Smyrna: $250 million Belmont Hills redevelopment starts in Spring!

[netdragon]

bfarley: With all due respect, I don't know why you are so fixated on MARTA vs just heavy rail and light rail in general. I think it's a common mistake for people to equate MARTA to "rail". MARTA has busses too. It just happens to have a rail trunk.

It also isn't about suburbs vs city. In fact, much of Cobb County is more densely developed than about 50% of Atlanta. Much of the urban part of Atlanta, with some exceptions, is situated inside the beltline. The rest is mostly suburban. Even considering areas like midtown, Lindbergh, downtown, Lenox, Virginia Highlands, West End, etc there are only 800/sq mi more in Atlanta than Smyrna. If you take out those main areas I just mentioned, suddenly the rest of Atlanta is quite a bit more suburban than Smyrna.

Someone can't even say MARTA's experience would be useful. It's not, since Cobb communities like are based on arterial road systems with subdivisions filled inside. Sometimes densely packed townhome communities or cluster housing, like in much of Smyrna, but still not the kind of road system where people can just walk to the rail, then get on it and take the train to one of four main employment centers, then get off and walk to work. Work zones are scattered about in Cobb County, and people even travel quite a bit inter-county (Cherokee, North Fulton, Douglas, etc). CCT is very efficient at managing its transportation system even with the complexity of Cobb County and does it without a lot of financial waste, with connections into other rail systems. There's no reason why it couldn't handle rail as well. It's just an upgrade of some bus-lines to rail, enhancing the feeder system a little, and then putting in some parking garages along the light rail for commuters that don't want to use bus feeders or aren't in a place they can.

Regardless of who managed the Cobb County lines, it would be a boon to MARTA if it connected in. I'd like to know a valid reason why it has to be MARTA managing the line.

There are plenty of examples where a hybrid system works. For instance, in NYC, when you leave Grand Central headed towards CT, you're on Metro North.

What I see much more likely is that the rail that connects into Atlanta, such as on Cobb Pkwy, would be a MARTA-CCT partnership. Everything else, such as a trolley line down Windy Hill and a bus feeder system that already exists, would stay CCT

[bfarley30]

netdragon: Obviously, I know there is also a bus system associated with MARTA, bus since I was talking about rail expansion only there is no need to address the bus system. The idea that first, CCT can do a better job than MARTA at anything is funny. This is the problem with transit and transportation in general in the metro area. Instead of having one system we have 4 transit systems doing what one should be doing. CCT primarily only operate down the core of the county. This is the same path that the original MARTA rail line would have taken. The reason MARTA would have worked better is that MARTA would have had bus routes criss crossing the county to connect to the rail stations where as CCT doesn't do that. Primarily because no one would want to take a bus to connect to another BUS just to go into the city.

The problem with your statements is that 1) this is not NYC so rail service isn't going to be set up in the same manner. I agree that trains wouldn't go to all employment centers and you probably wouldn't be able to walk on the "highways" Cobb calls arterial roads. This is where we build a rail system for how our area is designed. MARTA rail works fine with most people either driving and parking or taking there local bus to the rail station and commuting to the area they need to go and transfering where needed. It would be great to catch a train near Kennesaw State and commute to Cumberland in 15 minutes versus trying to catch two buses and it take 40-50 minutes. MARTA's rail would primarily run north/south in the same area where most of the current CCT buses run and take people into the city. Now instead of wasting the bulk of your service duplicating what rail would do, you could now expand feeder buses in other areas and use express buses to travel to areas like Cherokee to bring people into Cobb and to the rail. You can now focus on provider express bus service from a Cumberland rail station to Douglas county via I-285 versus now having to go all the way downtow and then catch another express bus back out to Douglas. CCT is by far NOT equipt to operate a rail system and CCT provides very limited service within the core county that MARTA could easily handle with one rail line and local feeder and shuttle buses around the stations. CCT handles about 10 to 15 thousand riders on 18 routes (including contracted Xpress routes). Eleven are express routes and 9 are routes that run in the north/south corridor taking people to Atlanta. Not to mention routes 10 (again north/south corridor) a local route in Cobb and express to Atlanta and route 30 that goes to west Atlanta. So 13 of the 18 routes do what 1 rail line does. With that said how could an agency like that handle rail like MARTA, with 91 routes (use to be well over 150) and 4 rail lines with a daily ridership of 500,000 bus and rail combined?

And let me define what a hybrid system is; it is not the Metro North. That is a commuter rail system and acts as such from beginning to end. MARTA is a hybrid system because in the denser areas it acts as a traditional subway/rapid rail system while in the suburbs more like a commuter rail. BART is another example. There really aren't any other examples. Definitely none in NYC.

Some of your comments tell me one, you don't understand the complexity of operating a major transit system and two, you must live in Cobb county because if you didn't and lived within MARTA's service area you would understand the importance of having one regional system within the Big Five counties. An expanded rail system could easily handle and produce a number of stations that would be convenient to all areas of Cobb along with a fast and efficient feeder bus system. There is an obvious need for a real transit system to not only bring people around Cobb but to commute into ATL.

As far as your density argument I'm at a loss of word. Removing downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, West End, VaHi, Lindberg, and the other mentioned areas is like saying take most of ATL out and then compare. Well of course if you leave the 30% that isn't dense and then compare of course Cobb would seem more dense. That's like saying take Smyrna, Marietta, Kennesaw, and Ackworth out and then compare density. Atlanta's density is 4,020/sq mi. Cobb's is at 1,952/sq mi. No comparison! Even Smyrna alone is at 3,200/sq mi. Not close.

It's just so funny thinking about good ol' Cobb. You don't want to be part of ATL or MARTA but you try to create a transit system to connect to MARTA and you make sure that when trying to bring in jobs you use the fact that you are part of the metro ATL area. Cobb, please get on your knees and pray that you were close to ATL and received the spill over cause Cobb wouldn't be nothing without Atlanta or MARTA.

[Rail Claimore]

In 10 years, Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton will all be a part of MARTA. The demographics are shifting in favor of it, so it's not of much concern to me. MARTA doesn't need to go beyond those counties anyway and overextend itself. That means the only additional new heavy rail lines should be along Cobb Parkway serving DT Marietta, and also along the Buford Highway corridor in Gwinnett. The former will require a new branch from the existing rail system, probably branching off from Midtown or Bankhead, depending on which route is less costly.

