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  #21  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Well for me I have insurance and given my families health history I will outlive the American average by a decade at minimum. Also the primary reason american life expectancy is lower is A) obesity (which I am not) and B) smoking which I dont do and C) Suicide, which I'd never consider

So I am not that worried and considering I was able to find a very basic job in my early 20's for 35 hours a week that provided adequate healthcare I have a very hard time feeling sympathy for those who dont.

Que "yeah but what about these other people" what do you expect me to do about that? If we enact universal healthcare I'll still pay for a supplemental above that (as most Europeans with means to also do) so it does nothing but increase my and my friends/families healthcare costs.
We are talking about the average person of a country, not specific cases. I live in a country whose GDP per capita is one fifth of that of the US, but I’m better off than most Americans. That’s irrelevant though as we are discussing countries, not forumers.

What I’m saying is we cannot assume Americans are 25% “better” than Western Europeans just because its GDP per capita is 25% higher. There are several other factors other than the economic output of a given year.
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Also the primary reason american life expectancy is lower is A) obesity (which I am not) and B) smoking which I dont do and C) Suicide, which I'd never consider
I'll add one more:

D] Societal acceptance of deviant behavior regarding drug use. It's no longer a crime to openly shoot up and toss needles in the street in many cities.

The relatively recent epidemic of heroin has been responsible for the recent decrease in life expectancy in America. It's killing 20 year olds before they can reproduce, not 50 year olds like is the case with other drugs like alcohol and tobacco.
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:32 AM
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.. but I’m better off than most Americans.
How did you arrive at this conclusion?
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 10:58 AM
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Income, general health, years of schooling, just to mention the HDI triad. But why you ask or care? The whole point of my post was to illustrate how mine or obadno's personal experiences are irrelevant when discussing the general quality of life in countries.
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
What I’m saying is we cannot assume Americans are 25% “better” than Western Europeans just because its GDP per capita is 25% higher. There are several other factors other than the economic output of a given year.
How else would you measure relative economic differences?
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:11 PM
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Basically the only circumstance where I could see large-scale European immigration to the U.S. is if there was some ecological catastrophe. Like say global warming melts enough of the Greenland ice cap, causing the Gulf Stream to be pushed into deeper waters and not reach Europe. No Gulf Stream would, according to some climate models, chill Europe down to as much as the parts of North America on a similar latitude (Canada, more or less), which aside from being nasty to live through, would make it impossible for Europe to support itself via agriculture.

There's basically three things stopping European immigration from happening now.

1. Most of Europe is highly politically stable, meaning no refugees.

2. Europe as a whole has very low birth rates - particularly when you discount births by recent immigrants. Even if you're a country with a mediocre economy (like say Italy) when the number of 18 year olds entering the workforce each year is smaller than the year prior you're going to have enough job opportunities available domestically that there will be no reason to leave home. Indeed, refugee crisis aside, basically all Western European countries now have birth rates so low they basically need immigrants just to keep things going.

3. Most of the lower-income European countries are members of the EU, which means you can always, if you're a younger, underemployed person, migrate within Europe. This is why countries like Lativia and Romania are basically collapsing demographically - everyone young is leaving for Western Europe.

It's within the realm of possibility we might see another burst of immigration from Eastern European countries not within the EU (like Russia) similar to what we experienced in the early 1990s, but I wouldn't bet on it. Even in those cases, it's generally easier to try to migrate into the EU than get to the U.S. anyway.
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by RST500 View Post

Western Europe:
Overall has a much higher standing of living than the US.
Not really. The US is in the highest tier of nations as far as quality of life.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...di-by-country/
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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:31 PM
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Middle Class European households have much lower incomes than middle class U.S. households. Yes, it's more equal, but not as wealthy.

I don't think many people would define higher living standards as being poorer as long as long as others are poorer too.

.
That depends on your definition of "poor". Your average German may have lower income than your average American, but that does not necessarily make the German "poor", even if relatively speaking they're less rich than Americans on average.

