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  #301  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
These coastal landscapes of estuaries and inlets are extremely difficult to retrofit rail, IMO. It's not just a problem in Mobile or Pensacola but also Charleston, Wilmington, tidewater Virginia, and to a lesser extent Jacksonville and Savannah. Historically the rail connections led from coastal port cities inland to their hinterlands; they were not built to link coastal cities with each other. Still today the best way to serve these cities is with terminal stations rather than through-stations.
Ever wondered why US Highway 1 runs so far inland in Virginia, North and South Carolina? Believe it or not, it has been routed that way since the 1920s when the US Highway routing system was established. Well, you hit the reason right on the bullseye, Model T Fords were not suited to run well on dirt roads in swamps.
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  #302  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 4:51 PM
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^There is an almost-beachfront railroad between New Orleans and Pascagoula, a distance of about 100 miles. This route travels through Gulfport and Biloxi and has a number of 1+ mile bridges across bays.

Mobile Bay is the only big harbor between New Orleans and Tampa, which is why it has tunnels and everything east has causeways that aren't high enough for freighters, cruise ships, and oil rigs.

For fun you can see how a railroad could be built between Pensacola and Panama City entirely on the barrier islands. It would require a 3-mile causeway in Pensacola and 1-mile causeway at the eastern end to connect to an existing railroad on the mainland in Panama City. The bridges between the various barrier islands wouldn't have to be very big.

In short, it would take about 150~ miles of new railroad to build a comprehensive east-west link across the Gulf Coast between Mobile and Tallahassee. The afore-mentioned Mobile Bay crossing would be, by far, the biggest cost and engineering hurdle.
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  #303  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
In short, it would take about 150~ miles of new railroad to build a comprehensive east-west link across the Gulf Coast between Mobile and Tallahassee. The afore-mentioned Mobile Bay crossing would be, by far, the biggest cost and engineering hurdle.
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  #304  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 2:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
^There is an almost-beachfront railroad between New Orleans and Pascagoula, a distance of about 100 miles. This route travels through Gulfport and Biloxi and has a number of 1+ mile bridges across bays.

Mobile Bay is the only big harbor between New Orleans and Tampa, which is why it has tunnels and everything east has causeways that aren't high enough for freighters, cruise ships, and oil rigs.

For fun you can see how a railroad could be built between Pensacola and Panama City entirely on the barrier islands. It would require a 3-mile causeway in Pensacola and 1-mile causeway at the eastern end to connect to an existing railroad on the mainland in Panama City. The bridges between the various barrier islands wouldn't have to be very big.

In short, it would take about 150~ miles of new railroad to build a comprehensive east-west link across the Gulf Coast between Mobile and Tallahassee. The afore-mentioned Mobile Bay crossing would be, by far, the biggest cost and engineering hurdle.
Huh? Sure you could build the bridges, but the barrier islands are fully built up, except where they are protected as military or park land. Where would you put a new ROW?
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  #305  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 3:50 PM
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Just daydreaming here, and getting back to the talk about the I-10 Wallace tunnel being used for rail. It was stated that the 5-6% grade at its nadir would prevent a diesel hauled loco from being able to pull a consist from a dead stop at a Mobile south of downtown station. Well... and hear me out... I'm curious if it would be feasible to string about 2 miles worth of OCS and shunt Amtrak long distance trains through the tunnel using a secondhand electric yard switcher or even a retired HHP-3 or something similar picked up for cheap to serve this singular duty. I can see such a situation adding at most 10 minutes to the trip time through Mobile. Thoughts?
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  #306  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 4:06 PM
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The FY21 appropriations law has $100M in grant funding available for intermodal rail connections to former military airports, which are also located within 10 miles of a maritime port. Mobile, AL, is one of the few airports which qualify.

If Mobile wins one of these grants, perhaps the track improvements could also be used to improve passenger rail in this section.

"The Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 (Pub. L. 116-260, December 27, 2020) (“FY 2021 Appropriations Act”) appropriated $100 million to expand intermodal and multimodal freight and cargo transportation infrastructure, including airport development under chapter 471 of title 49, United States Code. The Transportation Demonstration Program is listed under Assistance Listing 20.936. See Section C of the program NOFO for a description of the limited eligibility under this program.

