When did Toronto pass Montreal?

[softee]

Originally Posted by park123

In regards to Toronto being large, yeah it is compared to Cleveland. Get back to me when there are 20 million plus people like in metro NY or LA. And in a European or Asian context, does anyone think Toronto is a "big city" on par with Paris, London, Moscow, Istanbul, or even Barcelona or Berlin for that matter? No one who has visited any of those places.

NYC is the only American metro with over 20 million, LA still has a ways to go. Sure, NYC, LA, Paris, London, Moscow, Istanbul are all megacities, but that is not the norm for most cities in the U.S. or Europe. Barcelona and Berlin are both smaller than Toronto and they are certainly still regarded as big cities by just about anyone... including you.

[Mister F]

Other Canadians throwing shade at Toronto is nothing new, but the venom from Americans is fascinating. I think it has to do with the fact that the attributes that SSPers tend to value are so rare in American cities and common in cities beyond their borders. The sting is extra strong when those cities speak English and are in the new world. The same hostility is being directed at Melbourne in a couple other threads for the same reasons. It's been amusingly happening since SSP was founded. For all their bravado, Americans can be an insecure bunch.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Then what is the point of this thread, since it's all anecdote?

Importance is completely subjective. There are no "numbers" parsing out whether a visitor is coming because of a Podiatry conference or because of an iconic attraction. I don't have any "numbers" to "prove" that Paris is a greater leisure tourist destination than Moose Jaw, but that doesn't mean my subjective observations aren't correct.

The point is that you made a claim that, if true, can be backed up by actual numbers. Since no numbers have been produced, I can only conclude that your claim was just an empty statement with nothing to back it up.

Originally Posted by lio45

The claim that those numbers include a ton of people who didn't choose to go there but instead are going there only because that's where the business they have to visit happens to be located or because it's where their flight connects doesn't need to be backed up, it's a fact.

Black is white. Up is down. These are also facts. Because I said so.

[dc_denizen]

The truth is that commonwealth cities (nz, can, aus) are extremely overrated.

People that point this out are being taken to task here, owing to the amount of homers

Meanwhile most Ontarian SSPers have not visited major American cities in 25 years and think they all look like they did in 1990

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You are missing at least one.

Hawaii? Puerto Rico would seem "exotic" to many Anglo-Canadians (and Americans alike), but is rarer as tourist destination it seems.

I'm not counting places that seem exotic from a climate/landscape perspective such as say Arizona but not as societally/culturally different, from the point of view of popular spots for Canadians.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Other Canadians throwing shade at Toronto is nothing new, but the venom from Americans is fascinating. I think it has to do with the fact that the attributes that SSPers tend to value are so rare in American cities and common in cities beyond their borders. The sting is extra strong when those cities speak English and are in the new world. The same hostility is being directed at Melbourne in a couple other threads for the same reasons. It's been amusingly happening since SSP was founded. For all their bravado, Americans can be an insecure bunch.


The point is that you made a claim that, if true, can be backed up by actual numbers. Since no numbers have been produced, I can only conclude that your claim was just an empty statement with nothing to back it up.


Black is white. Up is down. These are also facts. Because I said so.

Also don't forget the explanation that the reason for success of many Anglophone cities outside the US, like Melbourne, Toronto etc. is appararently due to China and Chinese money from overseas. Apparently, without it, these cities are nothing.

Also, the explanation that whenever cities in Canada or Australia get lots of growth from immigration in contemporary times, it doesn't count as the success of the city, even though places like NYC, Chicago back in the day also pretty much grew in the 20th century and owe much of their success from immigration.

[dc_denizen]

Right, it’s also really amazing how anyone could possibly think that Latin American safe haven capital flows could have anything to do with all the highrises built in Miami. I mean cmon

[Capsicum]

There's a difference between saying foreign investment exists in a city and saying that it is the only reason why a city is successful and growing. Major cities worldwide have foreign investment, London, NYC etc.

Cities like Toronto and Melbourne are growing because people are actually living there, working there, physically there -- the population is growing.

[dc_denizen]

great! most american cities are also growing. DC has exceeded 700k people for the first time since the 1950s. SF is close to 900k. Seattle at 725k.

[dc_denizen]

this is worth a read:

https://www.afr.com/property/residen...0190328-p518ob

It's not only consumers and small businesses who are finding it tough to get a loan these days. Property developers are also turning to non-bank lenders, including some who are shepherding Chinese investors.

