DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

What exactly? You voted for tax and debt authorization. The details were always subject to some tweaking by the Board of Directors - they are not legally required to go to the voters for that. Only for the money.

Yes so I'm nitpicking over what "tweaking" means I suppose.

And to answer Plansit yes it was always going to be suburban heavy... which makes the one thing that actually was going to be a jewel for downtown not become that all the worse.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Yes so I'm nitpicking over what "tweaking" means I suppose.

And to answer Plansit yes it was always going to be suburban heavy... which makes the one thing that actually was going to be a jewel for downtown not become that all the worse.

Ain't value engineering a bitch? It's incredibly frustrating to see the optimal proposal end up as the economic final product.

I would still call DUS a jewel for downtown (it's probably the best transit center that is currently being built in the United States outside of NYC), but instead of it being a diamond (with the corresponding price) were getting something like an opal.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Maybe we should put a halt to all infill until we can catch up?

Whatever you say, Mr. Danish.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Whatever you say, Mr. Danish.

Ouch, low blow.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Brainpathology, I get your frustrations, and I agree with them, except that getting the suburban commuters to come in on trains rather than in cars will indeed benefit downtown in many ways that matter to urbanists:

• Less parking is required, which means less land is needed for parking lots AND that new developments can be built with smaller parking garages, which makes new development more affordable (freeing developers to either build more, or build at higher quality).
• Less traffic on city streets means more street space can be re-purposed for other uses, including better sidewalks, transit lanes for local buses, and bikeways.
• Development of a transit culture among downtown workers will make it easier to politically sell all future transit investments regionwide, including potential inner city streetcars.
• Reduced pollution will improve air quality for everyone.

I would add one more point to this list that I think is the most important point. Having a massive transit system that branches out from a central point in downtown Denver like spokes on a wheel, increases downtown’s relevancy and ensures that it will remain the “center” of the metro area. It brings businesses, jobs and development to downtown Denver that might have otherwise ended up in the suburbs (or how about the new patent office that specifically cited the new transit system as a critical factor in determining that downtown would be the best place to locate).

Having a bigger and better downtown that is attracting jobs makes Denver a better place to live. Most of the TOD that this system will spawn will likely be in Denver, which will increase Denver’s density overall, making it an even better place to live.

And having a train that takes us to the Airport is nothing to scoff at.

[EngiNerd]

Also, what I can't understand, why are we forcing this issue of connecting Denver to Longmont, when we have already seen that very few riders actually commute from Longmont to Denver for work. Most stay in that immediate region, going to/from Boulder or to/from Broomfield/Interlocken. Why is this connection so critical that it has to be made at any cost? I don't understand why they can't just PNR from the 168th ave. station.

[bcp]

excellent point...I like how bunt position the regional vs. local buses...very true - boulder almost needs an expanded BRT rather than what we are trying to force (though it seems RTD is walking-back what will happen in NW...).

still - let's say that there is NO rail between Boulder and Denver - what becomes of the truncated line that goes to 72? Will Louisville go ape-shit?

- turn it NE and make it the new route of the North metro line?
- shuffle funding over to other unfinished lines and projects (eventual NE line, extensions down south, capital corridor, Colfax?)

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bcp

still - let's say that there is NO rail between Boulder and Denver - what becomes of the truncated line that goes to 72? Will Louisville go ape-shit?

I think nothing happens. Louisville will get BRT. And it was always going to be awkward extending that anyways, because the Eagle P3 concessionaire was handling that segment. Now, there's no need to transition it, even if it looks a bit odd on a map. It'll operate better being its own creature as part of the Eagle project.

It actually represents a pretty good opportunity for Westminster - they're the end of line, now. They've got huge properties to work with. Go forth, Westminster, and build us an end-of-line that doesn't suck - one worthy of having your name on the front of the train!

As for the BRT - I think it's kind of neat that a person could potentially, someday, have quality, dedicated ROW, train-like bus service that's a one seat ride from Union Station to downtown Boulder, downtown Louisville, downtown Lafayette, downtown Broomfield, etc. There's something to be said for having your name on the front of the bus as it leaves Union Station.

