Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by josef

>_< I wish transit agencies could hire some user interface/user experience people to figure out how to really deliver the most-needed content easily to users.

http://trimet.org/

Originally Posted by josef

Also, how to correctly move users to the mobile version of their sites, if they actually have one (which they all should).

http://trimet.org/m/

[josef]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

http://trimet.org/

Very nice! I severely wish more agencies made nice sites like this.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

http://trimet.org/m/

Sadly, going to trimet.org on my Android phone didn't automatically direct me to m.trimet.org. -1 point.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

In any event, it seems that SEPTA run a number of bus routes out of a hub-and-spoke network out of the 69th Street Terminal. Hub-and-spoke systems do make sense, but why can't they have multiple hubs out of other regional transportation centers? They could have a series of bus lines feeding into all of the regional rail/subway/light rail lines. All in all, I see this as a way of boosting ridership as well as farebox revenue in both metro areas, as I agree that 36% is not very impressive...

I might be misunderstanding, but you are advocating for bus routes to be routed to a regional transportation center, where passengers will have to disembark and board a train/subway or another bus? That's not helpful at all. People want to get to where they need as quick as possible. Adding a transfer in the mix is not only time consuming but also adds cost.

I live in Manayunk and use the 27 and 9 bus to get downtown all the time. But to get to No Libs/Fishtown, I have to take the bus to the trolley....which is why I always drive. If the 27 and 9 buses terminated at the WTC and I had to take another bus to get downtown, that would be tremendously inconvenient and it would result in less ridership, not more.

[Nexis4Jersey]

You can't deny that Septa mangement isn't half at Fault , why was serviced axed on the Diesel system when many were fine with a transfer....Why end service on the Trolley system , then stonewall the City of Philly? Why end service on the Manayuk viaduct claiming it was going to collapse when infact that was far from true.... Why cut up some healthy bus lines? Septa likes to shrink as much as possible since getting into the biz and unlike neighboring systems were most of the network was preserved or fixed Septa has just let it rot. Some is Feds and Harrisburg , but most is Septa and most of the Rail community knows this. The Recent Silverliner V issues , delays and design show how stupid and backwards septa is... Look there trying to sell the City Branch and few other lines....

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

You can't deny that Septa mangement isn't half at Fault , why was serviced axed on the Diesel system when many were fine with a transfer....Why end service on the Trolley system , then stonewall the City of Philly? Why end service on the Manayuk viaduct claiming it was going to collapse when infact that was far from true.... Why cut up some healthy bus lines? Septa likes to shrink as much as possible since getting into the biz and unlike neighboring systems were most of the network was preserved or fixed Septa has just let it rot. Some is Feds and Harrisburg , but most is Septa and most of the Rail community knows this. The Recent Silverliner V issues , delays and design show how stupid and backwards septa is... Look there trying to sell the City Branch and few other lines....

What do you mean they're trying to sell a few lines? As in hand them over to a private company (i.e. Norfolk Southern)? Would PATCO be involved? I know they're owned and maintained by the Delaware River Port Authority... Yeah, that'll happen...

What is the City Branch? What lines do they want to sell?

[Parkway]

For all people talk about the axing of the diesel system I feel like low ridership had as much to do with it as anything. For instance the Newtown line had something like 250 riders a day in its last year of service, even less than the Cynwyd dinky.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

What do you mean they're trying to sell a few lines? As in hand them over to a private company (i.e. Norfolk Southern)? Would PATCO be involved? I know they're owned and maintained by the Delaware River Port Authority... Yeah, that'll happen...

What is the City Branch? What lines do they want to sell?

They've sold parts of the older Diesel and Electric network to towns for Trail use , which many Transit Advocates , and Employees say is a mistake. Like the Manayuk Bridge , West Chester Branch , Oxford Branch , Quakertown line , all trailed or close to being trailed thanks to Septa. Unlike NJT or MARC which saves there lines or protects them , Septa seems to just give them away and not to other RR's. NS and CSX have no use for these lines , but the people living along them deserve a future corridor into Philly. The PATCO is fine and the only advanced line down there , uses smart link cards , is getting countdown clocks... But not Septa , its not like they would have a hard time rebuilding the Trolley Septa , Penndot at the Request of Philly has rebuilt most of the 23 and some of the 56 line , along with the wires...all Septa needs is a Trolley Barn... But Septa even though it has space in North Philly refuses to restore both routes , which were the busiest Trolley lines before they were axed...

