NEW YORK | Port Authority Bus Terminal Replacement

[JSsocal]

Don't think I'd call the PABT a waste of space. Besides the potential capacity to build on top of the new terminal/garage, really is another office/residential development such a better use? What would another 'worldwide plaza' development (which is really the scope of development we're talking about) really do?

There are some tremendous benefits of having a terminal directly in the CBD, and also one that is so close to the other major rail terminals in Manhattan.

The busses aren't the problem of congestion. Look at the Holland tunnel and it's just as much of a nightmare, stacked with cars.

[BBMW]

It's completely a waste of space, especially when you look at the issue of routing the buses between the tunnel and the terminal. Also, to build a new one while the existing one stays in operation means essentially doubling it's footprint for a lot of years.

Originally Posted by JSsocal

Don't think I'd call the PABT a waste of space.

Building a new terminal, with provision to build on top just makes a complicated project that much more complicated, and the presence of the buses and terminal makes the property less desirable..

Besides the potential capacity to build on top of the new terminal/garage,

Unquestionably yes. From really any objective, quantifiable way you want to look at it. Job generation, tax revenue generation, quality of life in the area, etc. A bus terminal is nothing but blight. It should be put where it impacts the fewest people directly. Out in an commercial area of Jersey is about right.

really is another office/residential development such a better use?

This would essentially be a follow on to Hudson Yards, and if take to the fullest extent (including roofing over the tunnel approaches and building there.) it should approach NY is size. It's also a more desirable area, being closer to midtown.

What would another 'worldwide plaza' development (which is really the scope of development we're talking about) really do?

There would be even more benefits from removing it, and using the subway to bring those passengers into the city. And that subway connects to all the major north/south lines in Manhattan, and goes directly into Grand Central.

There are some tremendous benefits of having a terminal directly in the CBD, and also one that is so close to the other major rail terminals in Manhattan.

The cars are a separate problem that can be handled separately.

The busses aren't the problem of congestion. Look at the Holland tunnel and it's just as much of a nightmare, stacked with cars.

One other benefit of my proposal is that there would then be a new rail transit line in to Manhattan. While it's direct purpose would be to support the new bus terminal, not everyone using that line in from Jersey would take the bus to the station. One of the advantages of the Meadowlands location for the terminal would be that the vast parking lot that almost all weekdays is completely empty, could be used as a huge park and ride to feed the subway line. That would be another way to keep cars out of the tunnel.

[TechTalkGuy]

I personally love the station.
I've parked there, enjoyed many delicious meals there (breakfast and lunch) and it's also a nice destination in and of itself.

The rooftop parking is awesome and I snapped the photo for my SSP avatar (from the roof).

[PEORIA]

Originally Posted by TechTalkGuy

I personally love the station.
I've parked there, enjoyed many delicious meals there (breakfast and lunch) and it's also a nice destination in and of itself.

The rooftop parking is awesome and I snapped the photo for my SSP avatar (from the roof).

☺ You, just, proved the old idiom.... " One man's trash is another man's treasure. "

[C.]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...tion/76696352/

Port Authority eyes new bus terminal location

The future sits a block to the west, where the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey plans to construct a new bus terminal, a $10.5 billion behemoth stretching from Ninth Avenue to Eleventh Avenue that would nearly border the Hudson River. The simple concept of building a new terminal was approved in October, though decisions on even the most basic details — such as size and location — won't occur until next year.

When bidding on the contract, designers have been asked to consider alternate sites if they have a better idea. The board won’t approve a particular design or contract until September 2016.

"This is an unbelievably complicated project being done at the crossroads of the world, on the site of some of the most expensive and important real estate in the world," Foye said. "It's the largest infrastructure project that will be done to date by the Port Authority and one of the largest infrastructure projects ever done in the Untied States. It takes time, and I think the time has served the project well."

[C.]

