SAN ANTONIO | Urban Core Development Thread

[jaga185]

Originally Posted by venshard

Visit this site regularly but don't really ever post. I live at the intersection of Houston and Santa Rosa, a couple blocks away from this development, and there is a pretty hefty homeless population literally exactly where this development is taking place. I wonder how they're going to deal with that.

I was thinking that when the development was announced. I wonder if they will start to actually move them out of there or just leave them be. Because I feel like the amount of homeless people might affect possible residents.

[Fireoutofclay]

Originally Posted by venshard

Visit this site regularly but don't really ever post. I live at the intersection of Houston and Santa Rosa, a couple blocks away from this development, and there is a pretty hefty homeless population literally exactly where this development is taking place. I wonder how they're going to deal with that.

Hello venshard. The day laborers gather early in the morning on Houston Street between Frio St and Pecos la Trinidad. There used to be a sign on that street, but it' been removed - not sure when. They remain mostly in that area for the remainder of the day. They are pretty harmless; if they were made aware of a new gathering area I'm sure they would relocate.

[sirkingwilliam]

CENTRO SAN ANTONIO READY TO TAKE A SWING AT NEW DOWNTOWN STADIUM

After years of chatter among local business and political leaders about the merits of a new baseball stadium in the center city, Centro San Antonio has stepped up to the plate to help move such a project closer to reality. Centro has reached out to national stadium consultant Brailsford & Dunlavey to provide expertise on where such a ballpark should be developed, how it could be funded and what San Antonio can expect with regard to economic impact opportunities.

“We are ready to embark on a study for a downtown ballpark. We are in the process of finalizing the contract with the consultant,” Centro San Antonio President and CEO Pat DiGiovanni said.

Centro will fund the new study, which stadium supporters hope will trigger more serious discussions about the need for a venue that could accommodate a Triple-A team. Currently, San Antonio is home to the Missions, the Double-A affiliate of the San Diego Padres.

“We are starting to have a real conversation about a downtown stadium,” DiGiovanni said. “This study is an important element in how we proceed.”

Securing funding for a downtown ballpark will be one of the bigger challenges local leaders will face. Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff, for whom the Mission’s stadium is named, has been most vocal about the need for a new downtown ballpark. However, the county may be somewhat hamstrung in its ability to help fund such a project because of a contract it signed more than 15 years ago with the San Antonio Spurs. That arena operating agreement for what is now the AT&T Center includes a “No Competing Facilities” clause, which states in part that, during the term of the agreement, the county shall not directly or indirectly “own, manage, operate, control, finance, sponsor (or) develop” any indoor or outdoor sports venue with a capacity of 5,000 to 30,000 seats.

That may be one reason why San Antonio Mayor Ivy Taylor has become more involved in discussions about a new ballpark.

One option the city could explore is using future bond money to help finance a downtown stadium.

Taylor points to Charlotte, North Carolina, as an example of the level of economic activity a downtown ballpark can ignite. That city invested $54 million to develop a new home for the Triple-A Knights, BB&T Ballpark, which opened in 2013 in an urban area that needed a jolt.

BB&T Ballpark is expected to attract roughly $700 million worth of new development to the surrounding area, according to a 2014 Charlotte Observer report. Already, previously neglected blocks of real estate in the nearby Third Ward are filling up with new apartment buildings, restaurants and retail establishments as entrepreneurs look to grab some of the hundreds of thousands of baseball fans on their way into and out of the new stadium.

DiGiovanni said Brailsford & Dunlavey, which is based in Washington, D.C., has worked on a number of newer minor league ballpark projects, including Spirit Communications Park in Columbia, South Carolina. That roughly 8,500-seat stadium will anchor a larger Bull Street project, a public-private redevelopment of the former South Carolina State Hospital site.

The goal, said DiGiovanni, is to have Brailsford & Dunlavey launch its San Antonio study this month and compete its work by the end of the year.

“I think we have a team that can do the analysis and do it relatively quickly so that we can be in a position for the city’s bond cycle, if that becomes a funding source.”

[kornbread]

geez, let it go. They need a different approach with this.