A few years back these investors might have been eyeing up units in a new development in Sydney or Melbourne. Now they are getting in earlier, helping to finance developers who are strapped for cash.

"The whole purpose of Australia's foreign investment rules is to direct foreign capital into new housing to increase availability and put downward pressure on prices," he said.

^^ the above insanity is not a thing in the US, thankfully. this is brave new world territory, and certainly worthy of study and comment by Americans (if australians and canadians are too nationalistic to notice)

also interesting:

https://steemit.com/investing/@jason...an-real-estate

According to Australian Financial Review, 80 percent of the units were sold to local buyers, mostly Chinese immigrants, and 20 percent to overseas investors, mostly from China.

These hype-filled apartment offerings have been a regular occurrence in Australia’s biggest cities for the last few years. Another release on the same day in one of the southern suburbs of Sydney sold half of its offering in one day.

The Chinese are the primary drivers of demand for high-rise apartments in Australia. Aussies typically value dwellings with land, so they are not particularly drawn to the apartment market. Chinese investors on the other hand are quite accustomed to living in crowded boxes in the sky, so to them it seems like a logical investment.

In the 2014-2015 financial year alone, about $12.4 billion flowed from China into Australia’s residential property market, making up about 15 percent of all new home sales. That amounts to an increase of over 400 percent in just five years.

Some speculate the current flow of Chinese capital into Australia is only a trickle. According to Credit Suisse, the Asian giant could be gobbling up as much as 25 percent of all new Australian home sales by 2020.

In the second quarter of 2016, National Australia Bank reports that 21.7 percent of all new home sales in the Melbournian state of Victoria went to foreign buyers, mostly Chinese.

holy cow..

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ Although I agree with most of what you say it depends on what generation of people you're talking to and what part of the world they're from. The majority of Australians I run into are bowled over when I tell them that Vancouver isn't Canada's biggest city. They're shocked further when I tell them it's not even 2nd largest. To my parent's generation, Montreal was the face of Canada. My Dad grew up half way around the world but even there it was Montreal front and centre. Pierre Trudeau was widely admired and it coloured his entire view of Canada. To him Trudeau was great, Trudeau's Montreal was great, so Canada was great too. Toronto was viewed as a big but provincial backwater.

RE: Australia - that kind of makes sense, I suppose. Most of us here are at least vaguely familiar with world geography but I think most people in Canada and the United States would be surprised to learn Perth exists.

Just tell your Australian friends Vancouver is Canada's Perth. It's one of the most accurate comparisons - not the biggest, off to itself on the west coast, de facto capital of its own universe.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

RE: Australia - that kind of makes sense, I suppose. Most of us here are at least vaguely familiar with world geography but I think most people in Canada and the United States would be surprised to learn Perth exists.

Just tell your Australian friends Vancouver is Canada's Perth. It's one of the most accurate comparisons - not the biggest, off to itself on the west coast, de facto capital of its own universe.

Yes, it shocked me at first but I suppose Australians all focus on BC, Vancouver, Whistler, etc. When I told them that Vancouver was their Brisbane the light bulb went on.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by park123

Another way I would put it, is which is more prominent, New Jersey or Quebec? The populations are similar, and NJ has a larger economy, but is it really a question? Obviously Quebec is more prominent. There is more to things than straight population and GDP.

In regards to Toronto being large, yeah it is compared to Cleveland. Get back to me when there are 20 million plus people like in metro NY or LA. And in a European or Asian context, does anyone think Toronto is a "big city" on par with Paris, London, Moscow, Istanbul, or even Barcelona or Berlin for that matter? No one who has visited any of those places.

All one can say is that perceptions and reality don't always match up. I don't doubt that lots of Americans think Toronto is comparable to Cleveland. Europeans tend to be a little more aware of these things but even there lots of misconceptions persist.

I'm from London UK originally and from my experience perceptions and reality matchup for the most part. Europeans wouldn't view Toronto on par with London or Paris (an accurate assessment) but would view it as a prominent global city on par with Barcelona and Berlin (again an accurate assessment). That said, you'll always find people who don't have a clue about lots of things.

A London co-worker asked why the Queen was on our money. Another thought Canada was majority francophone. Even these 2 people viewed Toronto as a big global city.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

The truth is that commonwealth cities (nz, can, aus) are extremely overrated.

