Taipei: The World's Most Underrated City?

[Quixote]

A look at the rapid development of New Taipei City:

2012
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Em4t6xcjwydQ8kDu7

2022
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GeA29BhoPjNAY7J99

[Quixote]

Taipei may very well be the urban crown jewel of Asia, but Taiwan's other cities punch well above their weight. It looks like an amazing country.

Although not Taiwanese, I am Chinese American, and Taiwan represents the last of Chinese democracy now that my beloved motherland of Hong Kong is going to shit. Any invasion of Taiwan would involve a D-Day-like beachhead invasion, resulting in at least 70,000 deaths. Taipei is fortunate to be encompassed by mountains, but two major cities — Tainan (the "historic" city) and Kaohsiung (the second-largest-city) — are situated along the Strait.

The world is focused on Russia/Ukraine, but China/Taiwan is a much more serious matter. From human rights abuses against its own citizens, including the imprisonment, ethnic cleansing, and forced labor of Uyghurs in Xinjiang, to annexation of territorial lands under dispute with its neighbors (including Russia), to hypocrisy over Ukraine, to violation of the HK agreement, to climate change contributions, to imperial aspirations through pseudo-kleptocratic "debt-trap" diplomacy, China's lack accountability for any alleged wrongdoing as well as its carte blanche approach to geopolitics make it the biggest threat actor to international security and stability since Nazi Germany. Taiwan is just the tip of the iceberg.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Although not Taiwanese, I am Chinese …

The modern people of the Republic of China (also known as “Taiwanese”) make no such distinction, no? That’s the point — each considers to be the legitimate (one and only) Chinese government, neither controls 100.0% of China’s territory.

For a good chunk of the second half of the 20th century East Asia had no less than THREE such conflicts — Korea, China, Vietnam. Down to only two now…

As I said earlier, personally, I’d love to visit China, but when I do it’ll be the RoC that I’ll visit, not Red China.

(For the record, exact same with Korea: I’d visit South Korea only (and that would check the box “I visited Korea” for me.)

[Quixote]

^ Correct. The Chinese Civil War essentially never really ended. The defeated KMT didn't surrender but rather simply fled to Taiwan; the CCP won the battle of the mainland, but not the war over China. The Japanese ceded Taiwan to the KMT-led government of the Republic of China, which was based on the mainland at the time. Taiwan isn't any more of a "rogue province" of the mainland than the mainland is a breakaway state of Taiwan. Actually, the ROC if anything has more of a claim to China because it has controlled both the mainland and Taiwan. The difference is that the PRC is a country of 1.3 billion people while Taiwan is home to only 24 million people, and that the international community doesn't formally recognize Taiwan as an independent sovereign state. The PRC conflates One-China principle with One-China policy. They're not the same thing.

As for your first question, Taiwanese people (or at least the ones I know and have met) don't refer to themselves as "Chinese" in terms of origin, but will when it comes to ethnicity. It's no different than Quebecois viewing themselves as "French-Canadian," their culture being distinct but clearly a Francophone culture.

The CCP is the most evil governing entity there is. Brokering peace talks between Saudi Arabia and Iran (trying to appear as mediator, but really meant to rile the US), encouraging an end to the Russia/Ukraine war (even though China supplied dual-use technologies and was basically Russia's economic lifeline), and going on and on about not meddling in international affairs when it aided the Myanmar military coup, and continues to try to hack into US intelligence/defense systems and sow disinformation across social media. At least Russia (mostly) doesn't pretend to be something it's not.

[Quixote]

The only possible upside I see to an invasion of Taiwan by the CCP is that:

1) It would be more difficult for the PLA to wage war against the U.S. and its allies while also keeping order at home
2) Russia could still be involved in Ukraine or would be significantly depleted in strength, numbers, and morale
3) Economic sanctions imposed against China, though much more difficult considering China's role in the global economy, could finally be the straw that break's the camel's back for the people of China, who are already fed up with the CCP. The collapse of the Chinese real estate market has led many to put all of their money in savings, and some have gone on bank runs only to find out that they can't access their money, which in turn sparked a few protests. With the imposition of economic sanctions, the value of the RMB would plummet, and the real estate holdings of largely the middle and upper middle class would be worth pennies. The U.S. owes China approximately 850 million in debt, but China is also facing its own debt crisis, an aging population and lopsided gender imbalance, and a disenchanted youth workforce that refuses to work partly as a form of protest.

