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  #3881  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 7:56 AM
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phxSUNSfan phxSUNSfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Thirsty View Post
This is off topic, but every climate projection I've read has Tucson progressively turning into Phoenix/Yuma/Baghdad in the coming decades which makes sense except for... when ocean temperatures are high, the pacific low that causes the monsoon moves south and Tucson gets record rainfall.

Like everyone else on the internet; I've earned an advanced degree in fill in the blank from Wikipedia University.

Can anyone explain why my amateur meteorology is missing the big picture?
Quote:
Scientists expect the amount of land affected by drought to grow by mid-century—and water resources in affected areas to decline as much as 30 percent. These changes occur partly because of an expanding atmospheric circulation pattern known as the Hadley Cell—in which warm air in the tropics rises, loses moisture to tropical thunderstorms, and descends in the subtropics as dry air. As jet streams continue to shift to higher latitudes, and storm patterns shift along with them, semi-arid and desert areas are expected to expand.
http://www.climatehotmap.org/global-...s/drought.html

Also, Phoenix is roughly in the same boat as Tucson. Phoenix averages over 8" of rain a year while Tucson gets around 12". I have also heard that 10" or less is sometimes used to define a desert. Most scientist today do not use these hard figures to describe deserts as there are many subcategories. The Sonoran Desert is mostly a subtropical/semi-arid desert and is the wettest desert in the world...with the exception of some regions like Yuma which only receives about 3". However, you are wrong about Bagdad, AZ (unless you meant Baghdad, Iraq)...it actually gets more rain than Tucson and averages 14.4" a year (and 3" of snow per year). Phoenix, Tucson, and Bagdad receive much more rain than Las Vegas in the Mojave Desert. Vegas averages around 3.5" a year.

Last edited by phxSUNSfan; Mar 5, 2013 at 8:15 AM.
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  #3882  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 8:49 AM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by Thirsty View Post
This is off topic, but every climate projection I've read has Tucson progressively turning into Phoenix/Yuma/Baghdad in the coming decades which makes sense except for... when ocean temperatures are high, the pacific low that causes the monsoon moves south and Tucson gets record rainfall.

Like everyone else on the internet; I've earned an advanced degree in fill in the blank from Wikipedia University.

Can anyone explain why my amateur meteorology is missing the big picture?
As for global warming: I'm not on the DOOM AND GLOOM boat. This is great for human development. We haven't changed much at all genetically in 50,000 years, yet look at what we've achieved since the last ice age melted away to a warmer Earth 10,000 years ago! This was only achieved due to a warmer Earth.

Just imagine all of Canada and Siberia open for human use. It now currently stands as un-usable waste-of-space land. Most land on Earth resides in the higher latitudes. Look at Europe today. Most of the population is close to western areas of the European continent, where the warmer gulf stream currents of the Atlantic insulate it from the frigid interior climate zones of Russia.

El Nino, the seasonal warming of Pacific waters, translates to more rainfall to the Southwest. Wouldn't you guys want a warming effect? Warmer temperatures = more water vapor that the atmosphere is physically able to hold before saturation = increased rain fall = evaporative cooling.
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  #3883  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 9:37 AM
Thirsty Thirsty is offline
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Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan View Post
http://www.climatehotmap.org/global-...s/drought.html

Also, Phoenix is roughly in the same boat as Tucson. Phoenix averages over 8" of rain a year while Tucson gets around 12". I have also heard that 10" or less is sometimes used to define a desert. Most scientist today do not use these hard figures to describe deserts as there are many subcategories. The Sonoran Desert is mostly a subtropical/semi-arid desert and is the wettest desert in the world...with the exception of some regions like Yuma which only receives about 3". However, you are wrong about Bagdad, AZ (unless you meant Baghdad, Iraq)...it actually gets more rain than Tucson and averages 14.4" a year (and 3" of snow per year). Phoenix, Tucson, and Bagdad receive much more rain than Las Vegas in the Mojave Desert. Vegas averages around 3.5" a year.
Yes I was referring to Iraq; as in progressively hotter and dryer starting with a move toward a Phoenix climate more immediately (hotter and dryer) and trending towards Iraq in 100+ year projections.
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  #3884  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 2:19 PM
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Originally Posted by aznate27 View Post
Did you ever see the episode of "Life After People" when they talked about Southern Arizona? They said that it would turn back into a much greener dessert than it is today. The washes would flow again over time as the water table below was replenished with no people using it.
Nope, never seen it. I've been hearing about all kinds of talk about how much water Tucson has and they ranged from not enough to more than enough in the next 100 years or so with current population rate growth. A few experts are even honest enough to say 'We don't know'.