I hope the Port Authority takes full advantage of its immunity to local zoning to redevelop the old PABT site into a real estate development that would rival Hudson Yards in terms of square footage and do the same with the air rights at the new station location, wherever that may be.

I would not be surprised if someone proposes extending the midtown PATH line that currently ends in Journal Square, Jersey City to Secaucus using abandoned railway spurs to connect with a new PABT to be built at the Secaucus Junction. Former Mayor Bloomberg planned to extend the 7 line to Secaucus Junction along with the construction of a 140 bay bus terminal. The 7 line isn't being extended to NJ, but the PATH is already there.

From a business point of view, PATH demand would soar, which would allow the PA to charge higher rates and collect the additional fares from the hundreds of thousands of riders that use the PABT everyday. From a planning point of view, it solves the bottleneck at the Hudson and Lincoln tunnels by diverting bus traffic to a facility in Jersey with a direct rail connection to Manhattan.

There is no way the PA will waste $10 billion on building a station between 11th and 9th avenues in Manhattan as the land is too valuable and we're already at or near capacity with vehicle access to the city and staging areas for buses once they arrive here. I think they just right now return to Jersey empty after the morning rush which is inefficient, unenvironmentally friendly, and clogs up the transportation system. The new station will be built in Jersey, mark my words.

[drumz0rz]

Originally Posted by CIA

I would not be surprised if someone proposes extending the midtown PATH line that currently ends in Journal Square, Jersey City to Secaucus using abandoned railway spurs to connect with a new PABT to be built at the Secaucus Junction. Former Mayor Bloomberg planned to extend the 7 line to Secaucus Junction along with the construction of a 140 bay bus terminal. The 7 line isn't being extended to NJ, but the PATH is already there.

From a business point of view, PATH demand would soar, which would allow the PA to charge higher rates and collect the additional fares from the hundreds of thousands of riders that use the PABT everyday. From a planning point of view, it solves the bottleneck at the Hudson and Lincoln tunnels by diverting bus traffic to a facility in Jersey with a direct rail connection to Manhattan.

I don't think extending the PATH to Secaucus makes much sense. Looking at a map, there is not easy way to route the tracks, at best it could share the already fairly crowded NJT tracks but you'd need to run 3rd rail the whole length. Riders can already take a NJT train from Secaucus to Hoboken and then jump on the PATH or take a ferry from there.

[C.]

^ What are you thoughts about the plan to extend the 7 line to Secaucus.

No. 7 Secaucus Extension Final Report

PATH can get to Secaucus much easier than the 7.

[TechTalkGuy]

Originally Posted by CIA

^ What are you thoughts about the plan to extend the 7 line to Secaucus.

No. 7 Secaucus Extension Final Report

PATH can get to Secaucus much easier than the 7.

I have never used the PATH line ever, but the 7 line is one of my favs in the city.
Personally, I feel that the benefits for the subway extension would provide a huge benefit to the city of New York, the new West Side development and (most obviously) the MTA.

New York City has always been the standard for which other large cities follow.
Let's set an example and show the world how it's done.

[C.]

Community Board 4\Hell's Kitchen community are not supportive of a new bus terminal west of 9th avenue for fears it will divide the community. This community opposition will provide ammunition to John Degnan and his push to relocate the new PABT to New Jersey.

http://chelseanow.com/2015/11/costly...-neighborhood/

[streetscaper]

I don't like the idea of the PABT in Jersey. Many, many people (probably most) will have to take 3 modes of transportation instead of two:

Bus -> 7 Train in NJ -> XYZ Train in Manhattan





Since so many train lines stop at the Times Sq station connected to PABT, the new NJ scheme would be quite a step back from the current setup:

Bus -> XYZ train in Manhattan





I support building the new station between 9th and 11th Ave in Manhattan. I don't see how it can divide the neighborhood more than the current mess of ramps there now.