[Fabricio JF]

Quixote, do you have videos of how visitors are received by Taiwanese immigration authorities at Taoyuan International Airport?

Could you stratify the videos by nationalities for which a visa is required versus those that are visa-exempt?

Selective approaches, in which there is a need for searching as they are done, would there be these videos too? For example, taking the visitor to a reserved room for more questions than usual (Which could require some knowledge of Mandarin and/or English).

There are countries where the visa is obtained at the country's own airport, causing insecurity for the visitor, thankfully this does not apply to Taiwan.

We know that police in any country can arrest transgressing foreign citizens in accordance with local laws and that laws may be different in other countries, not resulting in detention. Ex: countries that decriminalize drugs vs countries that criminalize drugs, countries that require burkas for women vs countries that do not require burkas for women, etc. After detention, countries can deport them to the passenger's country of origin, in accordance with bilateral agreements or keep the passenger detained for trial.

Many visitors are unaware of the laws, procedures and inspection areas of the authorities and there are cases of need to contact the consulate of the country of origin, in case of arrest. We know that 99% of cases the authorities are correct, but there is the 1% of cases where an innocent citizen can be detained, which no one wants to happen anywhere in the world unless the country is a pariah or is in war.

We know that in the case of Taiwan, as you said, there are possibilities that procedures will be changed, given the country's own situation with the CCP's hostilities, which were lower during the period of Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin.

And all these procedures are perfectly normal, but we know that for a visitor it is always good to have all the information available, even to speed up entry into the country, whether to study, to visit for tourism, to work, to reside, everything in accordance with local laws.

I would be grateful if you could share such videos of foreigners arriving at Taipei airport, not considering the sea route, which is another possibility.

[Agitprop]

Originally Posted by Quixote

That bozo also pronounced Nice, France the way you'd describe someone with a friendly disposition.

Gwei-lo gonna gwei-lo even in his own ancestral continent!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Quixote

^ Correct. The Chinese Civil War essentially never really ended. The defeated KMT didn't surrender but rather simply fled to Taiwan; the CCP won the battle of the mainland, but not the war over China. The Japanese ceded Taiwan to the KMT-led government of the Republic of China, which was based on the mainland at the time. Taiwan isn't any more of a "rogue province" of the mainland than the mainland is a breakaway state of Taiwan. Actually, the ROC if anything has more of a claim to China because it has controlled both the mainland and Taiwan. The difference is that the PRC is a country of 1.3 billion people while Taiwan is home to only 24 million people, and that the international community doesn't formally recognize Taiwan as an independent sovereign state. The PRC conflates One-China principle with One-China policy. They're not the same thing.

As for your first question, Taiwanese people (or at least the ones I know and have met) don't refer to themselves as "Chinese" in terms of origin, but will when it comes to ethnicity. It's no different than Quebecois viewing themselves as "French-Canadian," their culture being distinct but clearly a Francophone culture.

The CCP is the most evil governing entity there is. Brokering peace talks between Saudi Arabia and Iran (trying to appear as mediator, but really meant to rile the US), encouraging an end to the Russia/Ukraine war (even though China supplied dual-use technologies and was basically Russia's economic lifeline), and going on and on about not meddling in international affairs when it aided the Myanmar military coup, and continues to try to hack into US intelligence/defense systems and sow disinformation across social media. At least Russia (mostly) doesn't pretend to be something it's not.

To me, it's not inconceivable that the CCP could eventually lose its grip on power, and when the day comes when the Mainland Chinese population wants to move forward to something else, Taiwan and the mainland could reunite under the democratic RoC government of present-day Taiwan.

I find that already more likely than the scenario of a CCP conquest of a fortified, rich, high-tech, heavily armed, hostile island.

i.e. if you told me that in the late 21st century, Taiwan and Mainland China are again one single country, I would probably bet on "the CCP has collapsed and the Chinese have switched to democracy".

(I'd also make the same bet for Korea: if a reliable crystal ball told me there's only one unified Korea in 50 years, my best bet wouldn't be "the North has conquered the South".)