I'm always baffled when we can build miles and miles of canals or even oil pipelines and yet, we can't build a pipeline from Canada's excess 'fresh tasting' snow, Seattle/Portland/Alaska or the melting Arctic to distribute water all over.

Just want to plug this in , China's real estate market is about to burst .
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  #3885  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 5:49 AM
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Ritarancher Ritarancher is offline
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Environment Change
Since we're on this discussion lemme tell ya'll something. Me and my team down at the U of A have been extremely ALARMED by the changes in southern AZ for the past 8 years. There's a reason the government pays us to find out what would happen in a "life after people". While that show is accurate, it shows Phoenix, not Tucson. It says after people abandon their homes the dust will rise from empty lots, backyards and dried up lakes. What happened in 2008, was the exact thing, just in smaller amounts. The haboobs started coming like never before. The show did exaggerate their power, and the monsoon rains that turn them into mud (my poor uncle with a pool in Tempe). Those storms are rapidly reshaping the environment (between PHX and TUC). Last year we were very surprised that when testing soil in Eloy that dry sand particles (sand dunes style) were growing and were already two inches high. This sand was killing local plants and animals. It dried up many of the few oasis there was. Our estimates from 06 did not include a failed economy. We were in a panic to find out new future estimates. It was scary. Most of the very little vegetation along the interstate will die, exposing sand. That sand will act much like cement in the summer. Urban heat island will be a MAJOR problem between the cities with an average temps rising anywhere from 6-15 degrees.
The weirdest has yet to come. Tucson has the complete opposite coming. We have paved hundreds of square miles in the city. All that cement prevents water from going to the underwater aquifers, it will make more runoff. The architecture of the homes today also play a huge role in this overabundance of water coming our way. Houses today usually have a pitched roof, the water will runoff to the side of the house which has rolls in the soil so that it can flow into the road. The roads are designed so that they can flow into the washes. The washes are small trenches along the desert that are usually 6-10 inches wide and 6 inches deep that run towards the Santa Cruz. Those washes are not prepared for the new runoff. They erode a lot during each storm. More natural dams are created by the dirt and rocks pushed off. More oasis are made. Those oasis are soon surrounded by plants that are used to 1000 times less water. They plants only use some of the water but provide a canopy from the sun over the water and can help the oasis stay all year. These start adding up all over the place and soon the humidity rises just enough for one more storm to drop rain. More rain. The dams grow and so do the oasis and the humidity. The temperature can even drop 1 or 2 degrees because of this. More oasis, more mosquitoes and flies. Eventually the climate has changed just enough that we're not a desert. But the wildlife will say otherwise. All the plants we have now won't go away. In fact they'll be stronger than ever. Other plants will be unable to come in and reshape the landscape for about 150 years (if the changes are enough) because of our friend the Creosote Bush. The Creosote bush grows anywhere from death valley (they are the species with the oldest plant alive, 11,000 years old in an area that gets 3 inches of rain annually) to the farthest edge of New Mexico and Nevada. Why does this plant live in places where it gets 4times the water it needs? Because it has almost no competition. The plants roots send small toxins in the ground that make it very difficult for other plants to grow, including it's own species. It has dominated the landscape because of this, and it's range of adaptability. It can survive temperatures below zero and above 170. In places with more rain, it just grows better. Not until now does it have competition. It's competition comes from Lowes and the Home Depot. Those stores send thousands of plants that come from deserts that get almost NO rain. These plants also poison the ground. They love it here. (by the way more rain= more leaves which = more compost which = better soil) They are planted everywhere. Some species include the Argentine Mesquite and a species of Palo Verde and gum trees and ..... These trees are in heaven here. They are starting to get into the wild and are taller than the Velvet mesquite trees we have here. They make more leaves than the native velvet mesquites with less water. This will also help the oasis growing here. They are almost perfect for this environment, except for the wind. These trees come from a windless desert, when a strong monsoon storm comes they fall ( notice how velvet mesquites dont fall and argentine mesquites do) even if it's a well situated 60 year old tree. But natural selection will keep the strong ones alive. They will, like all desert plants, adapt very quickly and by 2100 will be the forest of Tucson. In 100 years we predict that a forest made up of Gum, Argentine Mesquites, Desert Cassia bushes and eucalyptus trees (sorry no Koalas) will be our desert forest. It's a hard idea to take in but it's very real. The only thing that will keep our temperatures up is cement and urban heat island. But even cement (the runoff and oasis maker) usually has a canopy of plants over it here in Tucson so it's hard to predict what our temperatures will be by 2100.
The downside of paving the desert is also the runoff. When the runoff goes through a wash that is completely surrounded by urban development, there's a problem. A lot of times our washes have been paved and are hard to erode, that will cause flooding. Another problem is erosion. The washes that can erode will and what ever sits on its banks will fall in. We are now taking that into consideration but were not in the 80s and earlier. The washes we build now have a lot of space for flooding and erosion. They don't have that much space on the Santa Cruze and other washes that go throughout midtown. It is nerve wrecking to watch the Santa Cruze be filled to the top after only a few inches of rain. Flooding will become more common in the future unless we start digging the preexisting washes deeper. (forgot to mention that more oasis= more ground water). We will get more problems to deal with. Its hard to tell if there has been more rain right now due to the minimal amounts of an increase it will have and the fact that droughts and rainy seasons exist. We need about fifteen years of data to figure that out.