I'm liking all the new development going on in much of Cobb County as well as other parts of Fulton and DeKalb closer in: they're making better use of existing land that's long been underutilized by declining strip malls and 60's/70's suburbia. That will continue regardless of what kind of transit gets built and whether or not it's expanded.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by bfarley30

<snip> hopelessly clueless personal attacks and assumptions

Since you're getting personal, let's check your cred. Do you, like me, own investment property in Atlanta near Pryor street South of I-20? If not, then where do you own property in Atlanta? Is it an urban area? Do you own property in Atlanta at all? Have you even walked on a road South of I-20, the most urban part of Atlanta? Or do you see Atlanta as the more suburban part North of I-20 (with the exception of a few neighborhoods flanking downtown)? Do you consider Buckhead urban? That's laughable.

And before you get on your high horse about Atlanta being so less nimby than Cobb County (as if that's relevant for MARTA discussions) what activity on the Southeast beltline is happening other than the park in Peoplestown? Absolutely nothing. So Atlanta isn't as different than Cobb County as you thought. Still the wealthy running the show and not wanting to connect to more disadvantaged neighborhoods, screwing over investors like myself who actually are investing in the South side even though I'm apparently the typical Cobb County resident when your own city is ignoring the South end. Suddenly, you don't feel so high and mighty anymore when the mirror is pointed back in your direction, do you?

And what do you know? The South end is the most urban part of Atlanta... Yet it is growing less dense and being largely ignored by Atlanta. So let's continue this discussion...

Originally Posted by bfarley30

As far as your density argument I'm at a loss of word. Removing downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, West End, VaHi, Lindberg, and the other mentioned areas is like saying take most of ATL out and then compare. Well of course if you leave the 30% that isn't dense and then compare of course Cobb would seem more dense. That's like saying take Smyrna, Marietta, Kennesaw, and Ackworth out and then compare density. Atlanta's density is 4,020/sq mi. Cobb's is at 1,952/sq mi. No comparison! Even Smyrna alone is at 3,200/sq mi. Not close.

So, I think you have it backwards. You take out the 30% of Atlanta that IS dense, and you're left with 70% being less dense than the 3,200/sq mi in Smyrna. That means, Smyrna is more dense than MOST of Atlanta. Especially Buckhead. So, you get over the top by stacking highrise in a small area along Peachtree. That doesn't count. Most of Atlanta North of I-20 is suburban in character other than those flanking the main strip. And as I mentioned, you're not even fighting to maintain density in the urban South end, but bleeding people like crazy.

Just a typical Atlanta resident thinking it is anything but suburban just because a small part of Atlanta is urban, just because they have a strip of high density that makes up for the suburban character of the rest of it. It is a bit typical for Atlanta residents to think that Atlanta is the population center of the metro, when really the top-end perimeter is. Perhaps if you invested a little more in the South-end, you'd have a claim. However, the South end is the most under-invested part of Atlanta, and that's a shame.

Let's discuss areas like Smyrna and then tell me that most of Atlanta is more dense? In fact, look at a satellite image and compare the density of Smyrna and Cumberland, and Overlook of Vinings, West Village, Market Village, Ivy Walk, etc to the adjoining areas of Atlanta in Buckhead and areas West, and what do you see? Compare even Town Center to Buckhead. What do you see?

Then, look at what is happening in Cumberland. For the first time, highrise residential is being built in the center of Cumberland in two locations along Cumberland Blvd. If that trend continues, how long do you think it will be until Cumberland skews Cobb's average density just as midtown, Lenox and Virginia Highlands and other areas close to Peachtree do for Atlanta?

And how walkable is Atlanta? For god sakes, you are just starting to build beltline trails. Smyrna is almost completely built up with walking trails and has the silver comet trail as well.

bring in jobs you use the fact that you are part of the metro ATL area. Cobb, please get on your knees and pray that you were close to ATL and received the spill over cause Cobb wouldn't be nothing without Atlanta or MARTA.

The FOREMOST purpose of a rail in Cobb County would be connecting Town Center and Cumberland along with connecting people to jobs along Cobb Pkwy. Believe it or not, regardless of your view of the metro area, many more people commute from Cobb and neighboring counties to Cobb and the perimeter area than commute into Atlanta.


Now, let's go back to your claim that MARTA would be the right choice for a combined rail system, when it has been raising fares and cutting bus routes in Atlanta, and cannot even fund its operating expenses. You can argue that it's due to its charter making it skewed too much toward capital expenditures (yet it has not expanded its rail) however what makes you think that would change if it expanded? The amounts of money involved would go up, but the same imbalance would exist since it's written into state laws. There would need to be a new agency if we were to create a combined agency.

The other argument that could be made, about rail stock, just wouldn't hold water either. The North metro is likely going to be light rail for the most part. That's a different rail stock than the heavy rail MARTA lines. Even if commuter rail were built along the W&A CSX track, it wouldn't be the same stock. Hybrid shmybrid. MARTA is a heavy rail trunk built like commuter rail with busses handling the local route. It's commuter rail everywhere. It is NOT a people-mover in-town. Even downtown and midtown, it just doesn't have enough density to be a true people mover like the Manhatten subways. There's no light rail, at all, and even the coming Auburn Ave light rail and eventual beltline won't be enough to change that. MARTA = commuter rail, and you must face facts.

And I'm all for a combined agency. But MARTA wouldn't be it. No matter how much trolling you do about how much more progressive Atlanta and MARTA is than Cobb County in your imagination, it doesn't change that MARTA isn't the right agency.

In FACT, I think the best option would be CCT, MARTA, GCT all handle the infrastructure / capital management along with planning for local routes and a metro-wide agency handle operations and planning for regionally important routes, with the most important one in Cobb County obviously being Cobb Parkway connection between Town Center and Cumberland, and major crossing boulevards, which would include most of the employment for the NW region of metro Atlanta.

[Inman Parker]

I have worked in Smyrna for over 5 years and I wouldnt call it walkable at all (or dense). Honestly, I dont even know where to start with that rant.

Obviously there are more people that work in all other parts of the city than work in downtown/midtown, but those are the two largest job centers. Public transit will never work as long as people are going from points A-C, D-B, F-A in Atlanta. Continuing to build a central business district and connecting the outer areas to that central area is the only way it will ever work.

The reason south Atlanta is being "under invested" is because it isnt as desirable of a place to live. There isnt a conspiracy, it just isnt as desirable. If the current portion of the beltline continues to gain momentum, then the money will continue to move south.

[bfarley30]

Ok, wasn't getting personal but just stating facts.