[donoteat]

There is absolutely no reason why SEPTA shouldn't sell the City Branch. The east-west Market Street corridor is already pretty-well transit-saturated, and a further east-west transit corridor would be almost meaningless at this point. Make it an elevated/subterranean park, the area could certainly use one.

SEPTA ought to be focusing on restoring light-rail service on bustituted streetcar lines and instituting new service in areas with essentially no rail transit, like the Roosevelt Boulevard corridor and nearly all of South Philadelphia.

Philadelphia is in a nasty position where the city really urgently needs about six more heavy-rail rapid transit lines and is highly unlikely to get any more any time in the future. So we have to focus on what can be easily improved at a reasonable cost, and there's a lot that can be. There is so much potential in the city's transit network that it seems almost criminal to let it rot like SEPTA is doing. I could see a highly-developed light rail network being built in Philly for almost no cost because so much of the infrastructure is already there. I could see S-bahn style service on Regional Rail, with 15-minute headways on all lines, as being completely feasible. That SEPTA not only is unable to do this, but furthermore seems to have no ambition of improving service whatsoever in the future is almost criminal.

[Qubert]

Originally Posted by donoteat

There is absolutely no reason why SEPTA shouldn't sell the City Branch. The east-west Market Street corridor is already pretty-well transit-saturated, and a further east-west transit corridor would be almost meaningless at this point. Make it an elevated/subterranean park, the area could certainly use one.

SEPTA ought to be focusing on restoring light-rail service on bustituted streetcar lines and instituting new service in areas with essentially no rail transit, like the Roosevelt Avenue corridor and nearly all of South Philadelphia.

Philadelphia is in a nasty position where the city really urgently needs about six more heavy-rail rapid transit lines and is highly unlikely to get any more any time in the future. So we have to focus on what can be easily improved at a reasonable cost, and there's a lot that can be. There is so much potential in the city's transit network that it seems almost criminal to let it rot like SEPTA is doing. I could see a highly-developed light rail network being built in Philly for almost no cost because so much of the infrastructure is already there. I could see S-bahn style service on Regional Rail, with 15-minute headways on all lines, as being completely feasible. That SEPTA not only is unable to do this, but furthermore seems to have no ambition of improving service whatsoever in the future is almost criminal.

I can't believe I'm about to defend SEPTA, but in fairness it recieves zero help from Harrisburg on these issues. Heck, it's a battle just to keep the rural hicks in the legislature from trying to zero out it's funding.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

They've sold parts of the older Diesel and Electric network to towns for Trail use , which many Transit Advocates , and Employees say is a mistake. Like the Manayuk Bridge , West Chester Branch , Oxford Branch , Quakertown line , all trailed or close to being trailed thanks to Septa. Unlike NJT or MARC which saves there lines or protects them , Septa seems to just give them away and not to other RR's. NS and CSX have no use for these lines , but the people living along them deserve a future corridor into Philly. The PATCO is fine and the only advanced line down there , uses smart link cards , is getting countdown clocks... But not Septa , its not like they would have a hard time rebuilding the Trolley Septa , Penndot at the Request of Philly has rebuilt most of the 23 and some of the 56 line , along with the wires...all Septa needs is a Trolley Barn... But Septa even though it has space in North Philly refuses to restore both routes , which were the busiest Trolley lines before they were axed...

Don't even get me started with the West Chester line. Some of the fastest growing communities in the COUNTRY are located in Chester County. Some of them are right around West Chester. Yet, SEPTA abandoned that line 26 years ago this coming September.