But I do think it is absolutely critical that we get the right-of-way right (both directions, peak and off-peak) - it needs to be as close to dedicated as possible so we can offer 3-minute headways with a straight face. And it absolutely must be separately branded and "cool looking." If all the northwest gets is a regular bus, they'd have every reason to go apeshit. I'm not a big one for Boulder entitlement, but Boulder (and the whole northwest sector) absolutely deserves something that looks and feels distinct. You can buy a lot of that for $1.4 billion with buses, so let's do it right.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Zmapper

electricion:

Two issues with your napkin analysis:
1. Not everyone is travelling at peak hours - I-25 and US 36 are congested from nearly 6 am to 10 pm at night, 7 days a week.

2. Not everyone is travelling in the US 36 corridor ONLY - some improvements made are in other, connecting routes. A customer travelling from Louisville to, say, Thornton can take an improved L bus, connect to the 120 bus and avoid the B buses altogether.

Running buses. On an already congested highway corridor isn't going to attract enough customers to make a difference, with stop and go traffic. Have any of the other corridors been studied and had environmental reviews?

In general, streetcars are workable up to a distance of. 5 miles from a city's central business districts, light rail ten to fifteen miles depending upon station spacing, and commuter rail beyond fifteen miles. Boulder is thirty miles and 55 minutes away by highway today. No one will be willing to stand and be tossed around on a bus for 55 minutes. Those reasons are just as valid now as it as before.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by electricron

Running buses. On an already congested highway corridor isn't going to attract enough customers to make a difference, with stop and go traffic. Have any of the other corridors been studied and had environmental reviews?

In general, streetcars are workable up to a distance of. 5 miles from a city's central business districts, light rail ten to fifteen miles depending upon station spacing, and commuter rail beyond fifteen miles. Boulder is thirty miles and 55 minutes away by highway today. No one will be willing to stand and be tossed around on a bus for 55 minutes. Those reasons are just as valid now as it as before.

Where are you getting this stuff?

(A) You can build a lane for the bus. Which, incidentally, is happening now.
And (B) you can run enough buses that not everybody has to stand.
And (C) the people getting on first - and riding the full distance - will be the ones sitting.
And (D) it is more like a 35 minute ride. Which is shorter than the light rail ride from Lincoln to downtown Denver today.

Yes, lots of corridors were considered. You are arguing this route isn't feasible for bus, when it is already one of the most successful bus corridors in the RTD system. Are you seeing something we're not? Have you ever ridden the B bus?

[Scottk]

Can we seriously please stop calling what Boulder is getting BRT???

It is not even close to BRT. I don't refer to the light rail as a "subway," so we shouldn't refer to the sub-par bus system Boulder is receiving as BRT. It's not.

Buses will still have to exit the highway at multiple stops. Buses will also be required to merge through several lanes of constantly gridlocked traffic... And, as far as I know, there are no plans to build at grade level bus stops (Can anyone confirm this?)

This means that loading and unloading the bus will still be a shitshow. Seriously. Has anyone been on the BV or BX during rush hour?? I ride it pretty frequently. The buses are usually stuffed full before they even reach table mesa. The BV/BX also runs CONSTANTLY late, because of the problems with loading and unloading. I am amazed whenever a bus actually makes it to market street station on time.

This will not be the BRT that people on the forum constantly advocate for... This will be budget, bullshit, RTD "BRT." I would love to see a south america / central america style BRT along the US 36 corridor. Unfortunately, RTD is not building anything close to that.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Where are you getting this stuff?
And (D) it is more like a 35 minute ride. Which is shorter than the light rail ride from Lincoln to downtown Denver today.

Um. No. You are wrong.

From the RTD trip planner, If I were to catch the 7:30 PM BV from Broadway & College in Boulder, the bus would not arrive to market street station until 8:28 PM. That is 58 minutes. And this statistic is assuming that there is no traffic on US 36....

I was also generous and didnt calculate the travel time from the Boulder transit center which would almost certainly add another 5 minutes to the time.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Scottk

Um. No. You are wrong.

From the RTD trip planner, If I were to catch the 7:30 PM BV from Broadway & College in Boulder, the bus would not arrive to market street station until 8:28 PM. That is 58 minutes. And this statistic is assuming that there is no traffic on US 36....

