Urban Design in Edmonton

Coldrsx · #1 Posted **Oct 12, 2016, 9:50 PM**

Trying hard to not make comments about our main floors/public realm after walking around Paris at the moment...

That said, a good reminder of how many dead/quiet streets there are here.

Albicaulis · #2 Posted **Oct 12, 2016, 9:55 PM**

^
Check out Brasserie O'neil (brew pub, in the 6th ARR) if you have a chance.

Hallsy's Toupee · #3 Posted **Oct 14, 2016, 1:33 AM**

I don't really care for Cold's preachiness on how urban residents should live their lives, but I also don't care for the negative nancies and the "can't do" mentality of some of you.

One of the reasons I joined C2E and SSP is to share ideas on how to make Edmonton better. If one of those ideas is to have more patios open all year around, then great. If it catches on then keep at it; if not then let it die.

Some perspective - Edmonton's patio culture is a lot better now than it was 10 years ago, and maybe some folks like Cold should probably get some credit for that, for making it an issue with the politicians. Now they stay open longer, much of the red tape around having them are burnt away, and places on Whyte and Jasper have embraced the boardwalk patios. But there's some room for improvement.

ue · #4 Posted **Oct 14, 2016, 2:16 AM**

I think there's a middle ground to be had here. I don't really appreciate Cold's condescending snobbery myself, but I also don't really believe in the status quo either. I get that many Edmontonians (most, I guess) prefer the suburban lifestyle and that's fine, I think. But there are better ways for us to be planning our suburbia so that it is accessible to people who want that backyard but lead otherwise different lifestyles and want different options. And if you're unconcerned with that, they could also be built more sustainably. The Cornell neighbourhood in Markham or the East Clayton neighbourhood in Surrey or perhaps Garrison Woods in Calgary are suburban developments that are more what we could strive towards. It's still auto-centric and fairly spacious, but walkable and at least striving to be diverse. Terwillegar Towne, Windermere, and Griesbach are steps in the right direction.

I also think that we can be a city that supports "patio culture" as well as the New World suburban lifestyle that has gone on unabated for decades. There is clearly a significant segment of Edmonton that lives (and even more who want to live) a more urban lifestyle like Cold and they should be able to push their parts of the city forward with transit, density, organic markets, bicycle shops, and winter patios, or at least give them a shot. We probably could extend our regular patio season a bit, although as mentioned already, it has vastly improved, and we could continue endeavouring towards more heated winter patios. Preferably we would start in a concentrated area, like RHW or Whyte or 104th St, instead of trying to make it happen everywhere.

In short, the urbanistas should accept that Edmonton is a suburban city of the automobile age and while we should be trying to curb the unsustainable and limited aspects of that lifestyle, we shouldn't denigrate those who opt for it. On the other hand, the suburbanites should accept that Edmonton is a growing, diverse city and there is a more urban-orientated segment of the population who aren't cool with the status quo and want to progress Edmonton forward with new, innovative ideas and they shouldn't be attacked for that.

Coldrsx · #5 Posted **Oct 14, 2016, 8:31 AM**

I find it odd that my perceived condescension is in fact simple ways to enjoy an urban lifestyle. The idea that we 'don't have time' or 'can't because Edmonton' or 'too cold' (double entendre) is hilarious. The basics of walking to where you want to go, if not use transit, supporting local shops versus going to the mall or power centre, enjoying a post-work pint with coworkers, friends or family instead of rushing home to make sure your kids aren't fine when they certainly are, or perhaps invite and involve them. This isn't just a Paris thing, but I absolutely love how in many other cities you see kids walking, skating, scootering, being carried by parents on the bus, going to the market, going to the park...

ue · #6 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 2:25 AM**

I was randomly perusing downtown and Oliver on Google Maps this evening for the first time in a long time and looking at this area from a birds eye view, it really brings home just how much utterly wasted space there is in our core. And to think, it was so much worse before the Ice District, and yet, that really although being a huge plot of wasted space gone, is only a sliver of the overall picture.