Originally Posted by donoteat

There is absolutely no reason why SEPTA shouldn't sell the City Branch. The east-west Market Street corridor is already pretty-well transit-saturated, and a further east-west transit corridor would be almost meaningless at this point. Make it an elevated/subterranean park, the area could certainly use one.

SEPTA ought to be focusing on restoring light-rail service on bustituted streetcar lines and instituting new service in areas with essentially no rail transit, like the Roosevelt Avenue corridor and nearly all of South Philadelphia.

Philadelphia is in a nasty position where the city really urgently needs about six more heavy-rail rapid transit lines and is highly unlikely to get any more any time in the future. So we have to focus on what can be easily improved at a reasonable cost, and there's a lot that can be. There is so much potential in the city's transit network that it seems almost criminal to let it rot like SEPTA is doing. I could see a highly-developed light rail network being built in Philly for almost no cost because so much of the infrastructure is already there. I could see S-bahn style service on Regional Rail, with 15-minute headways on all lines, as being completely feasible. That SEPTA not only is unable to do this, but furthermore seems to have no ambition of improving service whatsoever in the future is almost criminal.

You mention Roosevelt Avenue. Do you mean the 12-lane auto-infested hell that is Roosevelt Blvd running from the Schuylkill Expressway all the way to Northeast Philly? I agree that corridor is in dire need of rail infrastructure...

[chris123678]

Septa is what I like to call a 'half ass" transit system.
Plans to extend the Market Frankford Line- Never Happened
Plans to Extend the Broad Street Line- Maybe in the next 10 years
Plans to Extend the Noristown Highspeed line- Maybe in 5 years.
This is stuff that should have been completed. Septa actually has 3 rapid transit "heavy rail lines" and all of them need to be extended.
Market Frankford El Stations need to be removed- Millbourne- Nobody ever gets on at that stop. EVER.
11th street- Entirely to close, to 13th and 15th, remove one of them.

Honestly, they should have put the el underground a longtime ago.

Regional Rail Line Service- Every 1. Sucks.
Septa couldn't even get people home the day of the Philles Parade.


Broad Street line- cars need to be replaced.
El cars- are falling apart.

For a tranist company that is the 6th is the nation, with nearly 200 bus routes and runs all 5 modes of transportation. It needs to change.

[Parkway]

Well the answer to the first part is simple, money. It really has less to do with SEPTA than it does with the fact that we live in a state that proves over and over again that it hates funding transit.

Secondly I disagree that the regional rail system sucks. While I think it could be better (half hour off peak headways) SEPTA stacks up well against other systems like Metra and Metrolink both on frequency and price. SEPTA offers hourly off-peak and weekend service something that many other commuter rail systems do not. Yes many stations could use a renovation but that gets back to the money issue.

Don't even get me started on the parade, the best estimates say that there were 2 million people at the parade. No system anywhere could handle being that far over capacity (subway, el, and regional rail handle about 400,000 passengers a day)

Why do the Broad Street line cars need to be replaced? The interiors are a little dated but mechanically they are solid as rocks and can probably go another 15 years. Why spend money where it doesn't need to be spent?

[chris123678]

Originally Posted by Parkway

Well the answer to the first part is simple, money. It really has less to do with SEPTA than it does with the fact that we live in a state that proves over and over again that it hates funding transit.

Secondly I disagree that the regional rail system sucks. While I think it could be better (half hour off peak headways) SEPTA stacks up well against other systems like Metra and Metrolink both on frequency and price. SEPTA offers hourly off-peak and weekend service something that many other commuter rail systems do not. Yes many stations could use a renovation but that gets back to the money issue.

Don't even get me started on the parade, the best estimates say that there were 2 million people at the parade. No system anywhere could handle being that far over capacity (subway, el, and regional rail handle about 400,000 passengers a day)

Why do the Broad Street line cars need to be replaced? The interiors are a little dated but mechanically they are solid as rocks and can probably go another 15 years. Why spend money where it doesn't need to be spent?

The Broad Street Line Cars have been around since 1982, they sound terrible coming into the stations, with that horrible Screeching noise.
When i said sucks, i meant the hour between trains. Regional rail line service is pretty good.