People that point this out are being taken to task here, owing to the amount of homers

Meanwhile most Ontarian SSPers have not visited major American cities in 25 years and think they all look like they did in 1990

Thanks for making my point.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Europeans wouldn't view Toronto on par with London or Paris (an accurate assessment) but would view it as a prominent global city on par with Barcelona and Berlin (again an accurate assessment). That said, you'll always find people who don't have a clue about lots of things.

Barcelona and Berlin have the economy/wealth of Cleveland, more or less. They're very prominent tourist cities and Berlin obviously has an incredible history, but they aren't huge economic centers. Toronto is significantly larger/wealthier but less globally prominent.

[jtown,man]

Does Toronto feel big?

Who are we asking?
My uncle, who has barely left northeast Arkansas?
My dad, who has lived in about 12 different countries around the world?
Someone who lives in Tokyo?
Someone from small town Iowa?

It's all a personal perspective. Toronto felt big to me. I visited there way back in 2012 for NYE. I went directly from Toronto to Chicago(staying in central locations in both cities). Chicago felt bigger and more important, but it wasn't like going from Little Rock Arkansas to New York. It was subtle.

Jesus, Toronto is important.

[hipster duck]

Toronto might be many things - good and bad - but one thing I would never accuse it of is "feeling small".

You can take your pick of the two types of North American "big city feel" here:

- The large downtown packed with retail and skyscrapers and a buzzy financial district is North America's third best, after NYC and Chicago. In some respects, I think it's edging into second place.

- The vast, dense, congested suburbia with wide freeways and obscure ethnic eateries in jammed strip malls is North America's second best, after LA, but ahead of Houston.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Meanwhile most Ontarian SSPers have not visited major American cities in 25 years and think they all look like they did in 1990

While I've been to other U.S cities since, I haven't visited Detroit since that exact year (1990) actually, and yes you are correct. I'm sure it does looks different.

[goldeneyed]

How big a city feels really depends on a lot of factors. We all know a lot of European cities of 1M people feel much bigger than they are because of all the pedestrian traffic and nightlife.

Boston for example doesn't feel that big to me. Driving down from Montreal on the highways, by the time you can actually visually see that you've entered the outer suburbs, you're almost downtown. This is because in the North East US, interstates are surrounded by trees and you can't see what's next to the highway. Philedelphia also didn't seem quite big either. In fact, apart from the taller buildings, their downtown felt smaller than Boston's. Meanwhile downtown Washington felt bigger than both.

As far as Toronto goes, if you're heading west on the 401, from it's non-stop developement from outside of Oshawa to Hamilton for about 90 minutes. To me the city feels huge. And from the population statistics, whether you use the urban area definition, MSA or CSA, Toronto would approximetely 7M, 8M, 10M respectively for each of those 3. That would always put in in 4th place amonsgt Canadian and American cities, right below Chicago.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I agree that globally Toronto isn't one of the big boys (Tokyo dwarfs it) but in an American/European context, Toronto is a big city.

But this is the core point many of us are trying to make: objectively, Toronto surpassed Montreal as Canada’s primary city decades ago, but subjectively-speaking, Toronto’s image among many non-Canadians has not caught up with this reality yet.

The OP of this thread reads, “When did Toronto pass Montreal?” Clearly - as is evidenced by this thread’s replies - Toronto has yet to pass Montreal in many people’s hearts and minds.

Toronto needs to do a better job at branding. It’s not top of mind when many people in key markets think “Canada”.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Hawaii? Puerto Rico would seem "exotic" to many Anglo-Canadians (and Americans alike), but is rarer as tourist destination it seems.

I'm not counting places that seem exotic from a climate/landscape perspective such as say Arizona but not as societally/culturally different, from the point of view of popular spots for Canadians.

Based on what I was responding to:

Not sure why this diverted from most prominent Canadian city into what is a more exotic weekend destination for an American.

If this were the case, then perhaps Miami, New Orleans or maybe even Las Vegas would be the most prominent American city to a Canadian.

... and not focusing too much on the "exotic", obviously NYC is the most prominent American city to most Canadians.

I actually think samne was attempting to be provocative by insinuating that what NYC offers is not that exotic because we already have similar offerings in Canada - and he probably had Toronto in mind.

I've been quite familiar with Toronto all my life, and while it's a good-bordering-on-great city, it's not really a stand-in for NYC.

(No city in Canada or the US really is.)