DENVER | Transportation Thread

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Close enough to 0 that if I ever live in Denver again (and I plan to) I will never be voting for any bond/borrowing/taxing measure put forth by RTD again. And they aren't alone. I'll never support tax money for a stadium again either (if they can sell the name of the stadium to whatever private interest they want then they can find all private money to build the next one).

At least when I buy a car the car doesn't change to a different model sometime after I drive off the lot which ignores everything I went into the lot looking for in the first place.

How would our rail system be built out then? And yes, the various stadium taxes were more expensive than promised, but would downtown be in the place it is today if the stadiums had been built in the suburbs? And comparing personal financial decisions with complex civic funding, government budgets, or macroeconomic concepts only works in this country because a majority of the populace has no concept of how any of the three works — funding rail was and will never be anything like buying a car, or even financing a car, but the more that this fallacy gets pounded into the American taxpaying public's heads the less likely we are to ever fund projects of any sort that aren't sold on total lies (MONORAIL!) or pushed by small interest groups.

Personally, I would rather pay more for a system at 75% than save that money and get nothing at all, because in the long run that 75% is going to increase my property values and do much more for the city than my savings ever could.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

And comparing personal financial decisions with complex civic funding, government budgets, or macroeconomic concepts only works in this country because a majority of the populace has no concept of how any of the three works — funding rail was and will never be anything like buying a car, or even financing a car

Unless there's a Kutak bond lawyer hiding on here, I am pretty sure I know as much or more about bonding and public finance as anybody on here. It might not be anything like buying a car, but it is a lot like buying a house. And most of us are intelligent enough to fairly evaluate whether something like that was botched.

There is absolutely no evidence that the system RTD is building is going to have any impact on your property values. Talk about naively buying into a myth.

And the question is not whether a proposal will "do something for your city," it's whether that investment will do the most possible good for your city for the money spent. I could build a space elevator downtown, and no doubt, it would do great things for Denver. But I am not sure that'd be the best use of $100 billion. Nor am I sure that the slate of projects RTD has left are the best use of limited transportation funds.

[Octavian]

NW rail. Still doesn't make sense. Building the north line to Longmont also doesn't make sense. If Longmont wanted to withdraw from RTD I wouldn't blame them - might be better for everyone. These numbers are from the current NW Corridor mobility study.

MAPS HERE: http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/nams_21

Northwest Rail –
Westminster/Broomfield Phase
(71st & Lowell to Broomfield) 11 miles
$557M - $681M*
2,100 - 3,400
Best case:
Worst Case:

Northwest Rail – Louisville Phase
(Broomfield to Louisville)
8 miles
$159M - $194M
1,700 - 1,800

Northwest Rail – Boulder Phase
(Louisville to Boulder Junction) 11 miles
$241M - $295M
2,000 - 2,100

Northwest Rail – Longmont Phase
(Boulder Junction to Longmont) 8 miles
$199M - $243M
1,500 - 1,600

North Metro Extension
(SH-7 to Longmont) 19.5 miles
$682M - $834M
840 - 900

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Octavian

North Metro Extension
(SH-7 to Longmont) 19.5 miles
$682M - $834M
840 - 900

Yowzers.

Originally Posted by Octavian

If Longmont wanted to withdraw from RTD I wouldn't blame them - might be better for everyone. T

There is more to RTD than getting a pretty train. Longmont and Boulder get very good bus systems, disproportionate for cities their size - especially Boulder. If they want to take that on themselves, that's fine, but they'll likely end up with less of a system and/or pay just as much for it.

That said, Fort Collins is a decent model of what can be done.

[Octavian]

At least the Fastracks tax Longmont is paying then.

Here's more context on those numbers:
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-c...-rail-will-get

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

most people by percentage will be walking through Union Station, as rail station users do world wide.

I hope that's true, but I am not convinced of it. Why would transit users walk through Union Station? There will not be any actual transit connections there. People getting off the train and going to LoDo will maybe walk through. People catching one of the shuttles will not.

I'm very curious to see how active the old building ends up.

[Cirrus]

Do we have data on daily ridership for RTD bus routes? Someone here must. How many existing bus routes are higher than the NW rail projections? It's one thing to say Colfax is busier, but Colfax is the busiest bus line in the region so that's still pretty impressive. But how does it compare to lesser routes?

My guess is the SKIP has more riders than that, just within Boulder. That would be a compelling talking point, if true. Do Boulderites think it's reasonable to spend a billion dollars on fewer riders than the SKIP?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Do we have data on daily ridership for RTD bus routes? Someone here must. How many existing bus routes are higher than the NW rail projections? It's one thing to say Colfax is busier, but Colfax is the busiest bus line in the region so that's still pretty impressive. But how does it compare to lesser routes?