It's not even just in places like the BP Lands or Commonwealth Lands or Oliver Square, places that are easy to namedrop as being underutilized. Even relatively built up areas like the area around McKay Ave on 99 Ave or Capital Blvd from the Dennys down to the foot of the Federal Building or small and large plots within Grandin, it's quite ridiculous how empty a lot of our central land still is. It just kinda goes to show that despite all the new construction and progress, there is still so far to go. Really only the immediate Financial core and pockets of Oliver are built out.

I hope that we can begin to strike a balance between huge scaled projects like the Ice District and filling in smaller gaps like this.

Hardhatdan · #7 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 2:29 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ue

I was randomly perusing downtown and Oliver on Google Maps this evening for the first time in a long time and looking at this area from a birds eye view, it really brings home just how much utterly wasted space there is in our core. And to think, it was so much worse before the Ice District, and yet, that really although being a huge plot of wasted space gone, is only a sliver of the overall picture.

It's not even just in places like the BP Lands or Commonwealth Lands or Oliver Square, places that are easy to namedrop as being underutilized. Even relatively built up areas like the area around McKay Ave on 99 Ave or Capital Blvd from the Dennys down to the foot of the Federal Building or small and large plots within Grandin, it's quite ridiculous how empty a lot of our central land still is. It just kinda goes to show that despite all the new construction and progress, there is still so far to go. Really only the immediate Financial core and pockets of Oliver are built out.

Go look at west jasper ave right between about 113st and 116st...empty lots, vacancies, car dealership. Lots of 1 story disposable buildings filled with very random businesses. It's almost bombed out feeling.
Such a strange little strip and a little further west there is a bit more on the north side, but no vacant lots.
West Jasper is stuck right now in this weird transition and the "urban fabric" has a lot of pock marks despite overall having quite a few good things to go to.

ue · #8 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 2:34 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

Go look at west jasper ave right between about 113st and 116st...empty lots, vacancies, car dealership. Lots of 1 story disposable buildings filled with very random businesses. It's almost bombed out feeling.
Such a strange little strip and a little further west there is a bit more on the north side, but no vacant lots.
West Jasper is stuck right now in this weird transition and the "urban fabric" has a lot of pock marks despite overall having quite a few good things to go to.

Yes, I agree. I thought of West Jasper too and almost mentioned it, but it also seemed like an easy to name place a la the Commonwealth Lands. West Jasper Ave is a total embarrassment for our densest neighbourhood. It's actually more shocking that a neighbourhood that is so dense, so walkable both north and south of the avenue has such a shitty main drag. I don't know how this is possible in this day and age, really. We have 104 Ave for thoroughfare traffic. It's just baffling, really. There are a few good stretches, but it's all broken up, piecemeal fashion, and only exists for a block at best, on one side of the avenue.

feepa · #9 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 2:06 PM**

those <many> empty lots will fill up over time, when the land owner feels the time is right for them, not us. We can try to create incentives to build, or raise taxes for unimproved properties, but still the onus is on the owner, and has little to do with the wishes of people on a forum, or the city as a whole.

In terms of fixing Jasper Ave West, the best thing to happen will be when Edmonton Motors moves out which should happen in the short to medium term.

The city should fight owners who choose to tear down existing buildings and turn them into empty lots or parking lots. I'm looking at you, NE corner of 116/Jasper ave, for example.

kcantor · #10 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 4:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by feepa

those <many> empty lots will fill up over time, when the land owner feels the time is right for them, not us. We can try to create incentives to build, or raise taxes for unimproved properties, but still the onus is on the owner, and has little to do with the wishes of people on a forum, or the city as a whole.

In terms of fixing Jasper Ave West, the best thing to happen will be when Edmonton Motors moves out which should happen in the short to medium term.