Sorry if your confused. Yes I said that cement prevents water from turning into groundwater but then I said that it makes oasis that make more ground water. Yea it does. It's a really complex cycle of things contradicting itself and adding more steps along the process. The runoff will erode washes, create dams and oasis and forest before turning into groundwater rather than raining and going to the ground.


My wife and I share this account and have been for some time now, if younwere wondering . If you have any questions just ask, or if I made an error (not grammar) or a really confusing statement just tell me and I will clear it up and fix the mistake.
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  #3886  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 8:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ritarancher View Post
Environment Change
Since we're on this discussion lemme tell ya'll something. Me and my team down at the U of A have been extremely ALARMED by the changes in southern AZ for the past 8 years...Tucson has the complete opposite coming.
You work for the Institute of the Environment at the UofA? If you do, you aren't on the same page as your fellow researchers at the UofA and ASU's Global Institute of Sustainability. Their models show that the Southwest, including Tucson, will become more arid and the water supply will continue to decrease. Tucson depends on the CAP for most of its drinking water (even more so than Phoenix) and does not have adequate supplies if the Western Drought continues on pace with shrinking snowpacks:

Quote:
DROUGHT

Martin Hoerling, a federal meteorologist who spoke at the conference, said indications show this current drought is more likely due to cyclical causes than climate change. That's partly because the drop in rainfall over the past 30 years follows a very wet period, he said. The global climate studies used by the international climate change panel to project future climates showed no sign that a drying trend would occur this soon, he said. "This is not what the models say climate change will do at this point in history," said Hoerling, adding that the recent drought's strength appears consistent with natural phenomena such as El Niño and La Niña.

Yet this current drought has the "heavy fingerprint of warming," said the UA's Overpeck, since it is warmer than the known megadroughts. In recent years there's been increased springtime, northward movement of storm patterns away from this region - a phenomenon predicted by climate computer studies, he said.

"We had it this year very clearly when the storm tracks went north of Colorado and Nevada. Colorado had its driest spring in the instrumental record," he said. Because the Central Arizona Project bringing water to Tucson gets much of its supply from Northern states, "that matters big-time to us - more than what is going on down here," Overpeck said.
http://azstarnet.com/news/science/en...242c6cc2b.html

Phoenix actually has a vast supply of ground water...more than most places in the state: "Groundwater is a relatively abundant water supply with the median of reported well yields exceeding 1,000 gpm in the Phoenix and Pinal AMAs and exceeding 600 gpm in the other AMAs."
http://www.azwater.gov/azdwr/Statewi...roundwater.htm

You can read more about the Southwest and Climate Change at the UofA's website: http://www.southwestclimatechange.org/

And ASU's: http://sustainablecities.asu.edu/
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  #3887  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2013, 4:55 AM
Thirsty Thirsty is offline
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You lost me right here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritarancher View Post
Environment Change More natural dams are created by the dirt and rocks pushed off. More oasis are made. Those oasis are soon surrounded by plants that are used to 1000 times less water.
I grew up playing in these washes, and I've never seen anything but a highway of sand. The only dam/oasis effect I ever saw was where the stream flowed under a roadway.