I was also generous and didnt calculate the travel time from the Boulder transit center which would almost certainly add another 5 minutes to the time.

If you don't know how to use a schedule and choose not to get on the express bus, that's your problem. It is 34 minutes from Table Mesa to Union Station on the BX per the RTD schedule. He was talking about traffic on US36- that's the correct measure. The time it takes to crawl to the stop of your choice inside Boulder doesn't count. Keeping it apples to apples, Table Mesa is still closer to where people want to be than east of 30th and Pearl would be.

You are absolutely correct that the current bus plan is not BRT. But that also assumed a duplicative train. If we are now doing something other than a train, there's no reason to assume the bus component can't be made better.

[Scottk]

the last BX of the day leaves boulder transit at 6:53 PM.

we were talking about leaving boulder at 730 (a time I chose simply because it was about 715 when I posted that)

So, there actually would not be a BX available to take into boulder.

Meaning,

58 minutes to Denver.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Scottk

the last BX of the day leaves boulder transit at 6:53 PM.

we were talking about leaving boulder at 730 (a time I chose simply because it was about 715 when I posted that)

So, there actually would not be a BX available to take into boulder.

Meaning,

58 minutes to Denver.

From the Boulder Transit Center. Which wasn't the discussion we were having. There's no traffic at 7pm, so that's clearly attributable to slow transit. Which again, we're working on improving.

I'm sure you're making some point. It's just not at all relevant to the discussion we were having.

If the bus can make it in mixed flow in 34 minutes now, during the day, it can obviously make it just as fast after we implement more improvements. It's not a 55 minute trip on an equal comparison.

If your point is that transit operations are sometimes slower off peak. Well, brilliant, thank you for the substantive contribution. We had never noticed that before.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

From the Boulder Transit Center. Which wasn't the discussion we were having. There's no traffic at 7pm, so that's clearly attributable to slow transit. Which again, we're working on improving.

I'm sure you're making some point. It's just not at all relevant to the discussion we were having.

If the bus can make it in mixed flow in 34 minutes now, during the day, it can obviously make it just as fast after we implement more improvements. It's not a 55 minute trip on an equal comparison.

If your point is that transit operations are sometimes slower off peak. Well, brilliant, thank you for the substantive contribution. We had never noticed that before.

But, the BV CAN NOT make it in 34 minutes, even from table mesa. It takes 45 minutes for the BV to make it from table mesa to market street station. That is assuming there is no traffic, and no hold ups loading and unloading the bus, which almost never happens

[bunt_q]

So what? We need to make it faster? Sure, but we're already working on that. It's still a very fast transit line considering the distance, which was the whole point. It's a bus line that works well today, and can only get better.

Hold up loading and unloading are a big area of potential gain too. Nobody should ever be fiddling with money, bike racks, luggage, or wheel chair lifts on a BRT. Platform ticketing, level boarding, doors open, doors close. No excuse for anything less if it's called "BRT."

[bunt_q]

Also, there's no reason to assume there won't also be express buses post-BRT. If anything, I'd expect more of them.

[EngiNerd]

So is there really talk of making the Denver to Boulder line a real BRT, and not the improved bus service that is currently in progress? That I had not heard, or is it part of the "exploring the alternatives" they are doing right now?

Just for comparison sake, the West line, from Jeffco Gov't Building to DUS is 39mins, and approx. 13 miles (god that route is slow). Lincoln Station to DUS on the E line is 41 minutes, and approx. 20 miles. So getting from Boulder (Table Mesa) to Denver on the BMX in 35 minutes, which is approx. 24 miles is very quick for a transit route, and one that will only get better if they have dedicated bus lanes the entire 24 miles, even if there is some weaving involved at McCaslin.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

S
Just for comparison sake, the West line, from Jeffco Gov't Building to DUS is 39mins, and approx. 13 miles (god that route is slow). Lincoln Station to DUS on the E line is 41 minutes, and approx. 20 miles. So getting from Boulder to Denver on the BX in 34 minutes, which is approx. 24 miles is very quick for a transit route.

The wonders of making only three stops along 24 miles. And, yes, the W Line is slow, the damn 35 MPH limit for the trains from Oak to Auraria West is a killer. If RTD would bump it up to 45 MPH you could shave 5-10 minutes off the route.