The safe and efficient movement of freight is vital to the Nation’s economic growth and to the creation of well-paying jobs for millions of Americans. The national freight system comprises physical infrastructure or facilities, such as ports, waterways, airports, railroads, pipelines, roadways, and warehouses, as well as diverse carriers, shippers, and suppliers that use this infrastructure to transport goods. Intermodal or multimodal freight, which refer to a cargo that transfers from one transportation mode to at least one other transportation mode as the shipment moves from origin to destination, are an integral component of the freight system. The goal of the Transportation Demonstration Program is to fund projects that expand intermodal and multimodal freight and cargo transportation infrastructure. Projects funded under this program may augment existing intermodal and multimodal assets in close proximity with capital investments that strengthen the infrastructure connections. Funding may be used to eliminate artificial barriers and fill gaps that exist within current grant programs or to streamline connections between aviation, maritime, rail, and highway infrastructure and generate efficiencies in inventory and supply chain management.

Due to the prescriptive project eligibility criteria in the FY 2021 Appropriations Act, the Department expects that eligibility under the program will be limited to very few applicants. Potential applicants should carefully review the eligibility criteria in Section C of the NOFO to assess whether the applicant is an eligible applicant and the project meets the statutory requirements."

https://www.grants.gov/web/grants/se...monstration%20
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  #307  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 4:10 PM
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I don't know if this article has been posted.

‘A joy ride for the affluent’: Debate renewed in Mobile over Amtrak’s return

Feb. 18, 2021
By John Sharp

"Amtrak’s return to Mobile continues to spark hot political debate among the city’s power brokers one year after a project connecting the Port City to New Orleans was given the go-ahead by city leaders.

The renewed debate occurred on Wednesday and focused on the spending of additional city money to study the location of a new train station. It pitted Councilman Joel Daves, the sole “No” vote last February on whether to support the Amtrak Gulf Coast service with a $3 million commitment, against Councilman Fred Richardson, a candidate for mayor this year who is advocating for Amtrak’s return to Mobile for the first time since 2005..."

https://www.al.com/news/2021/02/a-jo...ks-return.html
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  #308  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2021, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Just daydreaming here, and getting back to the talk about the I-10 Wallace tunnel being used for rail. It was stated that the 5-6% grade at its nadir would prevent a diesel hauled loco from being able to pull a consist from a dead stop at a Mobile south of downtown station. Well... and hear me out... I'm curious if it would be feasible to string about 2 miles worth of OCS and shunt Amtrak long distance trains through the tunnel using a secondhand electric yard switcher or even a retired HHP-3 or something similar picked up for cheap to serve this singular duty. I can see such a situation adding at most 10 minutes to the trip time through Mobile. Thoughts?
Electric motors have more torque than diesel but it's better to think about it in terms of powered axles (loco-hauled train has few, MU has many). Plus the long-distance rolling stock that Amtrak uses is heavy in the extreme, which makes the challenge of steep grades even harder.

Looking at the Wiki page for steep railways, it looks like most are operated as branch lines using specialized equipment, either MUs, trams, or very short/lightweight loco-hauled consists, or exotic stuff like rack technology. I don't see anything comparable to the Wallace Tunnel on a diesel-operated mainline (there are a few abandoned ones, but they were abandoned for that reason).

Unfortunately I don't think OCS is a magic bullet here, nor is it realistic to run specialized equipment from coast-to-coast because of one tricky tunnel. It doesn't make much sense to talk about solutions because those vary widely based on what the service goal is. If building greenfield HSR, then it would be fairly easy to modify the Wallace Tunnel for that equipment, but the budget for such a project would also support a new tunnel that comes with fewer trade-offs. Regional service on par with California or the Midwest probably can't justify the expense of a new Mobile Bay crossing. Certainly a 3x/week Sunset Limited doesn't justify it.