First, knowing where I own property means nothing but if you must know it is below I-20. The fact is that I don't or will never live in Cobb. I've been all over the south side being that I have family that lives below I-20 also. The fact that you say you own "investment" property means nothing as well. You still LIVE IN COBB! If you were truly investing you would live below I-20. Now you seem to come off as some landlord that thinks they are helping the community by putting more rental property on the market for poorer people to live in. Any halfway educated person knows that investing means home ownership, especially in areas that are in need of improvement and redevelopment.

As far as development activity there are a number of plans that will ultimately take shape to improve the areas south of I-20:

http://cascade.patch.com/articles/at...-beecher-hills (Beltline)

http://www.mcphersonredevelopment.com/index.aspx (Fort McPherson)

http://www.arch.gatech.edu/sites/def...Optimized2.pdf (Turner Field)

http://www.atlantaemergingmarkets.com/do/home (Promotion of most south side corridors)

http://www.investatlanta.com/adaInit...redevPlans.jsp (Mainly south of I-20 areas)

http://www.itsmarta.com/TOD-real-estate.aspx (MARTA station development)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerotropolis_Atlanta (Airport city)

Now while most of these are visions there are still plans for the south of I-20 area. I don't think any city redeveloped itself over night. And it takes more than just buying a few houses and fixing them up to rent them out to see real change. So you still are the typical Cobb resident by thinking you are doing something and as you can see Atlanta is NOT just ignoring the southside. But you can't make people develop where they don't want too so if no major developers come they will just sit as plans.

As far as your argument that Cobb is more dense than ATL we need not to go into that. It seems like you are concerned more about comparing neighborhoods and hypothetical situations that will never be true. The fact is there is no city in the south that was built with the density of NYC or Chicago. So, as in most southern cities, there are going to be pockets of density and pockets of suburbia. Buckhead is a prime example. Go to Peachtree Rd and Wieuca Rd and you are at the ends of major density. But drive north on Wieuca Rd maybe a half mile and you are around hugh houses with big lots and suburbia; that's just Atlanta! Hell, that's Cobb too; pockets of density but mostly suburban. But facts are facts as is this fact: Atlanta's density is 4,020/sq mi. Cobb's is at 1,952/sq mi. So no matter how you want to try to change it Atlanta is denser regardless of how many suburban style areas there are. As far as Cumberland goes, be thankful for the Chattahoochee River and THAT being the border for Cobb and not I-285 like most of the other counties because Cumberland is pretty much an extention of ATL's pockets of density and skylines! But again that's irrelevant because the FACT is that Cumberland is in Cobb. So Cumberland will skew density for Cobb and downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, and all the intown areas getting lots of mid rise and high rise density will skew it for ATL.

I love to google map and I really think you need to look at this site: www.dictionary.com. You need to learn the difference between "density" and "developed." Can you honestly say with a straight face that Town Center is denser than Buckhead from the Buckhead Atlanta project to Phipps Plaza? Can you say it is even more developed? While you can argue that the NW Atlanta area (Mt Pharan to West Wesley area) is definitely not dense the other more dense areas make up for it. So you are either really an ATL hater or blind.

Now, lets get back to our main argument MARTA. As far as who works in Cobb versus other couties please take a look at this:

http://explorer.dol.state.ga.us/mis/...nties/cobb.pdf

http://explorer.dol.state.ga.us/mis/...ies/fulton.pdf

(Commuting Patters pg 3 of 9 for both)

Now I couldn't find anything specifically on Atlanta as you can see there are far more people coming into Fulton than Cobb (297,946 Cobb to 717,577 Fulton). As far as MARTA's routes being cut and fares being raise you can thank the recession for that. Funny how CCT did the same thing though. It's also funny on why CCT would need to have fares the same as MARTA even though they are funded by their county AND state and don't have restrictions on how they can spend their money and is no where near the size of MARTA.

As far as rolling stock, light rail is a bad option for Cobb. So you don't want to call MARTA rail hybrid, which it is, that's fine. Let's call it commuter. What Cobb needs is COMMUTER rail to bring people in and out of the city. Light rail is even worse than a hybrid (sorry, commuter) because stops are closer together and trains move much slower. Also, trains will run along with traffic versus completely separate, which is the hole point of fixing traffic. We don't need to fight with cars, trucks, buses, AND trains!! How stupid!! As far as MARTA not being a people mover I have plenty of times taken the train from downtown to Midtown and vice versa. While this isn't NYC, I've seen it done lots of times within the areas of ATL that are dense. But I will say that the Beltline is much more of a people mover and because of Atlanta's lack of density would probably do much better with light rail versus heavy rail. That makes sense intown. Coming from Gwinnett or Cobb on light rail, that's dumb. Having both now gives you the option to "commute" into the city and have rail to move the people once they are in the city versus just bus. Oh but wait the Beltline isn't regional per the 'burbs... smh.

By the way, Washington DC is STILL expanding their HEAVY rail into its suburbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_(WMATA)

As you can see in the picture, Tysons Corner is similar to Cumberland. I guess the difference is DC's suburbs understand the importance of transit where ATL's don't. To scared of the people you are "investing" in on the southside of I-20 may take the train out there, rob y'all, then come back to their home!!

There is actually plans for a light rail in DC which would connect the ends of the northern stations of each heavy rail line, something similar to what could be done with the top of I-285 from Cumberland to Doraville.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Line_(Maryland)

One thing I think we KINDA agree on is having two systems. I personally think MARTA should run service for the big 5 (Fulton, Dekalb, Gwinnett, Cobb, and Clayton) and other counties where service may be needed, which would be local bus, limited stop bus, bus rapid transit along major streets, para transit, heavy rail, and streetcar/lightrail transit. I think Xpress should be the provider for regional express (non stop) bus service and commuter rail for the rest of the metro area. See we kinda agreed!

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by bfarley30

And until we get MARTA in all of the "Big 5 Counties" in the metro area it will continue to be car dependent and full of traffic in areas like Cobb.

I'm a little late to this conversation but i think this is a chicken and egg argument. Marta wont be expanded till people scream from the hills for it. People wont scream for the hills for it cause its not convenient enough. It wont be convenient enough till either population growth destroys our ability to move around in cars or Marta expands to the big 5 counties. And in my opinion Marta cant be taken seriously as a major transit system till it reaches the big 5.

And as for the topic of the original post you can build walkable villages but that doesn't negate the fact that outside the perimeter these villages are just villages/neighborhoods unless the county they are in accepts some responsibility and ties them together with public transit and or zoning that forces the villages to be beside each other.