First of all, stadiums have already been built in the past (Alamodome, Wolfe Stadium, Toyota soccer) and they have the results right in front of their faces. Were they economic generators? No; in San Antonio that has not happened. The closest was when the Spurs played at the Alamodome. A few small businesses opened in the Sunset Station area, but that was it.

It has nothing to do with the stadium. There are only a limited number of games in a year and that will not support a business for the year. Extra traffic on game days can be the big days for certain businesses, but that's it. Positive economic impact is more related to the location and its potential. Sports can be part of the experience. And, if they are looking for what makes sense sports-wise, then they should compare the enthusiasm for soccer as well.

If San Antonio wants to be part of MLS, then they need to locate the playing field in a desirable area. The location of Toyota field was a mistake. It can work for minor league, but narrow thinking that wound up putting the at&t center where it is now is not going to be seen as advantage when the league considers who should be awarded a franchise. And, I think if they compare minor league baseball to major league soccer it will show that they should consider the latter first.

I would be curious to see the attendance figures, ticket price comparisons, payrolls, etc. If they feel compelled to go down this path then look at the BIG picture.

Personally, there is so much more to plan for infrastructure-wise in downtown that a sports stadium is just a distraction that SA can't seem to get past

[Keep-SA-Lame]

Originally Posted by kornbread

geez, let it go. They need a different approach with this.

First of all, stadiums have already been built in the past (Alamodome, Wolfe Stadium, Toyota soccer) and they have the results right in front of their faces. Were they economic generators? No; in San Antonio that has not happened. The closest was when the Spurs played at the Alamodome. A few small businesses opened in the Sunset Station area, but that was it.

It has nothing to do with the stadium. There are only a limited number of games in a year and that will not support a business for the year. Extra traffic on game days can be the big days for certain businesses, but that's it. Positive economic impact is more related to the location and its potential. Sports can be part of the experience. And, if they are looking for what makes sense sports-wise, then they should compare the enthusiasm for soccer as well.

If San Antonio wants to be part of MLS, then they need to locate the playing field in a desirable area. The location of Toyota field was a mistake. It can work for minor league, but narrow thinking that wound up putting the at&t center where it is now is not going to be seen as advantage when the league considers who should be awarded a franchise. And, I think if they compare minor league baseball to major league soccer it will show that they should consider the latter first.

I would be curious to see the attendance figures, ticket price comparisons, payrolls, etc. If they feel compelled to go down this path then look at the BIG picture.

Personally, there is so much more to plan for infrastructure-wise in downtown that a sports stadium is just a distraction that SA can't seem to get past

Well said. The whole stadium fixation is just a white whale, a distraction.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by kornbread

geez, let it go. They need a different approach with this.

First of all, stadiums have already been built in the past (Alamodome, Wolfe Stadium, Toyota soccer) and they have the results right in front of their faces. Were they economic generators? No; in San Antonio that has not happened. The closest was when the Spurs played at the Alamodome. A few small businesses opened in the Sunset Station area, but that was it.

It has nothing to do with the stadium. There are only a limited number of games in a year and that will not support a business for the year. Extra traffic on game days can be the big days for certain businesses, but that's it. Positive economic impact is more related to the location and its potential. Sports can be part of the experience. And, if they are looking for what makes sense sports-wise, then they should compare the enthusiasm for soccer as well.

If San Antonio wants to be part of MLS, then they need to locate the playing field in a desirable area. The location of Toyota field was a mistake. It can work for minor league, but narrow thinking that wound up putting the at&t center where it is now is not going to be seen as advantage when the league considers who should be awarded a franchise. And, I think if they compare minor league baseball to major league soccer it will show that they should consider the latter first.

I would be curious to see the attendance figures, ticket price comparisons, payrolls, etc. If they feel compelled to go down this path then look at the BIG picture.

Personally, there is so much more to plan for infrastructure-wise in downtown that a sports stadium is just a distraction that SA can't seem to get past

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.

Both the Alamodome and Toyota Field have been economic generators.