If you wanted to spend a billion here, I'd probably keep the existing Bay rail crossing north of Mobile and then build a new greenfield line between Bay Minette and Pensacola. That area is extremely sparsely populated, so new rail construction should be fairly easy especially if no grade separations. I'd also build a Pensacola cutoff along I-10 which would shave 20-30 minutes off, at the expense of giving them a suburban station instead of a downtown one.
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Last edited by ardecila; Apr 14, 2021 at 3:48 PM.
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  #309  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 5:24 AM
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Pensacola is bigger than I expected. 500,000 residents puts it roughly on par with Chattanooga, and Georgia has been talking about building HSR between Atlanta and its Tennessee neighbor since the 1996 Olympics.
Mobile County plus Baldwin County (Eastern Short of Mobile Bay; the two combine to make the Mobile-Daphne-Fairhope CSA) combine for around 650,000. Mobile MSA sits at around 413,000.
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  #310  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 3:02 PM
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U.S. passenger railroad Amtrak asks Congress for $5.4 billion

By David Shepardson
Reuters
4/29/21


"U.S. passenger railroad Amtrak on Thursday asked Congress for $5.4 billion in the budget year starting Oct. 1 as it still grapples with the impact of COVID-19.

President Joe Biden, who plans to attend a 50th anniversary event on Friday for Amtrak in Philadelphia, has called for $80 billion in new spending on high-speed rail projects.

Amtrak asked for $3.88 billion for "base needs" and to address the impact of COVID-19 and $1.55 billion in additional U.S. funding needed to address Northeast Corridor infrastructure projects and begin advancing new corridor routes across the country..."

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-...ln-2021-04-29/
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  #311  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2021, 6:04 PM
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Amtrak Releases 15-Year Vision, Calls on Congress for $75B in Support

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger...5b-in-support/

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.....

- Amtrak has released a report detailing its 15-year vision to improve 25 existing routes, add 39 new routes, and bring service to more than 160 new communities, which CEO William J. Flynn submitted to Congress, along with a letter calling on legislators to consider the railroad’s top priorities to support that vision.

.....



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  #312  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2021, 1:05 AM
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sad that Ft. Myers area isn't included in the expansion plans
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  #313  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2021, 1:14 AM
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^ Maybe in the future if they are successful Brightline could take a shot at Tampa-Ft.Myers and/or Ft. Myers-Miami in the middle of I-75.
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  #314  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2021, 9:20 PM
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Maybe. My sense is that Brightline is heavily focused on tourism so Miami-Orlando is the most important corridor. Tampa is big enough and urban enough that a train makes sense.

Ft. Myers/SWFL is a vast sprawling noncity that is mostly retirees with relatively little tourism, and it's a longshot environmentally to build a rail line across the Everglades. (although you could build a line further north linking to the FEC mainline in West Palm Beach).
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  #315  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2021, 10:55 PM
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Maybe. My sense is that Brightline is heavily focused on tourism so Miami-Orlando is the most important corridor. Tampa is big enough and urban enough that a train makes sense.

Ft. Myers/SWFL is a vast sprawling noncity that is mostly retirees with relatively little tourism, and it's a longshot environmentally to build a rail line across the Everglades. (although you could build a line further north linking to the FEC mainline in West Palm Beach).
there's plenty of tourists at places like Siesta Key (though maybe largely people who got suckered into buying timeshares?) but that's already pretty close to Tampa.
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  #316  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2021, 12:27 AM
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There's already serious talk re: extending Brightline beyond Orlando Int'l to Disney Springs and Downtown Tampa. This will be huge for Tampa, and was needed yesterday.
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  #317  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2021, 2:23 AM
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... it's a longshot environmentally to build a rail line across the Everglades.
Was thinking the same. Im not sure geologically a fast rail line would be possible over the everglades.
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  #318  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2021, 4:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Ft. Myers/SWFL is a vast sprawling noncity that is mostly retirees with relatively little tourism, and it's a longshot environmentally to build a rail line across the Everglades. (although you could build a line further north linking to the FEC mainline in West Palm Beach).
Whether or not Brightline or Amtrak decides to start a new passenger train service to Ft. Meyers, somebody will have to finish an EIS whether it is private or public funding. The FTA "New Starts" funding program usually involves a three step EIS studies; (1) Feasibility, (2) Tier 1, and (3) Tier 2.

