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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 12:17 AM
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^
Is that guy even real? He's like an American in Canada.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 12:37 AM
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^
Is that guy even real? He's like an American in Canada.
He's real. haha I saw him out walking in my neighbourhood a couple of years afterwards.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 1:20 AM
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^That NJ "mall" took almost 20 years to be built, and is more of a lightweight theme park now in order to be viable. Plus the shopping wing hasn't even opened yet.
Pretty sure none of it is really open, they did a big fake invite only PR "opening".

I gotta say that thing is such an impressive clusterfuck. And now with Coronavirus? It's like it's cursed.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 2:21 AM
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It's the death of the department store that has been killing malls. No more department stores, no more anchor tenants, simple as that. And even the loss of one anchor can have devastating effect on the foot traffic. And it's such a shame because probably not many people prefer driving from store to store in a power centre vs. parking in one place and walking from store to store in an air-conditioned environment.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 2:43 AM
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The Eaton Centre is the busiest mall in North America, and it was also the site of this historic moment almost exactly ten years ago:

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Greatest moment in Toronto history.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 2:58 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
It's the death of the department store that has been killing malls. No more department stores, no more anchor tenants, simple as that. And even the loss of one anchor can have devastating effect on the foot traffic. And it's such a shame because probably not many people prefer driving from store to store in a power centre vs. parking in one place and walking from store to store in an air-conditioned environment.
That's very true about the foot traffic. Malls always had at least 2 anchor stores.......the department and the grocery. They were ALWAYS at the opposite ends of the malls forcing people to walk thru the mall to go from one to the other and passing all those smaller, discretionary stores along the way getting enticed in. Now that the department stores are closed, there is little reason for most shoppers to venture into the malls themselves.

We also, however, have to remember that much of the decline of the malls is purely demographic. Most malls were built in the 70s & 80s in booming suburban areas. They were surrounded by new homes with young families and all those teenage discretionary spenders, Now the kids are gone and those parents are now retired and aren't interested in the latest gadgets or fashions but much more just the neccessities. This is why malls often fall but the grocery stores and pharmacies are the only ones left standing.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 2:31 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
It's the death of the department store that has been killing malls. No more department stores, no more anchor tenants, simple as that. And even the loss of one anchor can have devastating effect on the foot traffic. And it's such a shame because probably not many people prefer driving from store to store in a power centre vs. parking in one place and walking from store to store in an air-conditioned environment.
Death of the mall has killed department stores, not the other way around.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 2:43 PM
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Upscale malls seem to be doing well but regular run in the mill malls anchored by a Sears/ JC Penney/ Macy's are dying a slow death. If it has an Apple Store, it's probably doing ok but if it has a bunch of phone repair shops, it's probably on its way out.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 4:06 PM
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Delaware has dying and thriving malls, and in between.

Christiana Mall is one of the more successful malls in the US, and still attracts buses of people from Connecticut or Virginia, and everywhere in between, for tax-free shopping. People plan weekends around coming to Delaware and going to Christiana Mall.

Dover Mall was a very successful mall, but is quickly going downhill. Just 5 years ago, there was a plan to build a new interchange/entrance & exit ramp from DE Route 1 to the mall. Now, the mall is hurt by online shopping, and Christiana Mall is just an hour away, so some stores are closing, and the entire mall is in trouble.

Down the road some, the Blue Hen Mall is a dead mall in Dover that is used as office space for a couple entities, and as an indoor walking area for senior citizens. It still has that 1986 look inside.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2020, 11:04 PM
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The deck is certainly getting more stacked against malls, for a bunch of reasons. Like anything it's not a simple topic.

Over-leveraged chains
Internet retail
A desire for walkable urban formats
Overbuilding, including in non-mall formats
Aging malls
Plus Covid for a while

All of these are factors, and they can inflate each other. For example, Covid's temporary effects can also worsen the debt faced by retailers, and malls can suffer without cash flow and frequent updates. Which can diminish the experience of shopping in a mall and push others to internet retail.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2020, 2:57 AM
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No pictures to share with you. but here's a synopsis of the history of retail malls in the Kansas City area and their fate....


Current

1. Independence Center - Built in 1974, still a fairly active and successful mall in Independence, MO. 3 anchor stores, but Sears finally closed down in 2019.

