Salt Lake City | Transit and Airport Developments

[hammersklavier]

It's networks like this one that makes me wish Philadelphians would sit up and take notice that our system SUCKS! Compliments on Utah on being ahead of the game. If the transit infrastructure expands along with city size, I think it's hardly a brash prediction on my part that the Salt Lake region is a rising Western urban center and will probably eclipse Los Angeles (whose problems go far beyond transit problems; you can't live where you can't drink--water) sometime in the next fifty years.

P.S. Drew, there is a well-known principle in transit theory why building more roads does not relieve congestion. It's called "triple convergence," and in short, it states why building more roads makes roads more congested. You might want to Google it sometime.

[MetroFanatic]

Originally Posted by wrendog

http://www.apta.com/research/stats/r...nts/08q3lr.pdf

According to the APTA, there was nearly a 30% increase of TRAX ridership in the 3rd quarter and another 10% increase in the 4th quarter (http://www.apta.com/research/stats/r...nts/08q4lr.pdf). Man! Those riders are just jumping off the train and into their cars at an alarming rate!

[Cirrus]

hammersklavier:

1. SLC deserves a lot of credit for expanding its system, but let's not get carried away. It will take them decades to match what Philadelphia already has.

2. I'm not sure you fully appreciate how big LA is. There are some 17 million people living there, versus maybe 2 million in the SLC region. LA is not in any danger of being eclipsed by Salt Lake.

[delts145]

That's more like 2.3 million, but to be sure no metro in No. America will bury Los Angeles anytime soon. Some may compete, and more business friendly metros, particularly Salt Lake City and Denver will siphon off more and more companies and expansions over the next decade from L.A.

If Los Angeles, by the shear volume of it's population, "i.e. political clout" can manuever Washington into paying for mass transit, then Los Angeles should escape a transportation gridlock disaster. Chances are good that a disproportionate share of all of our taxes, will go to keep California afloat, which includes keeping it's masses moving.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Drew Chamberlain

If you want to believe this Garbage go ahead. Let me tell you as a Salt Lake business owner TRaX has been terrible for our city. Salt Lake City is dead. There is no new development associated with mass transit. Just come here and see for yourself. Boarded up buildings and a declining business district. It does us no good at all to tell lies just to appear successful. One of your pictures of "new" development is of Gateway shopping, that is not in downtown and was built 2 years before TRaX was built next to it. TRaX ridership is down 30% (yes thirty) under just 2 years ago. Any successful new development (like Gateway) caters to the 99.1% of us that use a car. Call me if you have any questions at 801-913-4611. And stop misleading us, it reflects on your character.

Thanks,

Drew

I ride TRAX twice every week and can hardly find a seet. It is PACKED when I ride in the morning, then, when I ride home at around 1pm, it is still very busy. Once it hits Gallivan Plaza, every seet is filled on the out-bound Sandy trains. So, Drew, let's see...initial estimates put the projected daily ridership at 15,000...now it's at 57,500/day....that would be 74% above initial projections!! It is the 11th most used light-rail system in the country. I would be surprised to find anyone (besides you, or someone else in the auto industry) who doesn't find TRAX a great success and value investment in Utah rails.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

P.S. Drew, there is a well-known principle in transit theory why building more roads does not relieve congestion. It's called "triple convergence," and in short, it states why building more roads makes roads more congested. You might want to Google it sometime.

Well, it makes sense. If you build more roads, they connect to other existing roads. So just because you build more, those new roads will still dump more traffic onto those already existing, creating massive bottle-necks. For instance, look at down town. You have 10 lanes of traffic comming in and out on 5th and 6th South from the freeway. Those cars come from somewhere - sorounding suburbs. If we build more roads out farther, then more people will be brought into down town, thus creating more stress on roads like 5th and 6th South. More roads may lessen traffic in the areas where those new roads are built, but unless all existing roads expand as new roads are built, you will have region-wide gridlock problems. LA and Phoenix are PERFECT examples.

Drew, you had your day in the sun. The auto companies bought out and dismantled old rail lines across the country over the last century. Now people realize what a mistake that was. Now that gas prices are so volitile and subject to change with little warning, people are switching their modes of transportation in droves. Notice how there is no one else standing with you against building more rails here? Notice how the auto industry is withering away into nothing while cities across our nation are massively over-hauling their rail networks? This is the begining of the end of the auto age. There's no use fighting it.

