What places, structures or geographic features should be (inter)nationally famous?

[JManc]

Some of you obviously didn't pay attention to what I wrote instead went off on a tangent. I said if the building were *situated* the same way as it is in houston in a more prominent city, it probably would be more well known. It's in a suburban setting dwarfing it's neighbors.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by StethJeff

People need to get out more and see what exists in the rest of the world. A quick jaunt through NYC, Istanbul, London, Shanghai, and Bangkok would do a lot of forumers good. Most of the stuff that these homers are pushing are in no way unique outside of the counties that surround them. Your random ethnic temple in a random sunbelt city is an imitation of something older, nicer, and bigger somewhere else. Your suburban office tower goes unnoticed in Pudong. It's the reality of the situation. Don't get defensive about it.

Not said in the most tactful way, but I agree completely if you replace "sunbelt city" with "American or Canadian" city. The Sunbelt doesn't have a monopoly on "average" or "nice but not All-World status." That is something every American and Canadian city not named New York produces in spades - not to imply that NYC too isn't filled with "average", because it is.

Were Williams Tower in SF or NYC, it wouldn't matter - cities in China none of us can even pronounce properly shit out similar towers every other day. We have built very few monuments or civic / religious buildings which can fairly even compare to European and Asian originals with in many cases a thousand years' worth of historical events attached to them.

America and Canada have a wealth of natural wonders which DO stack up well against the rest of the world's best. This is an area to expound on and market even. But built form stuff? Not so much outside of massive public works projects like the Hoover Dam, and even these have all been surpassed by much bigger, more ambitious versions in Asia like the Three Gorges Dam.

I'd say places like Bannf or Bryce Canyon or Zion National Park should be more famous internationally. There's nothing like Zion in all of Asia or Europe. I saw at least six or seven iterations of Williams Tower in just Shanghai and Shenzhen last month.

[AviationGuy]

Well said, Shawn.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I do agree with the Houston posters a little. If the TransAmerica building were in Houston, you all would saying it's ugly and shouldn't be well known.

Meanwhile, in reality, Transamerica has mostly drawn unflattering comments (including deleted posts) which revolve around how it shouldn't be as well known as it is--despite not being in Houston.

I really don't understand why Houston forumers are being such homers in this thread.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Not said in the most tactful way, but I agree completely if you replace "sunbelt city" with "American or Canadian" city. The Sunbelt doesn't have a monopoly on "average" or "nice but not All-World status." That is something every American and Canadian city not named New York produces in spades - not to imply that NYC too isn't filled with "average", because it is.

Were Williams Tower in SF or NYC, it wouldn't matter - cities in China none of us can even pronounce properly shit out similar towers every other day. We have built very few monuments or civic / religious buildings which can fairly even compare to European and Asian originals with in many cases a thousand years' worth of historical events attached to them.

America and Canada have a wealth of natural wonders which DO stack up well against the rest of the world's best. This is an area to expound on and market even. But built form stuff? Not so much outside of massive public works projects like the Hoover Dam, and even these have all been surpassed by much bigger, more ambitious versions in Asia like the Three Gorges Dam.

I'd say places like Bannf or Bryce Canyon or Zion National Park should be more famous internationally. There's nothing like Zion in all of Asia or Europe. I saw at least six or seven iterations of Williams Tower in just Shanghai and Shenzhen last month.

This.

Thank you, Shawn.

[StethJeff]

Originally Posted by fflint

Meanwhile, in reality, Transamerica has mostly drawn unflattering comments (including deleted posts) which revolve around how it shouldn't be as well known as it is--despite not being in Houston.

I really don't understand why Houston forumers are being such homers in this thread.

Because everyone, including Houston, has to get a participation trophy in a "should be internationally famous" discussion.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by StethJeff

Because everyone, including Houston, has to get a participation trophy in a "should be internationally famous" discussion.

What a load of pure crap.

It's because any non-coastal or preferred older city is an acceptable and popular target here to be continually shit on, ridiculed and minimalized in every possible way by smug, arrogant jerks from places that deem themselves somehow above them.

MANY people are becoming sick of it. And your recent posts are a perfect example of what is wrong here.

It's ruining this particular section of the forum, in my opinion.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Not said in the most tactful way, but I agree completely if you replace "sunbelt city" with "American or Canadian" city. The Sunbelt doesn't have a monopoly on "average" or "nice but not All-World status." That is something every American and Canadian city not named New York produces in spades - not to imply that NYC too isn't filled with "average", because it is.