The Alamodome was paid off within a couple of years. You don't think all the Final Fours, Bowl Games, baseball games, boxing matches, concerts, conventions, etc, etc haven't brought money to the city?

The same for Toyota on a much smaller scale.

Seriously, they may not have hit their intended purposes (yet) but to call them non economic generators is incredibly incorrect.

[Keep-SA-Lame]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.

Both the Alamodome and Toyota Field have been economic generators.

The Alamodome was paid off within a couple of years. You don't think all the Final Fours, Bowl Games, baseball games, boxing matches, concerts, conventions, etc, etc haven't brought money to the city?

The same for Toyota on a much smaller scale.

Seriously, they may not have hit their intended purposes (yet) but to call them non economic generators is incredibly incorrect.

If you would do a quick google search for "economic impact of sports stadiums", I think you would find that about 90% of the articles in the first five pages at the very least suggest the results are mixed. This Marketplace article is a good short summary:
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/bu...winners-cities

What did the Alamodome bring to its neighborhood? Even when the Spurs were there, St Paul's Square was pretty much a ghost town 90% of the time. Or, an even better example, what about the AT&T center? I'm not saying we shouldn't have built those buildings, stadiums have benefits beyond economics (as any loyal Spurs fan can attest). But to argue for a baseball stadium on purely economic grounds is voodoo economics.

A new stadium certainly wouldn't be a negative, but surely there are better things we could spend our money on towards the end of making downtown a more attractive place?

[kornbread]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.

They're talking about the facility to act as a catalyst to spur economic growth in an area, and they're trying to make this argument because they intend to use public dollars to pay for it.

I think it's foolishness. There's already momentum for economic development downtown, and there's plenty of areas where development can happen. If they work on investing in infrastructure that creates a good quality of life for the people who are actually moving into downtown it makes more sense.

There are better ways to use the space required for that type of facility (both publicly and privately), but if they must go down this road then weigh all options for the kind of facility/sport otherwise it's really just a favor to the owner of the minor league team.

[STLtoSA]

There is nothing wrong with publicly funded and operated stadiums as Economic Generators and general places of Public Assembly. However they are not good for Generating further economic development in an area.

This is what makes downtown stadiums better than others, like Wolff or the AT&T center.

A downtown stadium will bring people into the city on more nights a year to use infrastructure and resources that already exist. In downtown stadiums, I believe that the goal is to find an underutilized property or properties and the stadium itself is the redevelopment and economic generator. Construction Jobs in the short term and then game day and event day jobs after complete.

It is true that proponents of these stadiums usually oversell, that these things will trigger further development, but the truth is that they shouldn't have to. That is if it truly is a viable development.

A downtown Baseball stadium in San Antonio is a great idea (depending on the funding). The Wolff was a bad idea and the city really failed when it lost the Spurs to the County, moving them out of downtown.

If a downtown stadium does not come to fruition, it would not be a failure, but it could be a missed opportunity for the city if not pursued.

[kornbread]

Yeah, they are already going down that path. Why does it only have to be a baseball stadium? I mean if you're going to spend money on a study, then do it right.

There's no reason it can't be a soccer stadium as opposed to baseball; and if they think the path to MLS is to be stubborn and hold on to a site that's privately owned in another drive-in and out location it might very well be the second missed opportunity SA will have with MLS.

[fordman2800]

Originally Posted by STLtoSA

There is nothing wrong with publicly funded and operated stadiums as Economic Generators and general places of Public Assembly. However they are not good for Generating further economic development in an area.

This is what makes downtown stadiums better than others, like Wolff or the AT&T center.

A downtown stadium will bring people into the city on more nights a year to use infrastructure and resources that already exist. In downtown stadiums, I believe that the goal is to find an underutilized property or properties and the stadium itself is the redevelopment and economic generator. Construction Jobs in the short term and then game day and event day jobs after complete.

It is true that proponents of these stadiums usually oversell, that these things will trigger further development, but the truth is that they shouldn't have to. That is if it truly is a viable development.

A downtown Baseball stadium in San Antonio is a great idea (depending on the funding). The Wolff was a bad idea and the city really failed when it lost the Spurs to the County, moving them out of downtown.

