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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 12:40 PM
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I think others have pointed out already that English culture for some reason highly values having your own independent abode and little domain that you can be the master of. A communal garden won't do.

(That trait is centuries old and has spilled over to the colonies. Lots of Canadians and Americans "have to own", even when it makes little financial sense. Contrast that with Germans, who are fine with renting.)
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 1:06 PM
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Those were a tradition in the UK for decades, communal gardens known as allotments that were distributed to mostly working class terraces who often only had a paved yard otherwise. Since the 80s though a lot of them went fallow as people stopped using them and many were sold off to developers, but a resurgence at the turn of the Millennium saw a massive demand spike -the population was climbing again with many people living now in apartments with shared gardens. The waiting list for an allotment is now up to 40 years, with up to 637 people applying for any one lot. One of the main opponents to the Olympic Stadium was an allotment carved out of the industrial decay, whose land was treated like gold.
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  #43  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 1:08 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I think others have pointed out already that English culture for some reason highly values having your own independent abode and little domain that you can be the master of. A communal garden won't do.
The Germanic gardens/huts are leased, but they can be passed down. They're essentially "owned". The leases are subsidized so the fees are nominal.

These are individually leased lots/huts; no one can enter your land, but they aren't house-adjacent, obviously.

But yeah, it's probably true that Britain's tradition of SFH and homeownership made such an arrangement unlikely. Germanic cities are much more apartment and renter-oriented, and the culture is more communitarian.
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 1:16 PM
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Development in the suburbs usually takes place on ex-industrial land, but there are several options.


In a neighbourhood like this (Acton) -good transport links but carpeted with historic housing and private gardens:



...they use this railway verge:




or the local crappy industrial estate that every suburb has




or you guessed it -the local allotments (remember the residents don't own that land, it's only ever allocated to them by the council).



or on existing smalltown businesses:




The key is usually building near the local high street/ town centre, where less people (read: nimbys) live.
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  #45  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 1:31 PM
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Another example - Wembley is the heart of suburbia. It's centre has traditionally been a crappy 20th Century industrial estate


https://www.adventureballoons.co.uk/...um24thJune.jpg

which was once a stunning dreamland for the Anglo-French Exhibition


https://i.dailymail.co.uk


Nowadays it's being entirely rebuilt


www.stadiumdesignsummit.com



These sites are known as 'brownfield' and have been suppying the demand for the past 20 years in strategy. The other great mine for land are the postwar housing estates, whose tower-in-the-park ideas have yielded plenty of new plots. These are usually appropriated under the guise of rehabilitation and regeneration, and the residents paid off and bussed out. The problem is that there are usually a handful of residents who refuse every offer, and it can take decades.


www.london-se1.co.uk


Last edited by muppet; Feb 1, 2021 at 1:55 PM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Just allow absurd amounts of micro units and lax the occupancy rules. Make it profitable to build by allowing aggressive zoning, cut community input and power when it comes to unit counts or feedback in general... and give developers some benefits versus hostility for building. Also might help to have city officials that don't make it harder to build... that would help.

And not just in London, but in other places. A lot of the supply issue is self induced. Its like hey... we need supply... but before you go out and build it, we are going to make it harder for you to build and limit the potential, because we are masochists that deprive pleasure from limiting supply and causing further issues and than talking about it, and continuing the cycle.
BAN micro units. People should not living in apartments the size of jail cells.
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  #47  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Well thats odd. Usually in the U.S, the community and politics of "X" city/regulation/silly caps are the issue... but that is indeed odd.

Yeah hopefully the mayor can get his way.
You think developers dont sit on land in the us? EVERY downtown parking lot is a case of that happening.
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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by l3g0 View Post
BAN micro units. People should not living in apartments the size of jail cells.
And some sort of Government agency is the one who should say what is an appropriate size of an apartment? Sounds like a horrible idea. Why ban when you can let the free market decide?
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 3:04 PM
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Yeah, I don't understand the opposition to micro-units. The right is like "that looks like a dystopian hellhole; everyone needs to live in a McMansion on 10 acres" and the left is like "how dare working class people live in such small quarters; we need subsidized housing with more space than the market rate housing".