[Inman Parker]

I disagree. In my opinion, transit needs to be done on a micro (intown) level before the macro (the metro area) level will accept it. Something as simple as a line from Highland/poncey highland area on north to the westside (through GA tech) would be a nice first step. Above all, the biggest issue with MARTA is that it doesnt go where people want to go. It doesnt do a lot of good to bring people in from the metro area on a train if they cant get where they want to go once they are here.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by Inman Parker

I disagree. In my opinion, transit needs to be done on a micro (intown) level before the macro (the metro area) level will accept it. Something as simple as a line from Highland/poncey highland area on north to the westside (through GA tech) would be a nice first step. Above all, the biggest issue with MARTA is that it doesnt go where people want to go. It doesnt do a lot of good to bring people in from the metro area on a train if they cant get where they want to go once they are here.

but don't the buses go almost everywhere except their schedules suck traffic can sometimes cause a bus to be really late and most people hate taking the bus

[bfarley30]

Originally Posted by Inman Parker

I disagree. In my opinion, transit needs to be done on a micro (intown) level before the macro (the metro area) level will accept it. Something as simple as a line from Highland/poncey highland area on north to the westside (through GA tech) would be a nice first step. Above all, the biggest issue with MARTA is that it doesnt go where people want to go. It doesnt do a lot of good to bring people in from the metro area on a train if they cant get where they want to go once they are here.

I agree. I really feel like Fulton and Dekalb need to focus on more rail options within the 2 counties. I personally like the I-20 heavy rail extention but I feel the BRT portion would do better as heavy rail too. It would create a Turner field extention from Garnett and could run to Stonecrest alone with the Blue line extention. If that was the case you would have a kind of "express" option along I-20 and local using the existing Blue line. There would be no complaining in South Dekalb then.

I'm also for a NW extention to Cumberland of heavy rail (yeah I know that's Cobb but the area really needs rail) along with a heavy rail extention from Armour Yard (as a transfer style infill station) to Emory/CDC and then to Tucker (basically making the Turner/I-20 line and the Emory/Tucker line one line).

Extending the Blue line west to Fulton Ind. Blvd and the Green line north from Bankhead to Huff Rd and east to Clarkston and Stone Mtn. Add a BRT or light rail for I-285 from Cumberland to Doraville and light rail or streetcars for the Beltline and the MARTA service area would be pretty saturated with rail.

Even adding streetcars from Howell Mill down 14th/17th Streets through Atlantic Station and Midtown to Piedmont park would be great. Maybe a streetcar from King Memorial to a new Turner Field station to Grant Park. This would also make for shorter bus routes which could be more direct in service and more frequent in service. Clayton is seem ready to join within the next 2 or 3 years and Gwinnett in the next 5 years. Cobb... I don't know but I think they'll jump just because the other Big counties are getting on board or be left in the dust.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Atlanta's density is 4,020/sq mi. Cobb's is at 1,952/sq mi.

We're talking about Smyrna, which is 3,200/sq mi. You suddenly change the conversation to Cobb, which includes Due West and North Cobb and Chattahoochee Plantation. Should we throw in South Fulton and OTP Cascade / Niskey Lake and Camp Creek Parkway areas into the discussion? The fact of the matter is that we're talking about more than pockets, we're talking about at least half of Atlanta being less densely populated than Smyrna. It doesn't stop there. Marietta as well for that matter which is almost as densely populated as Smyrna even though a good chunk of Marietta is in the sparsely populated Kennessaw Mtn area, making the core part of Marietta even more dense. If you take Cumberland, Vinings, Smyrna and Marietta plus the unincorporated areas in-between, you get an area almost the size of Atlanta and more densely populated.

Face it, the cities just north of the upper perimeter have most of the metro's population. Not Atlanta.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Now you seem to come off as some landlord that thinks they are helping the community by putting more rental property on the market for poorer people to live in. Any halfway educated person knows that investing means home ownership, especially in areas that are in need of improvement and redevelopment.

Sure, buying a vacant property that was vandalized and caught fire and was falling apart, and putting over $60k into it to make it gorgeous and fully usable is not helping the community, right? Homeownership is much less important than getting all properties FULLY OCCUPIED. It doesn't matter if it is renters or homeowners, because either is better than vacant properties. Sure, if you had to choose, home ownership is better, but the first thing is just getting an employed person into every home, clear out the vagrants and squatters who are going around breaking into properties to steal copper, etc and keeping home values down because they can't even be kept fixed up without being broken into between owners or renters.

Originally Posted by Inman Parker

I have worked in Smyrna for over 5 years and I wouldnt call it walkable at all (or dense). Honestly, I dont even know where to start with that rant.

3200 people per square mile. It is one of the most densely populated parts of the metro area and more densely populated than most of Atlanta. The 4,020 people per square mile in Atlanta also factors in highrise residential districts which skew the rest of the city to actually be in most case less densely populated than Smyrna, believe it or not. Especially most of Buckhead ignoring Lenox, ignoring the Peachtree Street and Lindbergh cooridors. However, there are parts of West Atlanta that are also low in density. In fact, when you go from Western Atlanta to Cobb County, population density jumps almost immediately.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Cumberland is pretty much an extention of ATL's pockets of density and skylines!

Cumberland developed because of the I-75/I-285 interchange and highway traffic mostly along the perimeter, and traffic between employment centers and population centers in the metro area (not just Atlanta). Also, believe it or not, most of Cobb County (such as East Cobb) was metro Marietta, not metro Atlanta, when it was almost completely developed. Then, as a result of "white flight", Metro Atlanta engulfed the already present metro area of Cobb County. Smyrna is the rare exception as it was a very small city until traffic between Marietta and Atlanta, so you could say both cities caused Smyrna to spring up and not just Marietta or Atlanta. Cumberland, however, took a lot more than just Marietta and Atlanta and also the first CID in the state.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

So you are either really an ATL hater or blind.

No, I just dislike hearing self-righteous ITPers, who don't know what they are talking about, designate "city" and "suburban" by an arbitrary highway loop that isn't a perfect circle, ignoring development patterns, statistics, and facts.

Well, that's my frustration speaking, but my problem is that ITPers view the metro from an Atlanta perspective, when the metro is just a lot more de-centralized than that. Rail has to reflect that. It's not, "start in Atlanta and feed out" but instead, "start in major employment/population centers and fan out". So you can't solve the transit problem by looking at Gwinnett County and Cobb County and Clayton County as extensions of Atlanta's Rail to serve the Atlanta people. It needs to be built to serve the Cobb and Gwinnet County people, which means building up a light rail infrastructure there first before extending it to Atlanta (with the exception of Cumberland needing something much sooner)

Originally Posted by Pessimistic Observer

And as for the topic of the original post you can build walkable villages but that doesn't negate the fact that outside the perimeter these villages are just villages/neighborhoods unless the county they are in accepts some responsibility and ties them together with public transit and or zoning that forces the villages to be beside each other.