Were Williams Tower in SF or NYC, it wouldn't matter - cities in China none of us can even pronounce properly shit out similar towers every other day. We have built very few monuments or civic / religious buildings which can fairly even compare to European and Asian originals with in many cases a thousand years' worth of historical events attached to them.

America and Canada have a wealth of natural wonders which DO stack up well against the rest of the world's best. This is an area to expound on and market even. But built form stuff? Not so much outside of massive public works projects like the Hoover Dam, and even these have all been surpassed by much bigger, more ambitious versions in Asia like the Three Gorges Dam.

I'd say places like Bannf or Bryce Canyon or Zion National Park should be more famous internationally. There's nothing like Zion in all of Asia or Europe. I saw at least six or seven iterations of Williams Tower in just Shanghai and Shenzhen last month.

I think people are arguing about architectural merit alone? Personally, there are plenty of older and grander European cathedrals than the Tampere Cathedral, but I prefer it to say Bath Abbey due to its artistic merit.

Williams is a bit dubious but that pomo stuff has been copied all over the world. It's the forefather of the towers in Shenzen.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Bingo!

The anti-Sunbelt, anti-Southern bias exhibited freely by many will probably never change.

It probably won't, given that this is largely a forum about urbanism and urban issues.

If there were no bias, there would be no point to SSP, essentially, unless the site were a strict highrise site, ignoring anything related to urban context.

[AviationGuy]

The complaints here are not so much that there's disagreement on the merits. The problem is a few members (usually the same ones) who usually include a condescending remark toward any structure or city they don't approve of. And if someone complains, they become a "homer", when in reality the attempt is to bring back a decent discussion and debate about architecture.

There's still been some good stuff in this thread. It's a good topic.

[The Chemist]

Out of all the bridges that have been built in China over the last decade or so, three really stand out to me:

1. Sidu River Bridge, G50 Expressway - the world's highest bridge

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_Bridge-1.jpg

2. Xihoumen Bridge, G92(11) Ningbo-Zhoushan expressway - the world's second longest suspension bridge

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_Zhoushan.jpg

3. Dashengguan Railway Bridge - Nanjing; Carries 4 tracks of HSR and 2 tracks of Nanjing's metro system across the Yangtze River

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-biGj9tkUr4...s1600/DB+2.JPG

[lzppjb]

People get their feelings hurt really easily here.

I'm a Texan and I'm far from anti-South, but I also don't care if someone from either coast discounts Southern cities and/or buildings. That's obviously due in part to my severe Texas ego.

[ThePhun1]

The Xihoumen Bridge resembles the Golden Gate Bridge in some ways. The Sidu River Bridge though is my fave of those three.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Shawn

We have built very few monuments or civic / religious buildings which can fairly even compare to European and Asian originals with in many cases a thousand years' worth of historical events attached to them.

America and Canada have a wealth of natural wonders which DO stack up well against the rest of the world's best. This is an area to expound on and market even. But built form stuff? Not so much outside of massive public works projects like the Hoover Dam, and even these have all been surpassed by much bigger, more ambitious versions in Asia like the Three Gorges Dam.

I'd say places like Bannf or Bryce Canyon or Zion National Park should be more famous internationally. There's nothing like Zion in all of Asia or Europe. I saw at least six or seven iterations of Williams Tower in just Shanghai and Shenzhen last month.

i don't agree, we have very interesting and ancient civic/religious monuments too, they just weren't built by europeans, so they do not get the publicity or often the care they deserve.

and with that may i present...

http://moundbuilder.blogspot.com/201...o-ans-its.html

and...

http://moundbuilder.blogspot.com/201...-henge-is.html


^ and that is just ohio. of course there are also unique civic structures too, like say the woolworth bldg or mt. rushmore. i known what you meant, but really it's just like america and canada too to not give ourselves enough credit sometimes, isnt it?

[dc_denizen]

I don't know if antiquity has much to do with it either. With the exception of some baroque and gothic churches and palaces, most of London and Paris was built up in the last 150 years. The most ornate buildings were often 19th-century constructions, when imperialism, centralization and modernization drove these capitals' prosperity and allowed for spending lots of money on this stuff.