The oasis effect of these supposed dams seems reasonable; they sound like the 200-300 yards upstream of the Sabino Canyon dam. IMO the extent of change to the city's micro-climate sounds a bit extreme though. Overall, an interesting projection.


Now please excuse these thoughts on drainage:

The city is on a natural floodplain, but our drainage plan makes no sense for a desert. Routing runoff in such a way to quicken it's exit from the city makes more sense in Louisiana than Arizona. Seems to me (not a hydrologist) that slowing water in responsible ways is best for the city AND the valley's natural environment. Deepening and paving washes feels like prescribing band-aids for a tumor.

In addition to many, many more runoff basins and either mandating or offering heavy incentives for water harvesting; I've always been curious about the possibility of partial dams. A dam that is only 10-15% of the wash depth to retain necessary drainage. Picture a big speed bump but instead of slowing the flow its purpose is to create the oasis environments you describe.

Like before I welcome input, especially from anyone who can tell me why it wouldn't work.

Last edited by Thirsty; Mar 7, 2013 at 5:08 AM.
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  #3888  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2013, 5:45 AM
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Ritarancher Ritarancher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan View Post
You work for the Institute of the Environment at the UofA? If you do, you aren't on the same page as your fellow researchers at the UofA and ASU's Global Institute of Sustainability. Their models show that the Southwest, including Tucson, will become more arid and the water supply will continue to decrease. Tucson depends on the CAP for most of its drinking water (even more so than Phoenix) and does not have adequate supplies if the Western Drought continues on pace with shrinking snowpacks:


http://azstarnet.com/news/science/en...242c6cc2b.html

Phoenix actually has a vast supply of ground water...more than most places in the state: "Groundwater is a relatively abundant water supply with the median of reported well yields exceeding 1,000 gpm in the Phoenix and Pinal AMAs and exceeding 600 gpm in the other AMAs."
http://www.azwater.gov/azdwr/Statewi...roundwater.htm

You can read more about the Southwest and Climate Change at the UofA's website: http://www.southwestclimatechange.org/

And ASU's: http://sustainablecities.asu.edu/
I don't work for the U of A as a profession, it's a weird way of explaining. My team and I, known as the Bachmeier team, meet up about 30 times a year when the EPA, UofA, Tucson Water, ADOT and other people who need to deal with the environment or want to see future predictions. We use the university's equipment and data often but other than that we don't deal with anybody there that much.