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by lio45

To me, it's not inconceivable that the CCP could eventually lose its grip on power, and when the day comes when the Mainland Chinese population wants to move forward to something else, Taiwan and the mainland could reunite under the democratic RoC government of present-day Taiwan.

I find that already more likely than the scenario of a CCP conquest of a fortified, rich, high-tech, heavily armed, hostile island.

i.e. if you told me that in the late 21st century, Taiwan and Mainland China are again one single country, I would probably bet on "the CCP has collapsed and the Chinese have switched to democracy".

(I'd also make the same bet for Korea: if a reliable crystal ball told me there's only one unified Korea in 50 years, my best bet wouldn't be "the North has conquered the South".)

I think it is highly likely the CCP collapses in the next half century, but if Taiwan and China are "reunited" then that will have definitely been done by threat of China's gun aimed at Taiwan's head. There would be no other practical reason for Taiwan to keep up its autonomy.

[Crawford]

Yeah, not sure why Taiwan would willingly merge with mainland China. They're far too different at this point, and Taiwan's advantages and distinct culture would likely cease to exist. West-East Germany unification made sense bc it was not a unification but actually the West swallowing the East. And the East wanted to be swallowed. A North-South Korea unification would likely be a similar scenario.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, not sure why Taiwan would willingly merge with mainland China.

How about “because it’s been actively claiming that territory continuously since the late 1940s?” They officially see themselves as China’s government in exile. Your question sounds like “why on Earth would General de Gaulle willingly return to a semi-destroyed France in 1945, when he’s been perfectly comfortable living in a nice city like London?”

West-East Germany unification made sense bc it was not a unification but actually the West swallowing the East. And the East wanted to be swallowed. A North-South Korea unification would likely be a similar scenario.

In the scenario I envision, Mainland China would want to be swallowed by a successful capitalistic Republic of China, just like the DDR by the BRD.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by lio45

How about “because it’s been actively claiming that territory continuously since the late 1940s?” They officially see themselves as China’s government in exile. Your question sounds like “why on Earth would General de Gaulle willingly return to a semi-destroyed France in 1945, when he’s been perfectly comfortable living in a nice city like London?”

Perhaps, but you have to remember that it's comparing one person who lived most of his life in a place wanting to return home after a short multi-year
exile compared to a group of people who mostly weren't even alive prior to the split. People who have never experienced a unified China may not have the same connection to it as those who have. Even the people who were alive back then were pretty young and probably don't remember that much about it. Enough time has past for a place to develop its own separate identity.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by lio45

How about “because it’s been actively claiming that territory continuously since the late 1940s?”

They do that to preserve legitimacy. You really think Taiwan wants to be swallowed by China (which would be the result of any "merger")? That would destroy Taiwan, even if China were docile and broken.

Originally Posted by lio45

In the scenario I envision, Mainland China would want to be swallowed by a successful capitalistic Republic of China, just like the DDR by the BRD.

The BRD had 5x the population, 15x the economy and basically all the cultural weight. The division was also arbitrary. Taiwan/Formosa isn't an arbitrary carveout. Taiwan can't swallow China.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by lio45

To me, it's not inconceivable that the CCP could eventually lose its grip on power, and when the day comes when the Mainland Chinese population wants to move forward to something else, Taiwan and the mainland could reunite under the democratic RoC government of present-day Taiwan.

I find that already more likely than the scenario of a CCP conquest of a fortified, rich, high-tech, heavily armed, hostile island.

i.e. if you told me that in the late 21st century, Taiwan and Mainland China are again one single country, I would probably bet on "the CCP has collapsed and the Chinese have switched to democracy".

I don't think Taiwan has any interest in being subsumed into a country of 1+ billion facing demographic and economic crises of existential proportions, and one that is basically committing every crime against humanity possible. Okay, they're not shoving Uyghurs into gas chambers and ovens, but what they're doing to them is an atrocity that the world is quite frankly not doing enough in response. Taiwan believes they are the "true China," but I think they'd rather just be called "Taiwan" and drop the "Republic of China." Taiwan is much better off being what Austria is to Germany.

What is troubling about China is that the CCP is developing a surveillance-based espionage system against its own people, where each citizen's every move is recorded to form a personal profile whose "social credit" score measures how much dissident risk they present. That "political report card" in turn determines what jobs a person can/can't have and whether or not they can leave the country. As a result, organizing peaceful protests is becoming increasingly more difficult.