My guess is the SKIP has more riders than that, just within Boulder. That would be a compelling talking point, if true. Do Boulderites think it's reasonable to spend a billion dollars on fewer riders than the SKIP?

The last ridecheck snapshot I have handy (saved to my phone - no, I'm not a nerd ) is old, January 2011. But at that time the SKIP had 6,700 riders per day. So definitely comparable.

For further perspective, the Boulder-Denver bus was getting the same - about 6,700 per day. That really puts into perspective how abysmal the ridership projections for this rail line are. If I add in the Longmont-Denver route (1,100 per day) and the Boulder-Longmont route (1,500 per day) for a total of 9,300, you're looking at no ridership boost over existing bus service in the exact same corridor.

[bunt_q]

As for lesser routes, I see (still using old numbers):

Alameda: 4,500

South Federal: 4,900; North Federal: 6,800 (Combined would be a very respectable 11,700)

Broadway (combining the 0 and 0L): 10,100.

So at least Broadway and Federal, as well as Colfax, garner more ridership with garbage bus service than the northwest rail would.

[wong21fr]

^The 40 (Colorado Blvd) pulls in a respectable 4,700 riders per day.

(2011 numbers)

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So at least Broadway and Federal, as well as Colfax, garner more ridership with garbage bus service than the northwest rail would.

Good for streetcar, good for street car, GOOD FOR STREET CAR!

How do we always discuss transit in the development thread. That Union Station.. Always getting us mixed up on the forum..

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by RyanD

How do we always discuss transit in the development thread. That Union Station.. Always getting us mixed up on the forum..

Because this is not the "development thread." It is the "Denver thread." Or rather, just "the thread."

[Cirrus]

What's the next best Boulder bus? The HOP?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

What's the next best Boulder bus? The HOP?

Had to do some digging for this one. City of Boulder has an annual transportation report though. They show average weekday ridership (2012) of:

B (Denver): 6,177
SKIP: 5,337
HOP: 2,932 (noteworthy: this is down from 3,547 in 2003 - I wonder why?)
DASH: 2,533
JUMP: 1,937
BOLT (Longmont): 1,649 (up from 779 in 2003)
BOUND: 1,566

For comparison:

Originally Posted by Octavian

Westminster/Broomfield Phase
2,100 - 3,400

Northwest Rail – Louisville Phase
(Broomfield to Louisville)
1,700 - 1,800

Northwest Rail – Boulder Phase
(Louisville to Boulder Junction)
2,000 - 2,100

Total Westminster-Boulder segment ridership contribution = 5,800-7,300 (compare to 6,177, B bus today)

Originally Posted by Octavian

Northwest Rail – Longmont Phase
(Boulder Junction to Longmont)
1,500 - 1,600

Compare to 1,649 BOLT bus today.

Essentially, we are replacing bus with rail at a cost of $1.4 billion, with no projected ridership increase.

[Cirrus]

I'm surprised the HOP, DASH, and JUMP are that low. I guess Boulder is just not very big.

Now, another question: Who has ridership projections for the the Ft Collins BRT?

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I'm surprised the HOP, DASH, and JUMP are that low. I guess Boulder is just not very big.

Now, another question: Who has ridership projections for the the Ft Collins BRT?

I really want to know what the ridership projections will be for the VelociRFTA since it's the first rural BRT..

[DenverRider2]

Originally Posted by Octavian

Here's more context on those numbers:
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-c...-rail-will-get

Why another sales tax to fund transportation projects in colorado? Wouldn't a gas tax make much more sense (user pays)?

[Cirrus]

Here we go. FTA report from 2009 for Fort Collins BRT. 3,900 average weekday boarding in the opening year.

Same FTA report for VelociRFTA says 3,700 in opening year.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I'm surprised the HOP, DASH, and JUMP are that low. I guess Boulder is just not very big.

Or people drive more in Boulder than is believed. Or bike more.

Or probably a combination of all of these factors.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Here we go. FTA report from 2009 for Fort Collins BRT. 3,900 average weekday boarding in the opening year.

Same FTA report for VelociRFTA says 3,700 in opening year.

Damn, you beat met to it (the EA from 2008 for the MAX BRT):

http://www.fcgov.com/mason/pdf/ea-env_assmnt.pdf

Ridership of 3,882 for the opening year which was projected to be in 2011. 2035 ridership would be 5,936.

[bunt_q]

Moving a conversation to the transportation thread is the forum equivalent of an Iraqi politician "forming a committee." In other words, it's a death sentence. I would have liked to have seen this conversation left in the other thread, if only so those people could see the ridership numbers for comparison.