Cobb has CCT for transit tying those areas together, and almost all mixed-use and walkable areas are CCT accessible.

Only Cumberland needs a direct connection to heavy rail in my opinion (but likely only to get light rail short-term). The rest in Cobb County should be streetcars and light rail where the volume or economic development necessitates something better than busses.

E.g. in Smyrna, I see a light rail down Cobb Parkway, South Cobb Drive, and Windy Hill as something that would serve the city of Smyrna nicely without having to get into heavy rail.

Originally Posted by Inman Parker

I disagree. In my opinion, transit needs to be done on a micro (intown) level before the macro (the metro area) level will accept it. Something as simple as a line from Highland/poncey highland area on north to the westside (through GA tech) would be a nice first step. Above all, the biggest issue with MARTA is that it doesnt go where people want to go. It doesnt do a lot of good to bring people in from the metro area on a train if they cant get where they want to go once they are here.

I agree with you. MARTA is heavy rail and makes a good trunk but you need to extend it with light rail with the focus on local circulators that feed into the MARTA backbone. Busses to heavy rail isn't good enough. Light rail is important. It's the same reason I think Smyrna (and the rest of CCT) would be better served with streetcars and light rail than extending the MARTA backbone. Cumberland is the rare exception that needs a tight connection into midtown and the airport to remain competitive.


The problem I see with a rail extension to Cumberland along I-75 is it has to get through the Paces neighborhood of Buckhead first. I don't think they will let it through. It may have to go up through the freight yard along Marietta Blvd, or I-285.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Cobb... I don't know but I think they'll jump just because the other Big counties are getting on board or be left in the dust.

You just don't get it :-) It's not about "joining up" because of peer pressure but about proper selection of strategy before just throwing money to the wind. MARTA's rail is heavy rail. It makes a nice trunk but is very very expensive and inappropriate for building a full network. It make a good backbone and really doesn't need to grow much more in length for a long time. Part of MARTA's problem is that it is not connected to light rail to feed it, just bus routes which are getting cut a little more year after year. So we need the light rail networks, and that connected to MARTA. It'd not only be a lot cheaper and spur economic development along the LR cooridors, but it'd feed MARTA and increase MARTA's ridership as well.

Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton and even North Fulton need their own light rail network to upgrade crowded bus routes. Dekalb just happens to be close enough to the Atlanta trunk that it's an exception. You can't use what's happening in Dekalb as a model. It can't be looked at as build in Atlanta and fan out for the rest of the metro area. It is build in Cobb and Gwinnett and Clayton then connect to Atlanta. Cumberland always being the weird exception that needs rail to Atlanta ASAP but will likely only get light rail to the Perimeter area MARTA station. Clayton will probably be last to build up their transit system because Clayton is hurting for money. Cobb is fiscally conservative and Gwinnett has a lot of nimbys still. Each county has their challenges but I think it's different in each case.

If things are done stupidly, Cobb could just sit it out, watch other counties go bankrupt and then learn from their mistakes and do it right. But I think the smarter approach is that there is a regional approach where everyone is sensible about what is truly needed and not over-engineering the whole thing. Part of that is realizing the metro area isn't all about commuting to Atlanta but much more spread out and de-centralized as I've said many many times.

In fact, as long as proposed referendums are so Atlanta-focused, they will continue to be voted down by the majority of people that don't live in Atlanta.

[bfarley30]

Originally Posted by netdragon

We're talking about Smyrna, which is 3,200/sq mi. You suddenly change the conversation to Cobb... If you take Cumberland, Vinings, Smyrna and Marietta plus the unincorporated areas in-between, you get an area almost the size of Atlanta and more densely populated.

Atlanta 4020 sq mi
Smyrna 3200 sq mi
Vinings 2900 sq mi
Marietta 2600 sq mi
Cumberland (wasn't able to find info because most sites stated there are no "official" boundaries and cause Cumberland is not a separate city... infact it TECHNICALLY is a part of Atlanta! Check the addresses for businesses in the district.)

The point is that Atlanta is higher AND that is including the less dense areas unlike yourself who points out only the dense areas and compares them to ATL as a whole, and they are STILL NOT DENSER!

Originally Posted by netdragon

Sure, buying a vacant property that was vandalized and caught fire and was falling apart, and putting over $60k into it to make it gorgeous and fully usable is not helping the community, right? Homeownership is much less important than getting all properties FULLY OCCUPIED. It doesn't matter if it is renters or homeowners, because either is better than vacant properties.

Tell that to the people who are in affluent areas of the metro area. See if they want a bunch of renters in their areas. Fixing up a house for someone to just come rent is ultimate will not change the area because most renters aren't going to take care of the property like someone who owns AND lives in the property. That's why a lot of the properties are vacant in the first place; too many rental properties and not enough people investing and staying in the areas.

Originally Posted by netdragon

3200 people per square mile. It is one of the most densely populated parts of the metro area and more densely populated than most of Atlanta. The 4,020 people per square mile in Atlanta also factors in highrise residential districts which skew the rest of the city to actually be in most case less densely populated than Smyrna, believe it or not. Especially most of Buckhead ignoring Lenox, ignoring the Peachtree Street and Lindbergh cooridors. However, there are parts of West Atlanta that are also low in density. In fact, when you go from Western Atlanta to Cobb County, population density jumps almost immediately.

Again, you are taking what you want and comparing it versus comparing what is there. Of course the high rise districts are going to be considered because they are in ATL. That is not skewing that is just how ATL is built. Yeah there are some really dense areas (Buckhead for example) and some really non dense areas. So do we just take out the dense areas and say that is the true make up of ATL? That makes no sense doing that. Even your comparison of West ATL and going into Cobb county; it's made up the same way as the rest of ATL with pockets of density. I agree there are probably some areas of ATL that are less dense than areas in Cobb or Gwinnett but the fact is that ATL as a WHOLE is more dense based on the numbers aka the facts that you want so much.

Originally Posted by netdragon

Cumberland developed because of the I-75/I-285 interchange and highway traffic mostly along the perimeter, and traffic between employment centers and population centers in the metro area (not just Atlanta). Also, believe it or not, most of Cobb County (such as East Cobb) was metro Marietta, not metro Atlanta, when it was almost completely developed.

