interest payout, and the lowest risk.

GS, having sold the idea to CDOT about international financing, then goes to "X" international companies and shows them how they can make a profit after paying the interest on Chinese money.

When the contracts are finalized, GS no longer has any responsibility legally, as GS was a broker to, not a party to, the transaction.

With GS out of picture, having made, say, $40 or $50 million, those that borrowed the money have to service the debt. There basically are two ways to do this: first, pay interest costs until cash flow exceeds operating expenses via a second high interest loan, or 2nd by having the cash assets to pay debt service until cash flow exceeds operating expense.

We do not have any idea about what these conditions are because the contract does not apply to the Australian companies borrowing money, but, to how CDOT interacts with them on US 36.

Do we know, for example, at what interest rate this loan has? We can tell a bit by what the conditions of the contract are, indirectly. For example, say the money is at 6%, and, the companies borrow $500,000,000. So $30,000,000 per year might be the annual cost, per year, for the length of the contract (assuming that the note for the Australian contractors is both unchangeable and for 50 years). Without adjustment then the loan payoff would then be $1,500,000,000. However, money lenders are not fools, and, inflation has to be written into the loan, as a 5% real inflation rate divides money in half about every 14 years. Over the life of the contract, then, that $30,000,000 loses approximately 7/8ths of it's value. Unquestionably there are built in escalators independent of published, US CPI on the loaned money.

We, IMO, can also assume that these companies request a profit margin equal to the REAL CPI + a margin which escalates over the course of 50 years.

We just do not know what is really going on and IMO while the creditors have protection from CDOT via contract, CDOT does not have protection from uncontrollable financial manipulation abroad.

At least when money is borrowed by US corporations for such projects, such as the Greater DUS project, money conditions are fairly visible, and, the sources of money are (theoretically) subject to US law.

This, IMO, is likely not true here.

Oh yes, a side bet for $1.00, Bunt. Bet most of the steel is Chinese.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. As evidence of this, Schedule 13, Section 1.3 - Buy America applies - there will be no Chinese steel.

As for the rest... nevermind.

Last edited by bunt_q; Feb 24, 2014 at 12:41 AM.
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  #6504  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 3:06 AM
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Photo by bunt_q. Map by RTD.
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Last edited by Cirrus; Feb 24, 2014 at 8:41 PM.
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  #6505  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 3:23 AM
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Having Brighton labelled really adds to the map.
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  #6506  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 3:28 AM
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Why can't we be like every other cool city and have straight / 45 degree lines? This map is going to make me angry. It's WAY too literal. Don't mean to be a 'downer' or 'negative' but this map really blows and it's kind of embarrassing.
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  #6507  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 5:26 AM
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Just found this website on protected bicycle intersections. There is a pretty clever video that shows how it would take up no more space than a standard intersection.
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  #6508  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanD View Post
Why can't we be like every other cool city and have straight / 45 degree lines? This map is going to make me angry. It's WAY too literal. Don't mean to be a 'downer' or 'negative' but this map really blows and it's kind of embarrassing.


While I agree that the lines could be more straight, the map doesn't bother me much and is better than what I thought RTD might put out. I don't see the map as that much different than the NYC subway map in how it represents lines and stations. I think when they apply the lines to a map that shows streets, like the current map that shows fare zones, it may look less chaotic.
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  #6509  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Launch 12 View Post
I don't see the map as that much different than the NYC subway map in how it represents lines and stations. I think when they apply the lines to a map that shows streets, like the current map that shows fare zones, it may look less chaotic.
There's a lot of chaos with the NYC metro because there are many more lines, the Fastracks map has an opportunity to look nice and clean because we have under 15 lines. I do, however, agree with you about overlaying the streets, it would make the Fastracks map look a lot better.



If we are going to do a good map I think Dan's would be best..

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Last edited by RyanD; Feb 24, 2014 at 4:15 PM.
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  #6510  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
You really have no idea what you are talking about. As evidence of this, Schedule 13, Section 1.3 - Buy America applies - there will be no Chinese steel.

As for the rest... nevermind.
I owe you a $1.00 (possibly).

At least I question. And, there is merit to my parts of my argument.

I totally dislike the secrecy and the inability for at least my elected representative to be forced to state a) yes I have read the agreement, and b) I personally will vote for it's approval.

The rest? I have drank with Goldman Sachs people during the boom. The prevailing observations centered around just how gullible and stupid people are. Of course, they did drink and snort a lot, and, bathe themselves in upper end consumer goods. I will have to admit that I have never seen so many ugly dudes with drop dead gorgeous women and a smattering of pretty men.

And, while I no longer associate with those with whom I have lost money (they knew I was stupid too), I am sure many are still there selling highly profitable agreements under "opaque circumstances." After all, people with IQs of 160 tend to be able to sweet talk you into anything*, when they have a proven track record.
Butter you up, present a highly "literate" presentation with payoffs related to fairly complex DIF E Q and tickle you with how rich you "is gonna be."

And Bunt, upper level government bureaucrats don't take much effort to preen. Tell them how bright and knowledgeable they are and they'll tell you their life story. Of course that get's boring and repetitive, but, hey they'll put dinner on your table..

*People with the ability to get you to clean their bathroom as a spiritual experience.