If the CCP is to ever meet is demise (fingers crossed), it will be because of the decimation of China's economy. The tacit "social contract" between the CCP and Chinese citizens has always been reduced personal freedoms in exchange for economic prosperity. That's why China has built underutilized HSR lines, roads to (literally) nowhere, invested in foreign countries, etc. All of that inflates GDP, and as long as GDP rises, the CCP can tout "economic growth." Meanwhile, Xi Jinping has told the people of China to "eat bitterness" in face of forecasted hardship because adversity builds character. We'll see how long that lasts.

What's next? Banning people from speaking Cantonese, Min, Wu, and all the other dialects that aren't mutually intelligible with Mandarin because doing so is "subversive"?

[Quixote]

It's unfortunate because it would probably cost hundreds of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars, but I think China needs to fail at the imperialism game and be on the losing end of a major global conflict a la Germany and Japan before it can fully begin a new chapter. If history repeats itself as it often does, then the CCP is already digging its own grave.

If China wants to face off against the U.S. in a military and economic battle, it would most certainly lose... badly. The PLA has not fought on a real battlefield since 1979. And any warfare waged would be a provocation by the Chinese. Taiwan is fine with the status quo; no international recognition is needed so long as they can be left alone and "we can agree to disagree." Rest assured, the U.S. will more than jump at the opportunity to defeat its biggest geopolitical rival, and will do anything and everything needed to bring down the world's last major autocracy because "flipping" China could spell the end for Russia and North Korea.

[The North One]

lol the CCP has long outlasted everybody's expectations. I don't count on it losing power anytime soon, if in most of your lifetimes.

Also not sure why anybody would think whatever replaces the CCP would be better. Look at Russia, it's an aggressive autocratic nightmare. Worse than the Soviet Union ever was.

[Quixote]

^ China is a much more integral part of the global economy, and its citizens have gotten too much of a taste of "what could be" for the CCP to tighten their grip on society so much and so suddenly.

When you start confining people to their homes, not giving people access to money they have put in savings, suggesting that educated youth should go to the countryside and work the fields, telling people to "eat bitterness" when they were promised prosperity, or (heaven forbid) crack down on people speaking in their native Chinese dialects that are deemed "foreign languages," that's going to backfire eventually. These dynamics aren't playing out in isolation.

Like I said, restricted personal freedoms in exchange for wealth and prosperity. Money talks just as much in China. China's economic collapse has coincided with even more oppressive tactics. A whole bunch of young men can't get laid because there aren't enough women to "go around," and the women (who are not valued as much as men to begin with) have the luxury of being very selective with whom they date, much less marry and procreate with (if they even want to have just one child).

[AaronPGH]

Favorite city on the planet, maybe tied with Mexico City. Incredibly vibrant, clean and friendly. It's also extremely queer and creative. If you are into techno, Taipei punches far above it's weight as far as clubs and DJ crews go. I try to get back here once a year... always surprised at how easy it is to drop in and find what you need as an English speaker. You won't find a ton of English, but everyone in Taipei is so warm and helpful that it's not much of an issue. Just bring google translate for food menus lol.

I know folks are saying it's ugly, but there's something about the manicured chaotic jungle brutalism that I find sexy and weird. Like, what is this?! I am obsessed: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4eMyOohG1F/

[Fabricio JF]

Your statement is in line with my Taiwanese friend who lived here in my country and then returned to Taipei for family-related reasons: English is spoken in Taipei, yes, but English is spoken more in Singapore according to him. And he told me that even in HK it's also easier for Anglophony to occur than Taipei. But Taipei is ahead of other EA major cities in this aspect also due to the fact that it's developed and has very friendly citizens who are interconnected with the world not only virtually but also physically. Where could I have imagined that I would find a Taiwanese person in a remote city here in my country almost an antipode for them, with 530 thousand inhabitants and where my parents live? Plus. There's a second Taiwanese I know that works for my company in another city.

[Quixote]

Taipei is beautiful because it’s attractive, not because it’s pretty. There’s a slight difference. Berlin’s cityscape is prettier (but only marginally pretty in absolute terms; drab compared to other European cities), but I don’t find it nearly as attractive.

Vibrancy, fun, quirkiness, and safety count for a lot.