Warren Buffett is "poorer" than Jeff Bezos, but that doesn't mean that Buffett is "poor" by any measure.
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
How else would you measure relative economic differences?
Life expectancy, years of schooling, average hours worked, income spent on health/education, levels of debt, etc., there are plenty of things we can look at.

GDP per capita means GDP per capita only, and the US is 25% above Western Europe and that's it. It's a very important indicator, but it's not a proxy for quality of life.
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Life expectancy, years of schooling, average hours worked, income spent on health/education, levels of debt, etc., there are plenty of things we can look at.
None of these things are related to wealth. You're arguing that we shouldn't use objective wealth metrics, because they don't fit your narrative.

And we aren't talking about quality of life, we're talking about standard of living. Yes, somewhere like Italy arguably has higher quality of life than, say Germany, or the U.S. But no one would seriously argue Italy has higher standard of living.
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
None of these things are related to wealth. You're arguing that we shouldn't use objective wealth metrics, because they don't fit your narrative.

And we aren't talking about quality of life, we're talking about standard of living. Yes, somewhere like Italy arguably has higher quality of life than, say Germany, or the U.S. But no one would seriously argue Italy has higher standard of living.
I have no narrative, nor take part in those nonsensical US vs W.Europe discussions. I'm not talking about wealth, but quality/standard of life in a context of immigration.

People don't migrate based on GDP per capita only, specially when the gap is so small as in this case. There are other factors playing and that's precisely the reason there are virtually no more migration from Western Europe to the American continent anymore.

In any case, despite the horrible economic perspectives, Italian "quality of life" (big wealth stocks, no money spent on rents, etc.) stops big immigration flows from Italy to Germany or Britain, let alone to the United States.
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
We are talking about the average person of a country, not specific cases. I live in a country whose GDP per capita is one fifth of that of the US, but I’m better off than most Americans. That’s irrelevant though as we are discussing countries, not forumers.

What I’m saying is we cannot assume Americans are 25% “better” than Western Europeans just because its GDP per capita is 25% higher. There are several other factors other than the economic output of a given year.
You said you'd rather live in a country with a higher life expectancy but why would I care what the average life expectancy is when I know I will already surpass it baring a freak accident?
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Life expectancy, years of schooling, average hours worked, income spent on health/education, levels of debt, etc., there are plenty of things we can look at.

GDP per capita means GDP per capita only, and the US is 25% above Western Europe and that's it. It's a very important indicator, but it's not a proxy for quality of life.
Thats what we said several posts ago, you can look at more subjective measures or the hard economic numbers and infer what you want.

Many people rightly or wrongly will only look at one half of that equation. Or people will focus on whats most important.

IE I want to live in Denmark because they are allegedly "the happiest country in the world" While others might not really value that metric and prefer to move to the USA because they feel like having the highest chance of generating wealth as the most important.
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Not really. The US is in the highest tier of nations as far as quality of life.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...di-by-country/
Im not necessarily the biggest fan of HDI its very biased towards highly urbanized post-industrial countries.

There are many ways I could consider living in a quite rural town in Montana as "better for Humans" than living in a cramped apartment in a Japanese city.
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 3:47 PM
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The average quality of life is better in Western Europe for MORE people that in the US. Yes, a middle class life in a European city means a cramped apartment, while in suburban Atlanta it means a single family house. Besides housing, you will get 6 weeks paid vacation vs. 2-3 weeks in the US, shorter work weeks, long maternity leave, if your sick with a cold you can take a week off no questions ask, very affordable or free university education and so on.

In Europe you wont see very many slums and truly poor areas either, like how you would see bad parts of Atlanta or Detroit with people living in poverty. More people have access to a European middle class than in the US middle class, although the middle class experience will be different. They make more of an effort to bring the poor into the middle class, which I think is done mostly by having near free college education available, as well as good healthcare for all and other social programs.
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 3:55 PM
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I don't think these are strong arguments.

It's subjective, but I think there are proportionally more slum areas in Western Europe than the U.S. Rundown govt. housing is common. And professional jobs in the U.S. usually have similar leave/vacation policies as Europe.