[T-Mac]

Boy, this Drew guy sure doesn't get around much. For the record, when light rail was first announced I was completely against it. Having seen how well it works, I am completely for it. I have used it to go to U football games and am excited for the airport line.

When you mention a declining business district, what are you looking at. Developments are popping up all around TRAX. Maybe I see something different downtown than he does but it sure looks like construction to me.

This is the heart of the Central Business District. If it were dead, then why are they building a 400,000 square foot building. One Utah Center, Wells Fargo Building, US Bank Building are all very well leased. 222 S Main is 30% leased and its not even done yet. Other companies I have talked with are looking to lease in that building as well. TRAX stop right outside the front door.


TRAX line with development. Lots of new homes right next to the TRAX line. Development continues to pop up all around these lines. Instead of making foolish comments, you need to get out of the car and walk around downtown. It is a very fun place to be and getting better each day. If you want you can even ride TRAX for free around downtown.


There is also a large article in The Enterprise this week about the success of the Brooks Arcade building. How you can work and live in the same location downtown. They have office spaces, condos, coffee shop, credit union, restaurants and now the new home of the Utah AIA. The are getting LEED certified on their space their.

Cars will always be around, but hopefully will be used less and less with the ability to get around in mass transit. As the economy turns around, you will see the transit oriented developments begin again.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Drew Chamberlain

If you want to believe this Garbage go ahead. Let me tell you as a Salt Lake business owner TRaX has been terrible for our city. Salt Lake City is dead. There is no new development associated with mass transit. Just come here and see for yourself. Boarded up buildings and a declining business district. It does us no good at all to tell lies just to appear successful. One of your pictures of "new" development is of Gateway shopping, that is not in downtown and was built 2 years before TRaX was built next to it. TRaX ridership is down 30% (yes thirty) under just 2 years ago. Any successful new development (like Gateway) caters to the 99.1% of us that use a car. Call me if you have any questions at 801-913-4611. And stop misleading us, it reflects on your character.

Thanks,

Drew

Salt Lake City is dead?
TRaX has been terrible?
no new development associated with mass transit?


Do you get out much Drew?

[delts145]

LOL, I couldn't agree more with you guys. I mean, I just returned from a visit to bustling daytime L.A. the other day. Upon my arrival to the Wasatch Front, I made a visit to Downtown Salt Lake. Everywhere I went there were crowds of people and ongoing construction projects. TRAX trains themselves also seemed to be everywhere, and much to the delight of the many convention goers. It was obvious that people loved the passing TRAX, just by looking at there faces, and also the amount of people that were inside riding. This Drew guy has a remarkably selective opinion, LOL. It would seem to be more dillusional than anything!

[delts145]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

Different kind of train coming to TRAX
There is a story on KSL.com about the new Siemens light rail cars that UTA has on order. The story reads as if written to middle school students, and the commentary is so childish that I wanted to beat my head against the wall, but its KSL, so that's what you get. Anyway, nice to at least see a rendering of the new trains in UTA's colors:

.

[Future Mayor]

Sure guys you can prove anything with objectivity and facts to back those statements. It takes someone a lot smarter than most of us to attempt to prove something with false and made up information.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

hammersklavier:

1. SLC deserves a lot of credit for expanding its system, but let's not get carried away. It will take them decades to match what Philadelphia already has.

Actually, it's going to take allot less than decades for the metro Wasatch to match and surpass many of the cities on this continent as far as mass transit. The prospect of the trolley's phenomenon is hitting the Salt Lake Valley portion of the metro in a big way. Yes, billions have and continue to be spent on new heavy commuter and light rail lines. However, the real kicker seems to be developing by way of the return of the Trolley. City/County leaders and the citizens in general are extremely receptive to an extensive trolley system. It is assumed that the first trolley lines should begin construction shortly in the Sugarhouse area. However, civic leaders are so giddy after their recent return from their European Trolley tour, that there is talk and planning of additional lines in various locations to follow suit as soon as physically and financially possible.