Thirsty
Yes the oasis effect seems drastic, it is barely noticeable because of constant plowing of desert land for new houses, and I was going 100 to 200 years in to the future in my description. If you take a look at google maps it's not too hard to find some oasis. You just got to look along the washes. I do agree that the wash system is not very appropriate for our city. That's why we constantly make giant holes along certain washes (ex. julian wash on kolb or wash on valencia and alvernon).
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  #3889  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2013, 8:24 AM
omarainza omarainza is offline
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Originally Posted by Ritarancher View Post
Environment Change
Since we're on this discussion lemme tell ya'll something. Me and my team down at the U of A have been extremely ALARMED by the changes in southern AZ for the past 8 years. There's a reason the government pays us to find out what would happen in a "life after people". While that show is accurate, it shows Phoenix, not Tucson. It says after people abandon their homes the dust will rise from empty lots, backyards and dried up lakes. What happened in 2008, was the exact thing, just in smaller amounts. The haboobs started coming like never before. The show did exaggerate their power, and the monsoon rains that turn them into mud (my poor uncle with a pool in Tempe). Those storms are rapidly reshaping the environment (between PHX and TUC). Last year we were very surprised that when testing soil in Eloy that dry sand particles (sand dunes style) were growing and were already two inches high. This sand was killing local plants and animals. It dried up many of the few oasis there was. Our estimates from 06 did not include a failed economy. We were in a panic to find out new future estimates. It was scary. Most of the very little vegetation along the interstate will die, exposing sand. That sand will act much like cement in the summer. Urban heat island will be a MAJOR problem between the cities with an average temps rising anywhere from 6-15 degrees.
The weirdest has yet to come. Tucson has the complete opposite coming. We have paved hundreds of square miles in the city. All that cement prevents water from going to the underwater aquifers, it will make more runoff. The architecture of the homes today also play a huge role in this overabundance of water coming our way. Houses today usually have a pitched roof, the water will runoff to the side of the house which has rolls in the soil so that it can flow into the road. The roads are designed so that they can flow into the washes. The washes are small trenches along the desert that are usually 6-10 inches wide and 6 inches deep that run towards the Santa Cruz. Those washes are not prepared for the new runoff. They erode a lot during each storm. More natural dams are created by the dirt and rocks pushed off. More oasis are made. Those oasis are soon surrounded by plants that are used to 1000 times less water. They plants only use some of the water but provide a canopy from the sun over the water and can help the oasis stay all year. These start adding up all over the place and soon the humidity rises just enough for one more storm to drop rain. More rain. The dams grow and so do the oasis and the humidity. The temperature can even drop 1 or 2 degrees because of this. More oasis, more mosquitoes and flies. Eventually the climate has changed just enough that we're not a desert. But the wildlife will say otherwise. All the plants we have now won't go away. In fact they'll be stronger than ever. Other plants will be unable to come in and reshape the landscape for about 150 years (if the changes are enough) because of our friend the Creosote Bush. The Creosote bush grows anywhere from death valley (they are the species with the oldest plant alive, 11,000 years old in an area that gets 3 inches of rain annually) to the farthest edge of New Mexico and Nevada. Why does this plant live in places where it gets 4times the water it needs? Because it has almost no competition. The plants roots send small toxins in the ground that make it very difficult for other plants to grow, including it's own species. It has dominated the landscape because of this, and it's range of adaptability. It can survive temperatures below zero and above 170. In places with more rain, it just grows better. Not until now does it have competition. It's competition comes from Lowes and the Home Depot. Those stores send thousands of plants that come from deserts that get almost NO rain. These plants also poison the ground. They love it here. (by the way more rain= more leaves which = more compost which = better soil) They are planted everywhere. Some species include the Argentine Mesquite and a species of Palo Verde and gum trees and ..... These trees are in heaven here. They are starting to get into the wild and are taller than the Velvet mesquite trees we have here. They make more leaves than the native velvet mesquites with less water. This will also help the oasis growing here. They are almost perfect for this environment, except for the wind. These trees come from a windless desert, when a strong monsoon storm comes they fall ( notice how velvet mesquites dont fall and argentine mesquites do) even if it's a well situated 60 year old tree. But natural selection will keep the strong ones alive. They will, like all desert plants, adapt very quickly and by 2100 will be the forest of Tucson. In 100 years we predict that a forest made up of Gum, Argentine Mesquites, Desert Cassia bushes and eucalyptus trees (sorry no Koalas) will be our desert forest. It's a hard idea to take in but it's very real. The only thing that will keep our temperatures up is cement and urban heat island. But even cement (the runoff and oasis maker) usually has a canopy of plants over it here in Tucson so it's hard to predict what our temperatures will be by 2100.
The downside of paving the desert is also the runoff. When the runoff goes through a wash that is completely surrounded by urban development, there's a problem. A lot of times our washes have been paved and are hard to erode, that will cause flooding. Another problem is erosion. The washes that can erode will and what ever sits on its banks will fall in. We are now taking that into consideration but were not in the 80s and earlier. The washes we build now have a lot of space for flooding and erosion. They don't have that much space on the Santa Cruze and other washes that go throughout midtown. It is nerve wrecking to watch the Santa Cruze be filled to the top after only a few inches of rain. Flooding will become more common in the future unless we start digging the preexisting washes deeper. (forgot to mention that more oasis= more ground water). We will get more problems to deal with. Its hard to tell if there has been more rain right now due to the minimal amounts of an increase it will have and the fact that droughts and rainy seasons exist. We need about fifteen years of data to figure that out.

Sorry if your confused. Yes I said that cement prevents water from turning into groundwater but then I said that it makes oasis that make more ground water. Yea it does. It's a really complex cycle of things contradicting itself and adding more steps along the process. The runoff will erode washes, create dams and oasis and forest before turning into groundwater rather than raining and going to the ground.
I like the sound of this. Honestly, I was going to ask the same question. If we were to plant the city more to create a microclimate would it create more rainfall because of the shade and cooling. I have been observing the same effects on my property. When I moved in 2 years ago, it was a barren patch. Now, with a little water, the few plantings are established and the need for water is less since the trees cast shade and cool the area. The grass retains the water from runoff and allows my yard to soak it in which allows even less watering, all the dead leaves improve the soil structure and the roots help to break up the hardpan. My house stands out from my neighbors' and they all think I spend alot on water but I don't. If this is true, I'd like to see the whole city develop that kind of environment.

sorry to add to the off topic.
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  #3890  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2013, 2:49 PM
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RitaRancher, looks like you got a neat job.