And universities in the U.S. are free/near free to most households too. Elite universities are essentially free if household income is below 150k. If we made universities totally free, Europe-style, it would subsidize the rich.

If the argument is "the poorest Europeans have a better quality of life than the poorest Americans", that's likely true, especially if you're discounting the poorer Mediterranean states.
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 4:19 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I don't think these are strong arguments.

It's subjective, but I think there are proportionally more slum areas in Western Europe than the U.S. Rundown govt. housing is common. And professional jobs in the U.S. usually have similar leave/vacation policies as Europe.

And universities in the U.S. are free/near free to most households too. Elite universities are essentially free if household income is below 150k. If we made universities totally free, Europe-style, it would subsidize the rich.

If the argument is "the poorest Europeans have a better quality of life than the poorest Americans", that's likely true, especially if you're discounting the poorer Mediterranean states.
What the what??
There are huge swaths of cities in the US that are rundown and crime ridden. You don't see that in Western Europe.
What jobs in the US other than teachers have 6 weeks paid vacation? I've never heard/seen that. It's common or mandatory in Europe.

Universities aren't free in the US, what are you talking about. Elite universities aren't free. You have to pay thousands in tuition in the US.
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 4:20 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
The average quality of life is better in Western Europe for MORE people that in the US. Yes, a middle class life in a European city means a cramped apartment, while in suburban Atlanta it means a single family house. Besides housing, you will get 6 weeks paid vacation vs. 2-3 weeks in the US, shorter work weeks, long maternity leave, if your sick with a cold you can take a week off no questions ask, very affordable or free university education and so on.
I wont deny your statements about there being both extreme poverty and wealth in the USA but I disagree with things like "maternity leave and Paid Vacation"

These are both examples of people equating a state minimum with the reality. There is no state minimum vacation days, or Maternity/Paternity leave and any number of benefits.

But the reality is very few middle class even low jobs outside of part time work offer no vacation nor leave because the labor market demands it as part of the compensation. In the USA thats left to the population either individually or as part of a labor union to negotiate with their private employer.

As a 17 year old mail room employee working under 40 hrs I had vacation and sick time of 2-3 weeks at 18 I qualified for full health and retirement benefits. This was a job that paid 11 bucks an hour.

A few years ago I has 7 paid weeks of vacation. 7! and Now I have no vacation, does that mean I cant take vacation? No, I can take as the job allows I am expected to preform and be available but I can take personal time too as needed.

Despite what the laws might say the reality on the ground is very different.
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 4:20 PM
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What the what??
There are huge swaths of cities in the US that are rundown and crime ridden. You don't see that in Western Europe.
What jobs in the US other than teachers have 6 weeks paid vacation? I've never heard/seen that. It's common or mandatory in Europe.

Universities aren't free in the US, what are you talking about. Elite universities aren't free. You have to pay thousands in tuition in the US.
Uh yeah because there are not crime ridden neighborhoods in Paris and London LOL

US universities are expensive they are also generally better than anything other than your top European schools, which is why they are filled with international students. There is also an enormous amount of grant and scholarship money available for students state, federally and privately. I only paid 8k out of pocket for 5 years at a major university. Including 2 years on Campus.

Not to mention many public education systems in Europe segregate and predetermine students and what/where they can go (vocational vs. University vs. none) that Americans would never allow socially.
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 4:22 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
What the what??
There are huge swaths of cities in the US that are rundown and crime ridden. You don't see that in Western Europe.
What jobs in the US other than teachers have 6 weeks paid vacation? I've never heard/seen that. It's common or mandatory in Europe.

Universities aren't free in the US, what are you talking about. Elite universities aren't free. You have to pay thousands in tuition in the US.
Many jobs get 6 weeks PTO, honestly some of the worst benefits are the ones offered by Government jobs.

I used to date a woman who worked in the administration of a major US university and ironically they treated their employees worse and offered crappier benefits than I ever saw in my corporate life.

sorry for the double reply
     
     
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