The US was in a different place developmentally then, fewer dollars went into grandiose structures. Thus you have a character from an Edith Wharton novel complaining that 1870s New York is too flat (basically, a sea of brownstones punctuated by churches!)

[ThePhun1]

^

But there's still the advantage of them having structures that are more than a few centuries old at the most. Other than a few landmarks created by the Native populations, such as the Aztec pyramids, the majority of the New World is devoid of that, which has its plusses and minuses.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by lzppjb

People get their feelings hurt really easily here.

I'm a Texan and I'm far from anti-South, but I also don't care if someone from either coast discounts Southern cities and/or buildings. That's obviously due in part to my severe Texas ego.

It has nothing to do with Southern cities. New Orleans is one of the most praised cities on SSP, and rightly so.

There is clearly a bias on SSP against sprawly type cities, and I think that's in line with the general theme of SSP, which is usually centered around urbanism.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

What a load of pure crap.

It's because any non-coastal or preferred older city is an acceptable and popular target here to be continually shit on, ridiculed and minimalized in every possible way by smug, arrogant jerks from places that deem themselves somehow above them.

MANY people are becoming sick of it. And your recent posts are a perfect example of what is wrong here.

It's ruining this particular section of the forum, in my opinion.

I really do empathize with aggrieved Sun Belt residents who feel like their cities are picked on, as silly as that sounds. Their strengths are often minimized to the point where a foreigner reading these boards could be forgiven for believing they have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I feel this way especially about Atlanta, which has been one of the few cities where black Americans have been able to really flourish post industrialization (manifested in the high volume of the city's cultural output, particularly music), something for which it rarely gets any credit around here.

But because positives aren't mentioned alongside the negatives doesn't mean that the negatives cease being true, and perceiving every critique to mask an anti-Sun Belt agenda distracts from/stifles an honest discussion about very real problems, often problems disproportionately affecting Sun Belt cities.

The funny thing is, I personally wasn't even planning on contributing to this thread, but was so bowled over by the praise heaped upon what I consider to be a very mediocre (good at best) work of architecture not even close to satisfying the OP's question that I would have felt remiss not to comment. If you notice, I (and several others) even provided or referred to alternative local examples that (I believe) do. Disagree? Engage the argument, not in name-calling.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I do agree with the Houston posters a little. If the TransAmerica building were in Houston, you all would saying it's ugly and shouldn't be well known.

Originally Posted by mhays

Transamerica isn't great looking. It's famous because it's the #2 symbol of an iconic city and it's unusual-looking enough to be memorable, all of which is supported by a ton of attention over a period of decades.

Originally Posted by fflint

Meanwhile, in reality, Transamerica has mostly drawn unflattering comments (including deleted posts) which revolve around how it shouldn't be as well known as it is--despite not being in Houston.

Also, for the record, I think the Transamerica Pyramid is beautiful. The architect, William Pereira, played with form in a way Philip Johnson didn't--not just in this case but throughout their careers. Obviously, most people in this thread who have expressed their opinions about it don't like or even appreciate the results, but, like mhays said, they're often "unusual-looking enough to be memorable," and the memorability of a building is often an important factor in its fame.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It has nothing to do with Southern cities. New Orleans is one of the most praised cities on SSP, and rightly so.

There is clearly a bias on SSP against sprawly type cities, and I think that's in line with the general theme of SSP, which is usually centered around urbanism.

Not pointing you out specifically but...

This attitude underlies the lack of maturity that continues to plague this forum year after year and has driven a lot of people away. Chiefly people from these "sprawly" cities leaving behind a forum full of opinionated assholes from places like New York, Chicago, LA and wherever. Eventually it will wind up a big circle jerk discussing who city is the most walk-able or has the biggest metropolitan economy. SSP is supposed to be a community that celebrates cities, all kinds of cities as well as their skyscrapers. Urbanism comes in all forms and varieties, not a limited subset predefined by a few adolescent 30-somethings hoping to make themselves feel better.

The praise for New Orleans further highlights my point. Sure, it looks pretty on the surface but most of that density is in the well maintained expensive touristy areas (French Quarter...tiny fraction of total area) while rest of the city laid it more like a traditional southern city; row after row of peer and beam bungalows with large swathes of poverty. It's New Orleans after-all. Most of New Orleans' residents are not well-to-do urbanists enjoying the urbanity and history of their city but treading water financially and no where near the dense areas.