2. Oak Park Mall - Built in 1974, in Overland Park, KS is currently thriving as the most successful mall in the KC area.

3. Ward Parkway Shopping Center - Built in 1959 in KC, The mall was transformed about 10 years ago into a successful strip mall, with very little of the original mall remaining.

4. North Antioch Center - Built in 1956 as an open air mall, in Gladstone, it was eventually enclosed. Like Ward Parkway, It underwent a major transformation a few years ago, and is now an outdoor strip center. Sears, its only major anchor store closed a few years ago.


Closed

5. Blue Ridge Mall - Opened in 1957 in eastern Kansas City, it was demolished in 2005, A Walmart and Lowe's a strip center, and several restaurants stand in its place.

6. Bannister Mall - built in 1980, was the premier shopping area in south KC. It eventually lost out to further retail development in Lee's Summit, Belton/Raymore, Leawood. It was also crime ridden. It was demolished in 2009. The new Cerner Office Park is currently being built where it once stood.

7. Metro North Shopping Mall - built in 1976, the premier shopping center of the north metro area. Like most malls, it fell into decline and nearly all of it was demolished just last year. Only the Macy's Department store still stands and currently operating. Future plans are awaiting.

8. Mission Center Mall. A smaller mall in Mission KS. Built in 1956, it was demolished in 2006, with a future Walmart to take its place, but construction has stalled indefinitely.

9. Metcalf South Shopping Center - built in 1967, was once the premier mall in Overland Park, KS for many years. It fell into decline, and was demolished in 2017 with only an abandoned Sears department store remaining. A new Lowe's is currently on the site, with other development about to take place.

10. Indian Springs Mall - built in 1971, was a popular shopping destination in Kansas City, KS. Eventually fell to crime, and store closures. Demolished in 2016, it is currently an empty lot.

11. Great Mall of the Great Plains - opened in 1997 in Olathe KS, it was a gigantic outlet mall, with no major retailors like Macy's, Dillard's, Sears, etc. The mall was a raging success for a couple of years, but quickly lost popularity as the outlet idea started to die out. It was demolished in 2017 with only the Burlington Coat Factory still remaining.

12. Leavenworth Plaza Center - Built in 1967, in Leavenworth. A smaller mall with a Sears and JC Penny as anchors. The mall eventually declined and it was transformed into a regular strip mall, with the enclosed part demolished in 2015.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 2:10 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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I realize that the larger forces causing malls to die out can't really be resisted. But I wish maybe we could maybe preserve and reuse certain examples of those buildings because they are great public spaces and are works of architecture. Some malls could be converted to multiple uses while retaining small amounts of retail, IMO. You could put community and educational facilities in them, housing, etc, and still have a food court(call it a "food hall" to be trendy) or something.

Austin's Highland Mall got converted into a community college. Unfortunately it was never that much of an architectural gem, the inside was just white walls and the floor was made of red tile. The renovation was stereotypical 2010's, nice but eh. The only cool old thing left is the metal cube artwork at the northwestern entrance, which also has the old mall logo. I wonder if that will be kept or eventually removed?
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 5:01 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
I realize that the larger forces causing malls to die out can't really be resisted. But I wish maybe we could maybe preserve and reuse certain examples of those buildings because they are great public spaces and are works of architecture. Some malls could be converted to multiple uses while retaining small amounts of retail, IMO. You could put community and educational facilities in them, housing, etc, and still have a food court(call it a "food hall" to be trendy) or something.

Austin's Highland Mall got converted into a community college. Unfortunately it was never that much of an architectural gem, the inside was just white walls and the floor was made of red tile. The renovation was stereotypical 2010's, nice but eh. The only cool old thing left is the metal cube artwork at the northwestern entrance, which also has the old mall logo. I wonder if that will be kept or eventually removed?
Interesting idea. Malls could become indoor mixed-use areas, almost like a self-sustaining skyway system on the ground in one building. Or, looking at it from the other end, it would be like a condo with retail and other things built in and accessible from inside the building.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 4:38 PM
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There are examples of reuse. But they aren't necessarily easy or cheap, and they're often not terribly desirable places regardless.