Septa needs to realize that extensions are necessary. As I've said before, close some of the unnecessary stations. Use that money to extend.
Again, Millbourne, 11th street, 63rd Street, need to be removed and should have never been replaced. Nobody gets on at those stations and they cost ALOT to maintain. They are spending money on the wrong things.

[donoteat]

Originally Posted by chris123678

The Broad Street Line Cars have been around since 1982, they sound terrible coming into the stations, with that horrible Screeching noise.
When i said sucks, i meant the hour between trains. Regional rail line service is pretty good.

Septa needs to realize that extensions are necessary. As I've said before, close some of the unnecessary stations. Use that money to extend.
Again, Millbourne, 11th street, 63rd Street, need to be removed and should have never been replaced. Nobody gets on at those stations and they cost ALOT to maintain. They are spending money on the wrong things.

The amount of money saved by closing a few stations is a pittance compared to the amount of money required to extend the system. Closing stations would result in only one thing: closed stations. (and possibly budget slashes to match the money saved by closing stations)

With uncooperative legislators in Harrisburg, SEPTA should really be focusing on what will serve the largest amount of people for the least capital investment, which at this time is probably reinstating trolley service on routes 56 and 23, preferably with modern low-floor articulated streetcars since the K-cars were dated when they were new.

[Parkway]

SEPTA's current funding priorities are very unsexy things like the Wayne Juntion substation. While it is not flashy and there is no ribbon cutting, projects like this are vital to keeping any trains running at all. This is the main problem with all the old transit systems on the East Coast.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by chris123678

Septa is what I like to call a 'half ass" transit system.
Plans to extend the Market Frankford Line- Never Happened
Plans to Extend the Broad Street Line- Maybe in the next 10 years
Plans to Extend the Noristown Highspeed line- Maybe in 5 years.
This is stuff that should have been completed. Septa actually has 3 rapid transit "heavy rail lines" and all of them need to be extended.
Market Frankford El Stations need to be removed- Millbourne- Nobody ever gets on at that stop. EVER.
11th street- Entirely to close, to 13th and 15th, remove one of them.

Honestly, they should have put the el underground a longtime ago.

Regional Rail Line Service- Every 1. Sucks.
Septa couldn't even get people home the day of the Philles Parade.


Broad Street line- cars need to be replaced.
El cars- are falling apart.

For a tranist company that is the 6th is the nation, with nearly 200 bus routes and runs all 5 modes of transportation. It needs to change.

Well the EL to be fair was only supposed to be extended to to Roosevelt too meet the Roosevelt Subway...it was one of several combo projects.... Alot of the Extensions are Easy , its not like there that hard or expensive....yet Septa drags its feet even under Good Harrisburg Years. Rendell was very nice towards Septa yet they didn't expand anything , except the 15 Trolley. Amtrak took advantage of Rendell and Stable " Harrisburg" for Keystone Upgrades... Idk Why Septa didn't which is why I don't like when people defend Septa saying its all Harrisburg or mostly Harrisburg. The Blame in my Opinion falls more on Septa. Are the EL cars falling apart already i'm not suprised... As for Millbourne a TOD is planned for that site and about 500 a day use that stop. Thats another issue i have with Septa they don't seem to want to pursue TOD that could double ridership.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

Don't even get me started with the West Chester line. Some of the fastest growing communities in the COUNTRY are located in Chester County. Some of them are right around West Chester. Yet, SEPTA abandoned that line 26 years ago this coming September.


You mention Roosevelt Avenue. Do you mean the 12-lane auto-infested hell that is Roosevelt Blvd running from the Schuylkill Expressway all the way to Northeast Philly? I agree that corridor is in dire need of rail infrastructure...

That line , like the Cywnd / Manayuk line and Parkersburg line wasn't in bad condition yet Septa lied and was caught lying and they shuttered service which killed Ridership.... The West Chester line is in decent shape and used for tourism...and the other lines don't require much work.

[donoteat]

But.. but...