Metro Marietta?! That is too funny. OTPers will do anything to separate themselves from ATL. That's like going to NYC and saying there is a metro Yonkers or a metro Newark area WITHIN the metro NYC area. That has to be the funniest thing I've heard in about 2 weeks. Per wikipedia "As of the 2010 census, the city had a total population of 56,579, making it one of metro Atlanta's largest suburbs." Key words it is METRO ATLANTA'S largest SUBURBS!!

Originally Posted by netdragon

No, I just dislike hearing self-righteous ITPers, who don't know what they are talking about, designate "city" and "suburban" by an arbitrary highway loop that isn't a perfect circle, ignoring development patterns, statistics, and facts.

Well, that's my frustration speaking, but my problem is that ITPers view the metro from an Atlanta perspective, when the metro is just a lot more de-centralized than that. Rail has to reflect that. It's not, "start in Atlanta and feed out" but instead, "start in major employment/population centers and fan out". So you can't solve the transit problem by looking at Gwinnett County and Cobb County and Clayton County as extensions of Atlanta's Rail to serve the Atlanta people. It needs to be built to serve the Cobb and Gwinnet County people, which means building up a light rail infrastructure there first before extending it to Atlanta (with the exception of Cumberland needing something much sooner).

While there are a number of employment centers across the metro area to not have transit service the primary core makes no sense. You are basically saying build rail that connects with nothing in Cobb and Gwinnett and then connect to ATL. Again this the the metro ATLANTA region. What sense would having a train that serves JUST Cobb or just Gwinnett? Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton ARE extensions of ATL and rail service should also act as such. Now am I saying there should never be rail that connects Cobb and Gwinnett without coming downtown, no. But to start with that because most of the 'burbs want nothing to do with ATL would be stupid and a waste of money. Hence why there are no plans for such a rail system.

Originally Posted by netdragon

Only Cumberland needs a direct connection to heavy rail in my opinion (but likely only to get light rail short-term). The rest in Cobb County should be streetcars and light rail where the volume or economic development necessitates something better than busses.

E.g. in Smyrna, I see a light rail down Cobb Parkway, South Cobb Drive, and Windy Hill as something that would serve the city of Smyrna nicely without having to get into heavy rail.

While I completely agree that Cumberland needs heavy rail I think it should be extended past their to Kennesaw State/Town Center area. We have the luxury of having a heavy rail system that acts as a hybrid. I also agree major cross town arteries should be served by streetcar or bus rapid transit. But as much as you state areas in Cobb are so dense you would think you would want heavy rail criss crossing the county!

Originally Posted by netdragon

I agree with you. MARTA is heavy rail and makes a good trunk but you need to extend it with light rail with the focus on local circulators that feed into the MARTA backbone. Busses to heavy rail isn't good enough. Light rail is important. It's the same reason I think Smyrna (and the rest of CCT) would be better served with streetcars and light rail than extending the MARTA backbone. Cumberland is the rare exception that needs a tight connection into midtown and the airport to remain competitive.


The problem I see with a rail extension to Cumberland along I-75 is it has to get through the Paces neighborhood of Buckhead first. I don't think they will let it through. It may have to go up through the freight yard along Marietta Blvd, or I-285.

I guess my question is why not just extend the heavy rail along Cobb Pkwy? Why create a transfer situation to get into the city? If Cumberland needs that "tight connection" you state why wouldn't Marietta or the rest of Cobb?

Originally Posted by netdragon

You just don't get it :-) It's not about "joining up" because of peer pressure but about proper selection of strategy before just throwing money to the wind. MARTA's rail is heavy rail. It makes a nice trunk but is very very expensive and inappropriate for building a full network. It make a good backbone and really doesn't need to grow much more in length for a long time. Part of MARTA's problem is that it is not connected to light rail to feed it, just bus routes which are getting cut a little more year after year. So we need the light rail networks, and that connected to MARTA. It'd not only be a lot cheaper and spur economic development along the LR cooridors, but it'd feed MARTA and increase MARTA's ridership as well.

I don't think it should be a peer pressure thing either. I agree MARTA's rail is the "trunk" rail. That's why it should be extended up Cobb Pkwy to Town Center. Going east to west in Cobb I say streetcar/BRT/LR all the way. But again when you think of density (as you say Cobb has) you think of heavy rail. I'm definitely not for E/W heavy rail in Cobb though.

Originally Posted by netdragon

If things are done stupidly, Cobb could just sit it out, watch other counties go bankrupt and then learn from their mistakes and do it right. But I think the smarter approach is that there is a regional approach where everyone is sensible about what is truly needed and not over-engineering the whole thing. Part of that is realizing the metro area isn't all about commuting to Atlanta but much more spread out and de-centralized as I've said many many times.

In fact, as long as proposed referendums are so Atlanta-focused, they will continue to be voted down by the majority of people that don't live in Atlanta.

At one point you are talking Cobb needs to build there own but here you are asking for a regional concept. Which one? The problem is that there are folks that don't recognize that ATL is still the core and heart of the region and will always be that. While there definitely be plans on connecting one suburb to another it still starts with ATL. Even still if we looked at the past T-SPLOST most of the projects were actually not in ATL. The issue was the burbs didn't want to pay for the ones in ATL and ATL didn't want to pay for those in the burbs. Not regional thinking by both when it came to that.

[Chris Creech]

Originally Posted by netdragon

Cobb has CCT for transit tying those areas together, and almost all mixed-use and walkable areas are CCT accessible.

Just from a personal perspective, I work in Vinings at Home Depot headquarters and it used to be such an easy commute for me. I'd drive to Inman Park, leave my truck or motorbike, take the train in, then out to Arts Center to catch the Cobb Express buses to Cumberland, then a short bus ride to Home Depot.

A while back Cobb did a major scale back on routes, and eliminated many evenly well used routes. It was obvious in the hearings that the Cobb leadership had no interest at all in becoming an urban, inclusive, transit-friendly area. They said as much.

When you have a major F500 company like Home Depot, which thousands of employees (many of which are foreign nationals in IT positions - who now have to walk from Cumberland mall) when the county sees no need to service such a big job center and corporate client - then something is wrong.

[netdragon]

Sorry if this ends up messed up. I almost lost everything below because I wasn't logged in and after I logged in, I was getting errors when resending the submission. I rescued it by opening Fiddler 2 and clicking resend to get the POST data. I had to reconstruct the POST data manually and paste it in.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Cumberland is not a separate city... infact it TECHNICALLY is a part of Atlanta! Check the addresses for businesses in the district.)