Much, if not all, of Amtrak's or Biden's new intercity trains "maps" have lines or services with EIS studies underway already or recently completed within the last decade. I do not think there is an EIS study underway for passenger trains to Ft. Meyers - hence why such a service is not on anyone's proposed maps.

The likelyhood there will be a train service to Ft. Meyers in the next 10 years is about the same for a blizzard dumping 24 inches of snow on Tampa, zero!
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  #319  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2021, 6:07 PM
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Connecting Salt Lake City to Las Vegas via St. George seems like a curious omission to me. It's a route that has significant ridership potential and would connect those two long east-west routes together nicely, albeit the terrain could be difficult/expensive for new rail in some areas. That said, I-15 has a large median for pretty much the entire route with the notable exception of the portion that runs through the Virgin River Gorge in Arizona.

A similar case could be made for a route from Salt Lake City to Spokane via Boise, I think.
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  #320  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 3:21 AM
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Connecting Salt Lake City to Las Vegas via St. George seems like a curious omission to me. It's a route that has significant ridership potential and would connect those two long east-west routes together nicely, albeit the terrain could be difficult/expensive for new rail in some areas. That said, I-15 has a large median for pretty much the entire route with the notable exception of the portion that runs through the Virgin River Gorge in Arizona.
Amtrak has tried that train before with many different train operation modes, it failed even Amtrak's easy standards.
Desert Wind history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Wind
"The original Desert Wind was a day train with Amfleet equipment. The northbound train left Los Angeles mid-day and arrived in Ogden the following morning to connect with the eastbound San Francisco Zephyr. The southbound departed Ogden in the middle of the night after the arrival of the westbound San Francisco Zephyr from Chicago and arrived in Los Angeles in late afternoon. The 811-mile (1,305 km) journey took eighteen hours.[5] Beginning in 1980, the Desert Wind exchanged a Chicago – Los Angeles through coach with the San Francisco Zephyr at Ogden; this service expanded in 1982 to include a sleeping car. After the renamed and rerouted California Zephyr began using the Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad main line in 1983, the Desert Wind began connecting with the Zephyr at Salt Lake City.
Later, the Desert Wind and the Seattle-bound Pioneer would operate together with the California Zephyr from Chicago to Salt Lake City, where the trains separated. This created a train of 16 Superliner cars running from Chicago to Utah, the longest that Amtrak had ever operated aside from the Auto Train. With Amtrak needing at least four locomotives to pull this massive train through the Rockies, the Pioneer began splitting off at Denver in 1991, while the Desert Wind continued to split from the Zephyr at Salt Lake City.The Desert Wind was discontinued on May 12, 1997, a victim of Amtrak's recurring budget cuts that also eliminated the Pioneer days earlier."

811 rail miles in 18 hours, that's averaging 45 mph between LA and Odgen.
18 hours is too long for a day train, which is probably why Amtrak added a sleeper car to the Desert Wind train. In fact, 811 rail miles is longer than the 750 rail miles for the train to be considered a long distance train, where Amtrak would not get any state subsidies to fund any loses.

All studies in the last 10 years along this corridor involve a day train between LA area and LV. I am not aware of any EIS studies for a train on tracks north of LV, hence why this train is not on Biden's or Amtrak's map.

I suggest waiting for either LA to LV trains to enter service, then try extending it later after completing the require EIS studies. The one mode Amtrak has not tried in the past is a true high speed train. Although I think 811 miles is too long for a HSR line to attract enough premium paying passengers to fund. Using the 3 hour rule, 811 rail miles / 3 hours = 270 mph average speeds, which is by far more than the maximum speeds present HSR technology supports. Doubling the elapse time to 6 hours would halve the average speed of the train to 135 mph, which is doable with HSR technology today. But at 6 hours elapse time, how many premium passengers will there be willing to pay HSR premium fares? I suggest not enough. I believe there are valid reasons why no one is planning a train between LV and SLC today.

Last edited by electricron; Jun 8, 2021 at 3:39 AM.
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