I have a few questions to RitaRancher or anyone :
1) How does your group arrive to their conclusions/predictions/research? Do you guys used computer models executed in a supercomputer? Is there a lab where you re-create your predictions? Do you guys base your predictions on other research?

2) Do you think that Tucson has enough water to support it's growing population in the next 100 or 200 years? If not, is there a solution to supply Tucson with water the next 100 or 200 years?

Questions that have been tucked in my brain since I can remember.
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  #3891  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2013, 6:51 PM
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Ritarancher Ritarancher is offline
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Originally Posted by farmerk View Post
RitaRancher, looks like you got a neat job.

I have a few questions to RitaRancher or anyone :
1) How does your group arrive to their conclusions/predictions/research? Do you guys used computer models executed in a supercomputer? Is there a lab where you re-create your predictions? Do you guys base your predictions on other research?

2) Do you think that Tucson has enough water to support it's growing population in the next 100 or 200 years? If not, is there a solution to supply Tucson with water the next 100 or 200 years?

Questions that have been tucked in my brain since I can remember.
A lot of times we make conclusions based off of real cities or abandon sites( ghost towns, Chernobyl, abandoned properties) or just based on observations. For example we used googles historical imagery of Tucson and noticed the changes. An example is my neighborhood wash is what will become the airport wash ( the bridges over the Tucson spectrum cover this wash). The wash travels from the neighborhood to desert and them to the airport and Tucson spectrum. The desert wash immediently after my neighborhood has 7% more plant life than before and the plants are as tall as 25 feet tall. That's unnatural for the desert. I have a velvet mesquite in my yard and it's only 4 years old but the size of a 20 year old one in the desert. It got big because of watering and cultivation. The wild trees along the wash following my neighborhood have not been cultivated but they're just as tall. We also make predictions based off of weather trends. The lab we mostly use is at the UofA but the USGS also has good equipment.
Water use in 200 years? All I can say is I hope the team in San Diego cn figure out that way to turn salt water into freshwater. In 100 years we might be pushing the limits in the CAP but it should sill work with minor improvements .
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  #3892  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2013, 7:22 PM
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Water use in 200 years? All I can say is I hope the team in San Diego can figure out that way to turn salt water into freshwater.
Yes, hopefully, fusion reaction would be possible in 200 years ... I think so. That may be enough to supply power to the desalinization plant in San Diego (or was it Carlsbad) or anywhere.
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  #3893  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2013, 10:11 PM
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A post not about the environment: I was looking at the Engberg Anderson Architects website for info about One East Broadway (hoping to see floor plans and prices, but I guess it's too soon for that =P ) and I noticed that the render they have is a floor shorter than the one from the Star. Does anyone know if it got scaled back?


http://www.engberganderson.com/#/por...ecttype/7/140/
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  #3894  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2013, 4:34 AM
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Ritarancher Ritarancher is offline
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Originally Posted by Schaeffa View Post
A post not about the environment: I was looking at the Engberg Anderson Architects website for info about One East Broadway (hoping to see floor plans and prices, but I guess it's too soon for that =P ) and I noticed that the render they have is a floor shorter than the one from the Star. Does anyone know if it got scaled back?