Since when does a post office decide municipal boundaries? No, Cumberland is definitely Cobb County and not in Atlanta city limits, officially and technically. Vinings has an Atlanta address too, and is also Cobb County. The post office just used I-285 as a cut off. Anything North is a Smyrna address and serviced by the Smyrna P.O, anything South is an Atlanta address and not serviced by the Smyrna post office.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

That's why a lot of the properties are vacant in the first place; too many rental properties and not enough people investing and staying in the areas.

Actually, that's not quite the history. The main reason why there are so many vacancies right now is mortgage fraud by greedy people trying to make a quick buck, and greedy banks abuse of the subprime market. Many RENTERS were kicked out of their house by banks, leaving the property vacant.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Yeah there are some really dense areas (Buckhead for example) and some really non dense areas.

Buckhead is actually the sparsest part of Atlanta, and the most suburban part of Atlanta, and typically sparser than Cobb County. It's the main thing I'm talking about actually. There's only a small portion of it in Lindergh and along Peachtree Street and the Lenox area that's dense. The rest has very large lots, especially compared to South and East Cobb (aside from Vinings). Look at Paces and Ridgewood, or Tuxedo Park for instance. Some houses have multi-acre lots. That's typical Buckhead. When people say "Buckhead" They seem to be talking about Lenox, but that's only a small part.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

So do we just take out the dense areas and say that is the true make up of ATL? That makes no sense doing that.

...

Even your comparison of West ATL and going into Cobb county; it's made up the same way as the rest of ATL with pockets of density. I agree there are probably some areas of ATL that are less dense than areas in Cobb or Gwinnett but the fact is that ATL as a WHOLE is more dense based on the numbers aka the facts that you want so much.

New Britain, CT (a Hartford suburb) has 5,360 people per square mile. So I'm sorry, Atlanta is just not urban at all from a New Britain, CT perspective. Now, just stare at the picture. Sorry, Atlanta, you just are not a real city, since this little CT town is more densely populated. Should I mention that New Britain has no passenger rail stops at all (there is an Amtrak that does not stop there )?


Oh, while we are at it, sleepy New London, CT, a city of 27,600 people, is also more densely populated than Atlanta. Sorry Atlanta, you lose again to a small town. I guess we shouldn't treat Peachtree St special and maybe consider that the density there is probably a LOT higher than these two towns? But you can't have it both ways. You either need to admit that most of Atlanta is suburban with a few dense districts mixed in that heavily skew density numbers, or just admit defeat to these small towns since they are apparently nothing in Atlanta measures up to them. Which is it?

And for sure to Hartford, CT which has twice as many people per square mile. Hartford is much more the real city than Atlanta, isn't it?

You see how silly this is saying that Atlanta is more urban because it's overall density is higher? I think it's safer to admit that there are parts of Atlanta that are much more dense than Smyrna, then most of the rest of it isn't.

We could stick 5 footprints of Smyrna into Buckhead, Smyrna would be more densely populated, so long as we didn't touch Peachtree Rd.

The Southern part of the metro is more dense ITP. It's the exact reverse in the North. It's more dense OTP.



You know, you and a lot of people in Atlanta falsely complain that the metro area doesn't admit that Atlanta is the core. But have you ever thought about the fact that you may not want to admit that Atlanta is just about as suburban in character for the most part as the rest of the inner metro region, with a few districts that go very vertical mixed in being the exception rather than the norm?

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Metro Marietta?! That is too funny. OTPers will do anything to separate themselves from ATL.

No, it's called history. Atlanta didn't engulf Marietta until approximately the 70s.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

That's like going to NYC and saying there is a metro Yonkers or a metro Newark area WITHIN the metro NYC area.

Really, that's not a good analogy. Manhatten was there first. It was bought from the Manhatten indians, all the way up to Wall Street and was the very first thing settled anywhere around New York city. Marietta was there first, when what you call Atlanta now was a bunch of plantations. Even Vinings was there first. So, not the same thing at all.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

While there are a number of employment centers across the metro area to not have transit service the primary core makes no sense. You are basically saying build rail that connects with nothing in Cobb and Gwinnett and then connect to ATL.

You need to study traffic patterns for the North metro. Very little of the traffic is commuting into Atlanta. Most is commuting between North metro communities and North metro activity centers. Over 60% of the people living in Cobb WORK in COBB. And more commute to the Perimeter Center and Windward area than downtown. Go to any part of the North metro area, and you see the same pattern, most traffic is between North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinnett than into Atlanta.

Now don't get me wrong, Atlanta has three of the largest employment centers in the metro. However, they are limited. Other than the airport, the rest of the major ones are in the North metro: Town Center, Cumberland, Marietta, Windward, Perimeter Center, Norcross. Based on traffic patterns, it would do much more to hook these up than hook them up to Atlanta.

If you were to plot the "center of employment" for the metro area, in fact, that point would end up somewhere between Lenox and Perimeter Center.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Again this the the metro ATLANTA region.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton ARE extensions of ATL and rail service should also act as such.

And before continuing on that above, which I'll do now, I wanted to include a quote from you which shows the confusion a lot of people have. The "name" the region has does absolutely NOT have anything to do with where the traffic patterns are for commuters. Most absolutely do not commute through Atlanta, period. That's in fact why it's so much easier to cut through Atlanta to get from Cobb to Gwinnett than to go along the I-285 perimeter. Ever noticed that? :-)

Originally Posted by bfarley30

What sense would having a train that serves JUST Cobb or just Gwinnett?

Because it gets people to their jobs, not service some ideological but factually incorrect view about where the metro area's employment is centered. Building a rail from Cobb to midtown Atlanta isn't going to get most Cobb residents to their jobs. Sure, it may get them to the game once a year, or their nightclub or favorite restaurant, but not going to get them to work. I work downtown, but I'm a minority. Most people need mobility within the North metro, not to Atlanta.

Cobb has a lot different challenge than Atlanta. Most of Atlanta's population and employment is along the MARTA lines or within walking distance/ short bus shuttle to them. Cobb has most of its employment along Cobb Parkway, Windy Hill, and Roswell Rd, then a few other employment zones on E/W, Austell Rd, Marietta Square and Canton Rd. You could link up all these employment zones in Cobb with transit to each other, like Atlanta did, and then people would have no way to get to them. You could feed them with bus routes which already exist, and still the same problem. You'd have to do things a little different than in Atlanta. You'd have to realize that when most people in Cobb leave their homes, they are going to be in their cars (or on bicycles perhaps as an alternative someday for areas like Smyrna with lots of bike trails). So what you have to do is put transit stops with PARKING GARAGES (like the Mount Vernon / Abernathy station in the Perimeter) so that they can drive their cars a mile and park them and catch the train. You solve that problem, and then you've also solved the problem for the small minority of people that commute into Atlanta.