If a downtown stadium does not come to fruition, it would not be a failure, but it could be a missed opportunity for the city if not pursued.

I agree with you. I think if San Antonio builds a downtown stadium...it should be built to accomodate possible future MLB team. Somewhat how Toyota Field was built for future seat expansion. I still believe that SA will attract a MLB team before an NFL team. I know the stadium will be be built (if built) to attract a AAA baseball team but it doesn't hurt to dream.

[jeffreininger]

I, for one, am a supporter of a DT baseball stadium. Building Wolff Stadium in it's current location and AT&T Center in it's was in no way an economic generator...that goes without saying. But there's no comparison between those and at DT baseball stadium. Can you imagine being a tourist in town for a few days and staying downtown? Who wouldn't want to spend a couple hours taking in a game within walking distance of your hotel? This seems like a no-brainer to me and great timing with the current desire to be downtown for locals as well. I see some great attendance numbers in our future if this stadium ever happens. Also, there's plenty of room near the old Fox Tech campus...just saying.

[Spoiler]

Has anyone considered where a downtown baseball stadium would go? My bet for location is the Fox Tech athletic grounds, which are no longer in use, and you could orient the stadium southwards, which would keep the sun out of the player's eyes and provide a great view of downtown beyond the outfield.

[Fireoutofclay]

Personally, I find baseball to be as exciting as watching grass grow, but the idea of a downtown ball park would add very exciting dynamic for downtown's portfolio. Normally I would consider this to be a "keeping up with the Jones's" move, but Centro San Antonio serves the interests of downtown's property owners and businesses. And If they are interested in pursuing this, then maybe it could work.

[SAinthe21stC]

Having a stadium downtown will be an amenity and not a generator (to the immediate area) vis a vis Alamodome at least not to the extent supporters will claim. It will be nice to have, especially with so many other downtown locations/destinations close by. City/Economic leaders will usually exaggerate the effects of such developments for fanfare. City/County leaders clearly made mistakes when they built the AT&T Center and Wolff Stadiums in their respective locations and adding insult to injury (County) by signing a non-compete clause with Spurs Sports and Entertainment.

I will be a lot happier when we have two or three pro teams here (MLS, NFL...). How or where those potential stadiums are built is another discussion entirely.

[sirkingwilliam]

I found this rendering of Hemisfair and the Civic Park online.

[Fireoutofclay]

These are older, but damn they are good. Gotta love this firm.

http://www.michaelgimber.com/other-work/

[The Model]

Originally Posted by Spoiler

Has anyone considered where a downtown baseball stadium would go? My bet for location is the Fox Tech athletic grounds, which are no longer in use, and you could orient the stadium southwards, which would keep the sun out of the player's eyes and provide a great view of downtown beyond the outfield.

OMG I immediately thought of this location because of the great view of downtown. I'm just afraid it might be a little out of reach of hotels and the restaurants on the riverwalk.

[The Model]

Originally Posted by jeffreininger

I, for one, am a supporter of a DT baseball stadium. Building Wolff Stadium in it's current location and AT&T Center in it's was in no way an economic generator...that goes without saying. But there's no comparison between those and at DT baseball stadium. Can you imagine being a tourist in town for a few days and staying downtown? Who wouldn't want to spend a couple hours taking in a game within walking distance of your hotel? This seems like a no-brainer to me and great timing with the current desire to be downtown for locals as well. I see some great attendance numbers in our future if this stadium ever happens. Also, there's plenty of room near the old Fox Tech campus...just saying.

On a business trip to Columbus, Ohio I did take in a baseball game in their triple A baseball stadium. I don't even like baseball and stayed 3 innings, but I must say the energy of the stadium, and the view of Columbus skyline in the outfield was awesome! Ever since then I have wanted a baseball stadium in downtown SA!!!

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by The Model

OMG I immediately thought of this location because of the great view of downtown. I'm just afraid it might be a little out of reach of hotels and the restaurants on the riverwalk.

It would be a pleasant stroll up San Pedro Creek.