I lived in something that would qualify as a micro-unit, for years, and my quality of life was very high. Lots of people would trade space for location and amenities.
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2021, 3:13 PM
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The availability of quality affordable housing in London is undoubtedly the biggest threat facing the city, but it can also be the catalyst for an unprecedented economic boom. The Mayor of London produces a fairly comprehensive annual report (here: https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defa...ondon_2020.pdf) into the state of housing in London. It underlines a lot of the key issues; namely supply doesn’t meet demand. Some select screenshots from the report:






There is no simple single solution to this multi-faceted issue that has built up over the past 30+ years. Some of these solutions require at least a decade to have an impact (e.g. training/sourcing more bricklayers, building concrete plants, etc…). There needs to be:
- A root-to-branch review of how and where homes are built (including planning, raw materials, resources, etc…)
- An increased focus on providing the necessary infrastructure and amenities to avoid increasing the burden on existing facilities
- Reform of the property taxation system
- Break-up of the housing developer oligopoly
- Increased focus of Transport for London to become a developer (e.g. Hong Kong’s MTR), etc…

Pressure can also be relieved by better utilisation of existing stock:
- Some 175,000 family homes in London are occupied by retirees due to an extensive shortfall in retirement properties
- 44% of family homes are under-occupied whilst one-bedroom homes are overcrowded
- A further 71,670 homes are empty


Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
The problem here is that English people all want to live in houses, rather than apartments like most Europeans, and so providing enough housing units affordably means low quality construction and covering every square inch of open space with grotesque cul-de-sacs. There is a lot of London that isn’t historic housing and could and should be demolished to make way for 6-8 story apartments built up to the lot line (including most of the areas where these 1930s semi-detached houses were built).
There is certainly a reluctance or hesitation to replicate the family-focused apartments that proliferate across the continent. Some of it is undoubtedly psychological, i.e. a home is where you have your own front-door (irrelevant of whether it is a terrace, semi or detached); as the saying goes, ”an Englishman’s home is his castle”. That thinking has percolated through the demand-side, legal apparatus, planning system and property finance sector. Flats are viewed as a launch-pad for home ownership, those just out of university, young couples and those on lower economic profiles.

Before Grenfell, I’d say the rather negative view on flats was evolving (choice and availability), but the scandal around deficient construction, not just of flammable cladding, but insufficient internal firewalls, etc… has not done the dwelling type any favours.


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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
Not to mention that the rings of low-density sprawl hemming in so many cities are part of the reason they're expensive. If London could go ahead and build actual city on the edge of the actual city, sure that would help--it puts housing where people want to live. But you can built whatever you want at the outer edge of the sprawl and it's not going to make things better for people who want to live in the city.
Building on the Green Belt to create a new urban ring around Outer London creates its own problems, most notably the vast increase in infrastructure required to move people around. It can’t be overstated just how important the Green Belt is burnt into the national consciousness; the level of opposition to building on this area would be simply unimaginable.

The only exception that to building on Green Belt or redeveloping Outer London plots that could work is a focus on existing under-utilised or enhanced infrastructure. Crews Hill station on the northern periphery of the London Borough of Enfield comes to mind; see below image. It is sits in the Green Belt, but not much is there except for gardening centres and fields. If considerate development was focused around the station, then you would get a win-win situation.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Commentariat View Post
This picture illustrates everything wrong with housing in the UK - tiny houses with wasted backyards, and the only possible densification opportunities are to cram more people in to what is already there or illegally rent out a shed. It’s total madness. Small developers should be able to buy a few adjoining properties, knock them over and build low rise apartments. But that form of infill is basically banned across the UK.
Those rear gardens are a bit of an anomaly for the dwelling stock in the picture and not really typical of the majority of semi-detached dwellings which appear to be the focus of the conver.

look to be on the upper end of the scale and/or outer reaches of London, so redeveloping them might not bring sustainable gains.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I wonder why, back in the 19th century, the UK didn't develop the model of Schrebergärten, which are those little garden colonies with sheds you see on the fringe of cities in Germanic (and I think Nordic?) Europe.

When Germany was urbanizing/industrializing in the 19th century, the new apartment dwellers bought mini-plots of land in larger fringe community gardens, which ended up being lifesavers during WW2, as urbanites could still grow their own food. And the sheds serve as mini-getaways, like man caves or she-sheds in the U.S.
Allotments in the UK date back some 300-years, and like Germany during WW2 helped feed the population. There are some 36,000 sites in London, but they are in high demand with waiting lists in the tens of thousands.
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 1:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yeah, I don't understand the opposition to micro-units. The right is like "that looks like a dystopian hellhole; everyone needs to live in a McMansion on 10 acres" and the left is like "how dare working class people live in such small quarters; we need subsidized housing with more space than the market rate housing".