For one, the existing buildings are often more expensive to retrofit than to replace. They tend to be built to the dimensions of department stores, small stores, common areas, and loading docks, very little of which matches what most tenants want. Depending on the construction type, it might be very difficult to open up a department store with windows for example. The massive floorplates are a challenge. In a multi-level store the floor-to-floor heights can add some challenge in HVAC and the ease of unfit people using stairs. Subdividing can have extra challenges in giant spaces.

A food court requires many thousands of people to cycle through per day. Most adaptive reuse concepts involve far fewer people, plus they tend to be bunched around the mealtimes for those uses, and only five days per week. It could work but only in select cases.

Malls tend to be built for short lifetimes. The bones might last but the finishes don't. I'm not sure there's much to save.

And frankly, I won't root for this to be a trend. Let's say you keep the main mall building with other uses (offices etc.) and put housing, offices, and garages on the rest. Do you want outdoor retail, like real streets? Or do you want to get everyone inside the mall? Let's say you have 2,000 apartments (3,000 people) and 500,000 sf of office (2,500 people. Those aren't going to sustain much restaurant or takeout traffic, so it's probably an either/or on where you want most people to go.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 5:33 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
There are examples of reuse. But they aren't necessarily easy or cheap, and they're often not terribly desirable places regardless.

For one, the existing buildings are often more expensive to retrofit than to replace. They tend to be built to the dimensions of department stores, small stores, common areas, and loading docks, very little of which matches what most tenants want. Depending on the construction type, it might be very difficult to open up a department store with windows for example. The massive floorplates are a challenge. In a multi-level store the floor-to-floor heights can add some challenge in HVAC and the ease of unfit people using stairs. Subdividing can have extra challenges in giant spaces.

A food court requires many thousands of people to cycle through per day. Most adaptive reuse concepts involve far fewer people, plus they tend to be bunched around the mealtimes for those uses, and only five days per week. It could work but only in select cases.

Malls tend to be built for short lifetimes. The bones might last but the finishes don't. I'm not sure there's much to save.

And frankly, I won't root for this to be a trend. Let's say you keep the main mall building with other uses (offices etc.) and put housing, offices, and garages on the rest. Do you want outdoor retail, like real streets? Or do you want to get everyone inside the mall? Let's say you have 2,000 apartments (3,000 people) and 500,000 sf of office (2,500 people. Those aren't going to sustain much restaurant or takeout traffic, so it's probably an either/or on where you want most people to go.
I understand what you are saying. Maybe instead of preserving the throwaway building structure of mall or its awkward layout, what we should be preserving are any remaining bits and pieces of interior fixtures that are of architectural or artistic merit that can still be scavenged. The clock is seriously ticking on this, in 5-10 years this might be impossible. I'm talking about stuff such as murals, ceiling tapestries and mobiles, light fixtures, metal doors, fountain components when practical, entryway arches, large sculptural objects, abstract signage, big fake clocks, cool kiosks, decorative metal lattices, etc, etc. Then employ those, or recreations, in new developments utilizing the dead mall's massive former footprint which harken back to some of the ideals of planners who came up with the mall in the first place.

I guess the two traits of malls I actually care about are:

1. Interesting postmodern architecture flair and the "aesthetic" that I see becoming popular again in other forms is worthy of preservation in at least some instances. I acknowledge that the vast majority of malls in this country were either never that distinct and/or they have been renovated so many times their interiors have been reduced to utter blandness. Or they got so run down you can't do anything about it. But a few cool ones are still around and they are being knocked down at a fast rate and it sucks.

2. While I love traditional urbanism and like our downtown, I've come to realize living in Houston that maybe our ideal built environment shouldn't just blindly mimic the East Coast or Midwest. The heat and humidity make closed in streets with lots of dark colored bricks and hardscapes uncomfortably warm and kill the breeze and everything gets skanky. Especially near bars. Malls as I remember them growing up, with their cold tile and AC and the blast of air that smells interesting(was it in the bromine in the fountain water? probably very unhealthy and illegal now) sounds kind of good right now. But I realize it can't come back, per se.