The city should fight owners who choose to tear down existing buildings and turn them into empty lots or parking lots. I'm looking at you, NE corner of 116/Jasper ave, for example.

emphasis added...

if there is no market for a finished product at a reasonable expectation of profit, raising the taxes won't shorten the development time frame.

at best it will have the unintended consequence of encouraging the development of more "crap" in order to get out from under as quickly and as cheaply as possible. and when that doesn't work, the city will end up owning those parcels as tax foreclosures and will lose the base taxes as well as never receiving the increased tax.

i.e. if you have lot worth 100k and it takes 300k to build a new home that you would only be able to sell for 275k in the current market, you're not going to build that home even if the taxes go from 2k to 3k or 5k or 10k. at some point you will look at and say the market isn't go recover for 10 years and you'll walk away because it will never recover enough quickly enough to reimburse you for the added carrying costs even if you could afford to pay them.

Coldrsx · #11 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 2:09 PM**

We need another decade of solid growth for central Edmonton to get to become a respectable and continuous urban core.

10000 more people downtown and another 5 in Oliver.

feepa · #12 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 10:29 PM**

I'll take a backyard in Edmonton. Central Paris is a nice place to visit, not sure I would want to live there.
I hope the urban design folks in this thread realize that not everyone wants to live in a flat in central Paris or central Edmonton for that matter. Some people like their private space. hence why suburbs have been the preferred choice for the majority of people in north america since World War II.
I'm not going to look down my nose at those who a choice of their preference though. I'll support what ever lifestyle people will make, and respect them for that.

noodlenoodle · #13 Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 1:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by feepa

I
I hope the urban design folks in this thread realize that not everyone wants to live in a flat in central Paris or central Edmonton for that matter. Some people like their private space. hence why suburbs have been the preferred choice for the majority of people in north america since World War II.

Hell, even central, urban Paris has dropped in population over the last 60 years. But that's not something you'd notice drinking Kronenbourgs at a café in the 11th arrondissement.

The desire for private, personal space is not unique to North Americans, but it's far easier to accommodate the desire on our continent.

Coldrsx · #14 Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 10:32 PM**

Most people want some private space, yes, but many also want a vibrant neighbourhood with amenities, parks, services that you can walk to. This is not unique to central Edmonton, but city-wide.

Public spaces and urban hoods need to continue to work on making them inclusive, inviting and get that important critical mass.

Coldrsx · #15 Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 3:13 PM**

It most certainly is, but the shame is that we do not put enough investment/interest/innovation into our public spaces generally speaking.

noodlenoodle · #16 Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 3:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

It most certainly is, but the shame is that we do not put enough investment/interest/innovation into our public spaces generally speaking.

We do a good-to-great job with public spaces, like parks, plazas, rec centres, libraries, trails, footbridges & public attractions like Fort Edmonton & TWOS.

Patios aren't public areas. They're private businesses subject to market forces, those same market forces you choose to ignore every time you go on a rant about how patios close too early for your tastes.

My wife adores Edmonton's balance between public & private spaces, far more than her native Sweden (except for the lack of Allemansrätten, but that's a major cultural difference.)

feepa · #17 Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 3:16 PM**

^ do you feel this way just because North American's aren't to up to being on a cold patio at +5 C?

Coldrsx · #18 Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 3:20 PM**

No, I feel this way because we tend to over-prioritize private space here and silo ourselves versus enriching our society and culture by being within it more often.

noodlenoodle · #19 Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 3:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

No, I feel this way because we tend to over-prioritize private space here and silo ourselves versus enriching our society and culture by being within it more often.

Basically you want other people to have your priorities/opinions/values & find it somehow shameful/wrong/incorrect that they don't?

Coldrsx · #20 Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 3:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodlenoodle

Basically you want other people to have your priorities/opinions/values & find it somehow shameful/wrong/incorrect that they don't?

Nope, but bravo again. Point being that we tend to have such 'comfortable' and 'easy' private spaces that we often spend far too much time within/at them versus going out and being a part of our society/city.