I lived in something that would qualify as a micro-unit, for years, and my quality of life was very high. Lots of people would trade space for location and amenities.
Micro units are perfectly fine for transient purposes: students, young professionals. They should be very abundant, and therefore cheap.
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 1:07 AM
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My worry on micro units is they will start pricing them like they are luxury condos.

And of course they will.
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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 1:07 AM
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I read a BBC Brasil article this morning stating over 1 million foreigners, mostly European, had lived Britain last year and around 700,000 from London.

If most of them don’t come back, how that will impact London’s insane prices?
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  #54  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 3:33 AM
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Originally Posted by l3g0 View Post
My worry on micro units is they will start pricing them like they are luxury condos.

And of course they will.

Probably. In Toronto, as unit sizes have declined, so too have prices risen. Now we can't necessarily say to what extent they're related based on those two data points alone, but there is an important side effect: the price of everything that isn't micro goes up because they become scarcer relative to their share of the housing supply.

I don't think unit size has much of an inherent effect on housing costs anyway. The lowest-cost housing is determined by what the highest amount people are willing & able to pay for it is. This is tied more to local wages and vacancy rates than anything. Of course, the smallest units will generally be the cheapest, but whether those are averaging 300 sqft or 600 sqft isn't going to make much of a difference.
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  #55  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 5:44 AM
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Originally Posted by l3g0 View Post
BAN micro units. People should not living in apartments the size of jail cells.
They should live on the streets if they can't afford a home that's big enough for you!
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  #56  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 5:46 AM
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Originally Posted by l3g0 View Post
My worry on micro units is they will start pricing them like they are luxury condos.

And of course they will.
...that's why it's important to have enough of them. Prices don't rise unless there's a scarcity problem.
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  #57  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 5:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Probably. In Toronto, as unit sizes have declined, so too have prices risen. Now we can't necessarily say to what extent they're related based on those two data points alone, but there is an important side effect: the price of everything that isn't micro goes up because they become scarcer relative to their share of the housing supply.

I don't think unit size has much of an inherent effect on housing costs anyway. The lowest-cost housing is determined by what the highest amount people are willing & able to pay for it is. This is tied more to local wages and vacancy rates than anything. Of course, the smallest units will generally be the cheapest, but whether those are averaging 300 sqft or 600 sqft isn't going to make much of a difference.
Prices are influenced by development cost. If rents rise above an equilibrium, developers will rush to fill the demand. This equilibrium can be much lower for small units.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 7:26 AM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Nowadays it's being entirely rebuilt


www.stadiumdesignsummit.com

Looks like some generic North American style development, the kind of project you'd see in a Canadian development thread or something. It's a pity.
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 3:08 PM
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Prices are influenced by development cost. If rents rise above an equilibrium, developers will rush to fill the demand. This equilibrium can be much lower for small units.

In expensive markets, unit costs are largely dictated by land costs. If developers can increase their profits by cramming more small units into their buildings, the cost of land zoned for such uses will rise accordingly.

For the record, I'm not necessarily anti-micro unit. They have their place, and a healthy housing market should have a diverse range of unit types: everything from micro units to suburban SFH. The key is that the supply matches the real demand of the end users. Unfortunately, high-cost markets tend to be distorted by investors, and doesn't necessarily reflect "true" demand - housing is not a perfect free market. And given carte blanche to do as they please, developers will tend to build more of the small, unliveable units because they're easy to offload to investors (who then end up using them for AirBnb and not the local housing supply).

Micro units are good in limited quantity, as in that case they do provide a lower-cost alternative (because larger units are still readily available); or as a solution for subsidized housing for the homeless. But in an imperfect market, regulation is needed.
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  #60  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 3:21 PM
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You could have rising housing prices in tandem with rising share of micro-units due to changes to geographic distribution of units. The micro-units will tend to be in more central, high-cost areas, so one would certainly expect higher prices psf. But that doesn't mean that micro units aren't increasing overall affordability.
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