************
EDIT: The $500,000,000 figure I used is not the $132,000,000 that is talked about as the commitment of partners. Rather this is outside the contract with CDOT and is used to operate the 6 companies until they are profitable. This is on the opaque side, as it has nothing to do directly with the contract, so we have no idea what the terms these companies have with their vendors, as arranged by GS. None. However, I can guarantee you that extremely bright people both the GS and their money sources have viewed return on investment with the utmost precision. Remember that GS is not in the business of fixing up infrastructure, it is the business of providing profit to money sources over the long haul, and, getting the party to whom the money is loaned to, to agree to terms that makes an above real return on their investment. That is what they get paid the big bucks. On a less opaque level, look at how GS works with those that either want to privatize or be sold to another company in the US. Simple in theory, but the devil is in the details.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Feb 24, 2014 at 6:14 PM.
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  #6511  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:39 PM
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Oh how about Steve Boland's version

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  #6512  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:43 PM
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Wiz, by this time this topic is for far from transportation we've derailed the thread. We should probably continue in chit-chat.
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  #6513  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 11:39 PM
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That Steve Boland map is very interesting Cirrus, hadn't seen it before.

The diagrammatic view especially is miles ahead of the squished geographic maps that RTD wedges above the train doors now, not sure how well it might handle the entire system though. I have been on a metro somewhere(barcelona maybe?) that used a horizontal map configuration above the door with lighted LEDs that showed the current station, useful for tourists at least.
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  #6514  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 12:46 AM
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That Steve Boland map is very interesting Cirrus, hadn't seen it before.

The diagrammatic view especially is miles ahead of the squished geographic maps that RTD wedges above the train doors now, not sure how well it might handle the entire system though. I have been on a metro somewhere(barcelona maybe?) that used a horizontal map configuration above the door with lighted LEDs that showed the current station, useful for tourists at least.
Seoul had these, too. I think Tokyo does as well.

Seoul:



Source:
Seven Strange Ways Technology is integrated in South Korea


More like seven kick ass ways.


Seoul also had a song for transferring

Video Link


However, the old song made for a hysterically great & nostalgic ESL song.
Video Link


Ah the Jungang line. It brings back the feels.


Also, NYC? Get your baby maps out of here:



Note that the lines snake back on themselves, because the line is like 60 miles long.
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Last edited by seventwenty; Feb 25, 2014 at 1:04 AM.
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  #6515  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 2:15 AM
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The diagrammatic view especially is miles ahead of the squished geographic maps that RTD wedges above the train doors now, not sure how well it might handle the entire system though.
Without spending more than about 5 minutes on it, I imagine pretty much like so:
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Last edited by Cirrus; Feb 25, 2014 at 3:52 AM.
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  #6516  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:03 AM
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Without spending more than about 5 minutes on it, I imagine pretty much like so:
(map)
Yep, I ended up drawing pretty much the same thing after my previous comment. The I225 line ends up pretty distorted and I don't really like splitting the West line and the Gold line but I don't see a clear way to do it w/o splitting the NW and Gold line which makes even less sense.

My comment about the light up maps was made more in the spirit of pointing out the squished maps currently being used above the doors rather than as a something novel. Still until Denver comes to a more concrete understanding of our transit system it really makes no sense to have more than the current vinyl sticker which is at least in theory easily fixed.

Last edited by Cirrus; Feb 25, 2014 at 7:04 PM.
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  #6517  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:12 AM
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Unrelated, I got a response back from RTD regarding the implementation of the Smart Card "fare media" system.

"Since the launch of CollegePass and EcoPass smart cards last year we have identified opportunities to improve and enhance MyRide. As such, we don't have set date for the introduction of MyRide, but we intend to have more information about MyRide later this year"

Still in a holding pattern I guess. One would think that there would only be software changes as all the hardware has been in place for a couple years now. Perhaps they have decided to change the scanning procedures which would involve some retraining of the user base. Either way its a slow moving project to reinvent something which is standard fare(excuse the pun) in many, many cities.

"later this year" does not inspire much confidence. Oh well.
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  #6518  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 7:01 PM
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"Since the launch of CollegePass and EcoPass smart cards last year we have identified opportunities to improve and enhance MyRide. As such, we don't have set date for the introduction of MyRide, but we intend to have more information about MyRide later this year"
I've heard that they were having trouble with the POS terminals that are to be installed at retail outlets such as King Soopers and Safeway.

I love the idea of having a system map that presents real-time updates on the trains. Given that RTD does have the real-time stop information implemented on the bus fleet and plans to do the same for the rail fleet sometime before the end of this century it would be nice to get real-time maps about 2136 or so.
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  #6519  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
I've heard that they were having trouble with the POS terminals that are to be installed at retail outlets such as King Soopers and Safeway.

I love the idea of having a system map that presents real-time updates on the trains. Given that RTD does have the real-time stop information implemented on the bus fleet and plans to do the same for the rail fleet sometime before the end of this century it would be nice to get real-time maps about 2136 or so.
FWIW I have also heard rumors of an official real time tracking phone app due this year.
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  #6520  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 9:59 PM
DenverRider2 DenverRider2 is offline
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What is going on here at 18th and Lawrence? Looks to me like the beginning of a protected bike lane, but maybe something to do with the circulator?

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