Until then, your simply talking about economic development. And yes, connecting Cumberland to central Atlanta or the airport would be an economic development boon for Cumberland. It'd probably start to look like Lenox pretty quickly. But when the small number of people that commute to Atlanta leave their homes in their cars like I mentioned before from elsewhere in Cobb, and they get to where the transit station is in Cumberland, they would have already braved the worst traffic and are just going to drive all the way in. What's quite ironic is that if there were a rail from Cumberland to Perimeter Center, people probably would get onto it in Cumberland simply because I-285 traffic is so horrible.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Now am I saying there should never be rail that connects Cobb and Gwinnett without coming downtown, no. But to start with that because most of the 'burbs want nothing to do with ATL would be stupid and a waste of money. Hence why there are no plans for such a rail system.

This is a naive view of things and why people just can't get anything done. They don't realize the main issues the North metro people are facing and are focused on Atlanta economic development versus servicing our real needs to get to where we work.

That is the problem with the metro area. We need cross-town transit because of how decentralized it is and that's going to be very expensive and that's why no one wants to do it, because they are fiscally conservative.

Connecting into Atlanta is a waste from a commuting perspective since it doesn't solve the problem. So that's seen as "pork belly" by the fiscal conservatives as well.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

While I completely agree that Cumberland needs heavy rail I think it should be extended past their to Kennesaw State/Town Center area.

It should probably connect Cumberland and Town Center first with LRT to service people who actually live and work in Cobb, especially many of the people living in Cobb who work along Cobb Parkway who could probably use an alternative to needing to own a car.

As mentioned, connecting Cumberland to Atlanta (or the airport) would be a much-needed economic development boon, not something that would get people to work.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

We have the luxury of having a heavy rail system that acts as a hybrid.

It's heavy rail, like a subway. It doesn't even have an express so it's a big-time bottleneck.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

I also agree major cross town arteries should be served by streetcar or bus rapid transit. But as much as you state areas in Cobb are so dense you would think you would want heavy rail criss crossing the county!

Cobb Parkway needs light rail right now to get people from stripmall to small office to stripmall essentially but will probably eventually need an express between Town Center and Cumberland.

But your tongue in cheek comment ignores the fact that only light rail would be needed to connect to Perimeter Center and Cumberland and Cumberland and Arts center. There just wouldn't be that many passengers per train to warrant heavy rail.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

I guess my question is why not just extend the heavy rail along Cobb Pkwy?

Because there wouldn't be enough ridership to warrant it. You need a high density of stops to get people to all the stripmalls and offices. Not a rail that carries a lot of people. More stops, smaller trains.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Why create a transfer situation to get into the city? If Cumberland needs that "tight connection" you state why wouldn't Marietta or the rest of Cobb?

Cumberland (and maybe Town Center someday) needs it for a whole different reason. It needs it for an economic development perspective, simply because it has "tapped out" and is going vertical. It needs it because MARTA is the trunk from the perspective of a business traveler going to some place like the Galleria or Circle 75.

The rest of Cobb County's employment centers still have room to grow, aren't going vertical as much, and just need ways to get people who work in those areas, and they are typically already in Cobb or very close by.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

I don't think it should be a peer pressure thing either. I agree MARTA's rail is the "trunk" rail. That's why it should be extended up Cobb Pkwy to Town Center.

What would actually work best for economic development is an express from Town Center to Cumberland, then using Cobb Parkway for local light rail with lots of stops, for local workers.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

Going east to west in Cobb I say streetcar/BRT/LR all the way. But again when you think of density (as you say Cobb has) you think of heavy rail.

No, you have it all confused. :-) heavy rail is for heavily concentrated density, like a strip, not for something that is pretty consistently moderate density throughout. Lightrail is for lower ridership and typically is the next logical step up from a bus. As I mentioned, many times, Atlanta has a highly dense Peachtree Street corridor (metropolitan parkway/Lee Rd as well) then the rest is either low (Paces, etc) or moderate density (West End, Peoplestown, Grant Park, etc). It's good that Atlanta even has an E-W heavy rail to be ready for the future, but the only part that really is high density enough to even warrant it right now is the Peacthree St cooridor. In fact, along the E-W (if you've ever noticed) MARTA only typically has a 1-2 cars per train. That's light rail running on a heavy rail track.

The Cobb Parkway cooridor will probably need heavy rail someday (within next 50 years) simply because it will be fed by those E-W bus and light rail, but it can't be along Cobb Parkway unless built elevated or below ground augmenting an at-grade light rail simply because of the density of stops that will be along Cobb Parkway.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

At one point you are talking Cobb needs to build there own but here you are asking for a regional concept. Which one?

You don't get it. As mentioned above, Cumberland needs a connection for ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. To add to that, it's to COMPETE with Lenox, etc. To get the rest of Cobb County to work, the county could get along just fine with only regional connections and no connections to Atlanta.

Originally Posted by bfarley30

The problem is that there are folks that don't recognize that ATL is still the core and heart of the region

Not where most people work.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by Chris Creech

Just from a personal perspective, I work in Vinings at Home Depot headquarters and it used to be such an easy commute for me. I'd drive to Inman Park, leave my truck or motorbike, take the train in, then out to Arts Center to catch the Cobb Express buses to Cumberland, then a short bus ride to Home Depot.

A while back Cobb did a major scale back on routes, and eliminated many evenly well used routes. It was obvious in the hearings that the Cobb leadership had no interest at all in becoming an urban, inclusive, transit-friendly area. They said as much.

When you have a major F500 company like Home Depot, which thousands of employees (many of which are foreign nationals in IT positions - who now have to walk from Cumberland mall) when the county sees no need to service such a big job center and corporate client - then something is wrong.

I would have to agree with you. I'm a little ticked off at the county leadership right now for ignoring transit and also wanting to turn S. Cobb Dr into a 6 lane highway basically splitting Smyrna in half for both culture and pedestrians/bikes. You have to keep in mind that the leadership includes people from areas like Chattahoochee Plantation, North Cobb, East Cobb and Due West as well, which are very conservative areas. Some of them still think the solution to everything is to lay more tar.

But there are idiots like that in the state of GA too, and obviously that can not reflect much on Atlanta.