[antinimby]

^ Don't pay attention to those Community Boards a.k.a. NIMBYS. They are against everything. Nothing would ever get built if you listen to them.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

I don't like the idea of the PABT in Jersey. Many, many people (probably most) will have to take 3 modes of transportation instead of two:

Bus -> 7 Train in NJ -> XYZ Train in Manhattan

Since so many train lines stop at the Times Sq station connected to PABT, the new NJ scheme would be quite a step back from the current setup:

Bus -> XYZ train in Manhattan

I support building the new station between 9th and 11th Ave in Manhattan. I don't see how it can divide the neighborhood more than the current mess of ramps there now.

The focus on adding a transfer ignores the (often substantial) delays that busses incur in the XBL and PABT itself, the totally absurd cost a new Manhattan terminal will command, and the problems/delays of having to build it while not cutting much trans hudson bus capacity. They could build out the 7 extension and a huge new terminal at Secaucus without having to cut any capacity or do expensive phasing then simply switch over when they're done. After completion instead of turning over the XBL tube to cars send the HBLR into Manhattan to a loop station under the site of the current PABT then sell off the development rights above.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by k1052

The focus on adding a transfer ignores the (often substantial) delays that busses incur in the XBL and PABT itself, the totally absurd cost a new Manhattan terminal will command, and the problems/delays of having to build it while not cutting much trans hudson bus capacity. They could build out the 7 extension and a huge new terminal at Secaucus without having to cut any capacity or do expensive phasing then simply switch over when they're done. After completion instead of turning over the XBL tube to cars send the HBLR into Manhattan to a loop station under the site of the current PABT then sell off the development rights above.

Pretty much all modes of transportation have their fair share of delays in NYC, you think a NJ PABT and a 7 train extension will somehow be immune to that? I agree that the transition would be harder with a new PABT right next door, but it would be well worth the temporary headache. I used to have to commute into the PABT for a whole year, and I believe having to do two+ transfers would be a real mental drag on commuters.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

Pretty much all modes of transportation have their fair share of delays in NYC, you think a NJ PABT and a 7 train extension will somehow be immune to that? I agree that the transition would be harder with a new PABT right next door, but it would be well worth the temporary headache. I used to have to commute into the PABT for a whole year, and I believe having to do two+ transfers would be a real mental drag on commuters.

At least at Secacus you'd have the NEC services still to get into the city if the 7 had issues. The horrendous cost of rebuilding the PABT which doesn't accommodate much in the way of future transit growth versus adding real trans-hudson capacity doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

[BrownTown]

I know this is NYC and all but it's just so crazy to hear a BUS TERMINAL being refereed to as one of the largest infrastructure projects in the country.

I wish we could get an objective analysis of the time delays of having the bus terminal in Manhattan verse Secaucus. It seems like being able to avoid that Lincoln tunnel would compensate for the transfer.

[antinimby]

Also, isn't the new terminal going to be that much further from the Times Square station that most bus riders after arriving at the PABT would get on a train to get there instead of walking the two or three long blocks, making it a 3-seat ride anyway?

[drumz0rz]

No trains run east-west like that. You'll have to hike it, which would majorly suck for everyone who deals with that on a daily basis.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by TechTalkGuy

I have never used the PATH line ever, but the 7 line is one of my favs in the city.
Personally, I feel that the benefits for the subway extension would provide a huge benefit to the city of New York, the new West Side development and (most obviously) the MTA.

New York City has always been the standard for which other large cities follow.
Let's set an example and show the world how it's done.

+1000 -- the pabt is one of the most remarkable transit structures ever concieved. i have no issues with it and doubt it could be improved. if they really want it to go it should go to secaucus and a train should be extended there. it would be great to have all that loosened up redevelopable space that is for sure, but moving it around in manhattan is a pointless waste of time and $.

[TechTalkGuy]

Liks I said, the pabt is a destination in and of itself and I have enjoyed it numerous times over the years.

If you look closely at my avatar, you will know that I snapped that pic from the roof.

Yeah, it's like THAT!