In a new mixed use development utilizing the giant site of a dead mall that's been torn down, make the public square area more breezy with cooler lighter colors(grays, aqua, etc), and use the bits you took from the old mall before you knocked it down. Then while you keep an outdoor area, have an interior glass arcade with AC. Respect the concept of the old mall in your design but don't recreate it. What would be awesome is if we as a city, or any city, could come together and decide to cluster together various civic institutions like museums, new style libraries that are more about hands on stuff, recreation, education, etc in these spots. So it would have anchors that would make it a destination.

TLDR: I wish there were public spaces to go when its' 9000 degrees outside that are meant for everyone and not just a few people who live in gentrified neighborhoods, and said public spaces should also reflect our real, genuine architectural heritage.

Last edited by llamaorama; Jul 4, 2020 at 5:44 PM.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
I realize that the larger forces causing malls to die out can't really be resisted. But I wish maybe we could maybe preserve and reuse certain examples of those buildings because they are great public spaces and are works of architecture. Some malls could be converted to multiple uses while retaining small amounts of retail, IMO. You could put community and educational facilities in them, housing, etc, and still have a food court(call it a "food hall" to be trendy) or something.

Austin's Highland Mall got converted into a community college. Unfortunately it was never that much of an architectural gem, the inside was just white walls and the floor was made of red tile. The renovation was stereotypical 2010's, nice but eh. The only cool old thing left is the metal cube artwork at the northwestern entrance, which also has the old mall logo. I wonder if that will be kept or eventually removed?
Agreed. The land is still there...

Highland Mall looks more developed when I was out there early in the year, more apartments and small offices.

Sharpstown Mall in Houston could use some of that treatment. I really think the location is superb as someone who grew in Sharpstown/Westbury.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 6:40 PM
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I am eager to see what becomes of Barton Creek Square, which is perched on a bluff about 3 miles from downtown and endowed with some amazing skyline views of Austin. The mall is clearly in a steep decline, but there are still functioning anchor department stores. Seems to me that a mid-rise mixed use redevelopment with stores, movies, apartments, and offices could prove quite sexy. It would be rather self-contained, but with the right transit options it could still be quite accessible to downtown and the rest of south central Austin. It is surrounded on two sides by major highways. The rear of the property backs up against a very upscale area of mostly single family homes, so it is unlikely that anything taller than 8 to 10 stories would ever be permitted. They need to prune the foliage, but link is a peek at the view from the parking lot. https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2580...4!8i8192?hl=en
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 7:24 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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Austin as of right now only has 2 enclosed malls left, Barton Square and Lakeline. I have heard that Lakeline is so-so, meaning in the near future Austin will probably be THE largest city without an enclosed mall in its metro area.

I'm guessing that the Domain and the San Marcos outlet malls together are like black holes that suck up every bit of retail demand in the region? Maybe add La Cantera and the Rim area in SA and the two IKEA stores as "we are bored and lets go walk around somewhere" places and its pretty hard to think of anywhere else competing.

Barton Creek Square is very plain on the inside and even more plain on the outside so I don't see a lot of merit in trying to rescue it. Perhaps there was a time when it was more special? Whereas Lakeline has a very weird playful and colorful interior. Lakeline strikes me as being much newer too. When I was a kid growing up in Copperas Cove on some occasions we would drive down 183 to Cedar Park and go to that mall. The food court had/has fake buildings that curve around the ceiling and clouds painted on the ceiling.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 7:48 PM
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I am eager to see what becomes of Barton Creek Square, which is perched on a bluff about 3 miles from downtown and endowed with some amazing skyline views of Austin. The mall is clearly in a steep decline, but there are still functioning anchor department stores. Seems to me that a mid-rise mixed use redevelopment with stores, movies, apartments, and offices could prove quite sexy. It would be rather self-contained, but with the right transit options it could still be quite accessible to downtown and the rest of south central Austin. It is surrounded on two sides by major highways. The rear of the property backs up against a very upscale area of mostly single family homes, so it is unlikely that anything taller than 8 to 10 stories would ever be permitted. They need to prune the foliage, but link is a peek at the view from the parking lot. https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2580...4!8i8192?hl=en
Location, location, location. And good highway access as you mentioned. I don't see a Domain- like office development there but some some 4-5 story wrap around apartments with some better drinking options.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2020, 3:22 AM
muertecaza muertecaza is offline
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Here is a video of the last days of Metrocenter mall in Phoenix, famous as the mall in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

Video Link
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