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Well the EL to be fair was only supposed to be extended to to Roosevelt too meet the Roosevelt Subway...it was one of several combo projects.... Alot of the Extensions are Easy , its not like there that hard or expensive....

These extensions aren't easy. They might be easy in China, where you can pay people a subsistence wage and force through a heavy-rail line with no input from locals, but in America we have to go through committees, environmental impact statements, listen to all the NIMBYs whine, pay people union wages, and so forth. While this is all well and good and keeps us a first-world nation, it does increase the difficulty and cost of getting one of these lines in place.

I think there are some people at 1234 Market Street who genuinely want to see SEPTA become a shining example of urban transportation, but unfortunately there seem to be quite a few more in the city and state government more interested in saving their constituents money in the short term.

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

As for Millbourne a TOD is planned for that site and about 500 a day use that stop. Thats another issue i have with Septa they don't seem to want to pursue TOD that could double ridership.

SEPTA doesn't pursue transit-oriented development because it isn't their job to pursue transit-oriented development, that's the property owners' job. SEPTA doesn't own the land around stations for them to offer it for transit oriented development. As nice at it would be to see Market from 30th to 69th as beautiful walkable neighborhoods with thriving businesses and loads of trendy young people doing trendy young people things, it isn't going to happen unless developers wake up to the potential of TOD.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Well the EL to be fair was only supposed to be extended to to Roosevelt too meet the Roosevelt Subway...it was one of several combo projects.... Alot of the Extensions are Easy , its not like there that hard or expensive....yet Septa drags its feet even under Good Harrisburg Years. Rendell was very nice towards Septa yet they didn't expand anything , except the 15 Trolley. Amtrak took advantage of Rendell and Stable " Harrisburg" for Keystone Upgrades... Idk Why Septa didn't which is why I don't like when people defend Septa saying its all Harrisburg or mostly Harrisburg. The Blame in my Opinion falls more on Septa. Are the EL cars falling apart already i'm not suprised... As for Millbourne a TOD is planned for that site and about 500 a day use that stop. Thats another issue i have with Septa they don't seem to want to pursue TOD that could double ridership.

Nobody defends SEPTA - at least nobody who uses it on a regular basis. A lot of their long-standing problems are their fault to some degree - lack of vision, poor planning. However all of these fantastic paper proposals that are floating on the internet cost money that SEPTA doesn't have, that Harrisburg won't collect and that Washington won't disburse.

The system, the physical plant that makes up the SEPTA network, is more or less held together with gum and prayer. The constituent facilities they inherited from their predecessors were already in beat-up shape back then. Much of what they put into physical improvement goes into renovation - badly needed renovation. Looking at things in the long term, it would surely be smarter to fix today's problems and plan for tomorrow's possibilities and I'll grant you that SEPTA could be doing a better job of that but until that magical well of money appears somewhere they're going to continue doing what they've been doing - attempting to keep bridges from rusting into oblivion, attempting to keep their substations from melting down and paralyzing the region and attempting to keep equipment in working order for a riding public that often views conveyances as makeshift trash cans or toilets - while moving 600,000 people a day through one of America's oldest most densely populated cities.

I'm not apologizing for them but this is the real world and they can't do everything we want. The problem is bigger than them.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

That line , like the Cywnd / Manayuk line and Parkersburg line wasn't in bad condition yet Septa lied and was caught lying and they shuttered service which killed Ridership.... The West Chester line is in decent shape and used for tourism...and the other lines don't require much work.

Then I suppose it would not cost as much then to reinstate commuter rail service between Elwyn and West Chester, since apparently the trackage really doesn't need replacing, just a double track. Altho, I guess the existing track needs to be moved, so...

I posted before about a question about how much it would cost. Apparently it's in the $300-500 million range. Would that include reinstating all 12 abandoned stations? If it does, I'm sure rebuilding half of those would drop that cost. I'd pick the top 5 or 6 based on the best ridership chances. West Chester and Nields Ave, of course would be on it. Glenn Mills probably would be, too.