http://www.engberganderson.com/#/por...ecttype/7/140/
It'd be too late to scale back but in this case it might have been a building with multiple renderings and we dont know which is going to be built. I'm going to have to guess that the taller one is going to be built, it looks ALOT nicer and I think I remember seeing a sign at the construction site with the taller rendering AND it has a tower crane so that might suggest some height. I hope the building didn't get scaled back to the smaller and duller rendering.
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  #3895  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2013, 5:14 PM
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Looks like the roof of One East Broadway has a helipad? Makes me wonder if the owners of that property want to build one floor cheap and sell later for more $$$. Not unusual, they did somewhat the same with the District on 5th and those west side housing developments (mercado).
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  #3896  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2013, 7:12 AM
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Ritarancher Ritarancher is offline
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Off topic but California is building up. Both Los Angeles and San Fransisco have approved new skyscrapers that would become the city's tallest upon completion. In LA we've got the Wilshire Grand Tower. I saw some new renderings of it and I was drooling at the design. The building is going to be over 1,000 feet tall. In San Fransisco they're making the Transbay tower Like any tower in San Fransisco it is just ok, nothing more nothing worse. This tower is also going to be over 1000 feet tall. Trends often start in California, hopefully Tucson can get in on some of this expansion. We definitely have caught on the shopping center trend from California (Cotaro Farms, Spectrum, Marketplace, Oro Valley Marketplace, El Con, Houghton Town Center to name a few).
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  #3897  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2013, 4:46 PM
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Wilshire and Transbay looks nice. The other Transbay finalist don't look bad either, http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/T...#photo-2676199 . Love to see those built in Tucson. However, one building that I wished was never built is the Cadence. Passed by today and it looks like it's turning out to be worse than the rendering . I'd be happy if the design were similar as the Sentinel Plaza or the new MLK building. After all the help the city gave to the developer(s), the developer(s) gave back a sub-par design and much shorter.
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  #3898  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2013, 5:58 PM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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LA and SF are two entirely different beasts. First off, you have to realize the reason that both probably didn't grow up (as in height), especially in SF, is because of the possibility of earthquakes. I say especially in SF because, as I said, they are two different beasts. SF is very densely packed. There are 17,179.2 people per square mile in SF (still not NYC with 27,012.5 people per square mile - with 69,771 per square mile in Manhattan alone), while LA has 8,092 per square mile - less than half. This density is surely lowered by the fact that there is a mountain range that goes right through LA and there is land in the city limits that is not built on. The flip side to that, though, is that there is more land, if they can build on it, in LA and plenty right outside LA (to the north and west) that is undeveloped, that if can be built on could be annexed into the city. The point is that SF is boxed in on 3 sides by water and it is boxed in on the south by other cities. LA still has land (if it can be built on) in both the city limits and right next to it. LA doesn't need to grow up (height) in order to still grow, as much as SF does. Of course, I'm glad they are, but they just don't have to so much. SF, on the other hand, must grow upwards to keep growing, earthquakes be damned.
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  #3899  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2013, 6:03 PM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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One last thing I wanted to mention, okay, really two. First, did anyone look at those SimCity 5 ads they had earlier? Used to love playing 1, 2 and 3000. Would love to get that game. Second, check out this link. It's for a solar roadway, that can light itself, defrost itself (for northern AZ) and provide electricity, among other things. This would be really cool and perfect for us here in AZ.
Here's the link: http://solarroadways.com/intro.shtml
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  #3900  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2013, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
LA and SF are two entirely different beasts. First off, you have to realize the reason that both probably didn't grow up (as in height), especially in SF, is because of the possibility of earthquakes. I say especially in SF because, as I said, they are two different beasts. SF is very densely packed. There are 17,179.2 people per square mile in SF (still not NYC with 27,012.5 people per square mile - with 69,771 per square mile in Manhattan alone), while LA has 8,092 per square mile - less than half. This density is surely lowered by the fact that there is a mountain range that goes right through LA and there is land in the city limits that is not built on. The flip side to that, though, is that there is more land, if they can build on it, in LA and plenty right outside LA (to the north and west) that is undeveloped, that if can be built on could be annexed into the city. The point is that SF is boxed in on 3 sides by water and it is boxed in on the south by other cities. LA still has land (if it can be built on) in both the city limits and right next to it. LA doesn't need to grow up (height) in order to still grow, as much as SF does. Of course, I'm glad they are, but they just don't have to so much. SF, on the other hand, must grow upwards to keep growing, earthquakes be damned.
Makes sense. I think Tucson is boxed in itself. It's probably only a matter of (short) time before more 20+ floor buildings gets built downtown. I think there's a demand for new good quality temp housing in Tucson since Tucson is filled with crappy apts. I've read those new student housing at 22nd st/Park Ave. are fully leased already. The District at 4th ave. was fully leased way before it was even finished.

It would be neat add those solar roadway all over AZ especially in Tucson when it's always freak'in dark. Solar panels are getting cheaper too with more energy packed in. I've read Toyota adding a solar roof to power a car's A/C and even help recharged an electric vehicle...google 'toyota solar roof' .
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