I'm not sure that cities such as Phili or many metros for that matter have the fiscal or political will to implement extensive trolley systems like Salt Lake is now enthusiastically embracing. Each group, whether it's Metro developers, residents, or political decision makers see the Trolley as both much more economical to establish and lined with $$$/profit development potential. At the same time, residents and urban planners alike love the seemingly intimate engagement of the Trolley and the village cores that they create.

It has gotten to the point where what would often be a NIMBY situation elsewhere, is a HYIMBY(Hell yes in my backyard) situation here. Recently, even with light rail, cities have even been known to squabble and compete over who gets what TRAX station along lines currently under construction.

[Cirrus]

Philadelphia already has:
3 heavy metrorail lines (a mode SLC isn't even considering)
14 regional commuter rail lines
10 light rail / trolley lines
+ Amtrak service in 3 directions with train headways comparable to commuter rail

What SLC is doing is fantastic. Really. But if you think SLC will have a better transit system than Philadelphia any time soon, then you clearly don't know much about Philadelphia. Getting carried away with homerism isn't going to make anybody like SLC better. Trust me.

And for the record, "HYIMBYism" with regard to transit stations is the norm in many cities with successful transit systems. I'm glad SLC is getting to that point, but if so it only means that SLC is beginning to mature as a transit city; it certainly does not set SLC apart.

Also, I'm not sure about Philadelphia, but there are a lot of cities planning extensive streetcar networks. Again, good on SLC for doing so, but it is not alone.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by Drew Chamberlain

Listen to what you are saying. Do you really believe that building roads does not solve congestion? And why attack me for owning a dealership? I do not attack you for working for UTA. I own a car dealership because I love cars, There is nothing better than getting in one of my convertibles and cruising up the canyon. And if mass transit is so great then why did traffic increase on I-15 when FrontRunner opened and congestion disappeared after Legacy Highway opened? Why is TRaX ridership down 30% and FrontRunner down 40%??? These are fair questions. How about some fair answers.

Drew 801-913-4611 waiting for your call,

I heard auto sales were down 20% on average in UT, and in some places up to 41%.

No wonder you have time to cruise up the canyon.

[Busy Bee]

Why are there 12 axles shown in that rendering. I thought standard NA LRV's had 6 axles?

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Why are there 12 axles shown in that rendering. I thought standard NA LRV's had 6 axles?

I'll admit that drawing is confusing. The Siemen S70 light rail vehicle has 6 axles and 12 wheels.

[lawfin]

Congrat to you guys out there in SLC but to be frank it kind of irritates me quite a bit. I mean SLC is what somewhere around 185K in the city and a little over a million in the metro and lyou get a brand new spanking system........meanwhile we here in Chicago can't get a capital budget and need funding desperately for a system that carries more than half the population of your metro on a daily basis.....if you include Metra with CTA they carry about the population of metro SLC daily

ANd we can't get new lines......irritating

once again SLC congrats....sorry I had to vent

[robhut]

Those new trains look fantastic.
I am so happy for SLC. Way to go.
Hopefully my town, Miami, learned from you.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by lawfin

Congrat to you guys out there in SLC but to be frank it kind of irritates me quite a bit. I mean SLC is what somewhere around 185K in the city and a little over a million in the metro and lyou get a brand new spanking system........meanwhile we here in Chicago can't get a capital budget and need funding desperately for a system that carries more than half the population of your metro on a daily basis.....if you include Metra with CTA they carry about the population of metro SLC daily

ANd we can't get new lines......irritating

once again SLC congrats....sorry I had to vent

Hey lawfin, Salt Lake City is actually three metros in one, with a total of 2.3 million people. I don't know why it's counted the way it is. There's the northern section of Ogden, and the southern section of Provo. It's also one of a handfull of the fastest growing areas in the nation. That said, your point is still valid. I get frustrated with Los Angeles and it's snail's pace with mass transit also.

[DENrising]

I hope the new trains will get here soon, some of the TRAX cars are so loud, inside and out, and the other day I went downtown to grab a bite to eat, it was nice outside, but I chose to take the TRAX from City Center 1st So, to Library, but I tried to get off but was blocked by not 2 but 3 people getting on each with their bikes. So, I missed that stop, then the Transit officer came by and I had no ticket, not needed if you get off at Library. Anyhow, he let me get off at Trolley so I could walk back to work. Also, the train was rather warm, don't think they've yet turned on the ac on those old San Jose models. It was quite a ride, lol!!