Downtown Milwaukee: make the quantum leap or blow the chance to go big and bold?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

On the other hand, Chicago is a bit of a curse, because why go downtown to get big city attractions and shopping when that kind of experience can be had at a much better level than Milwaukee could ever hope to achieve just 80 miles to the south?

there is a strong undercurrent of antipathy towards chicago/illinois found in milwuakee and across the entire state of wisconsin. i have no idea how one would even go about finding stats on this, but my gut tells me that there is likely a shockingly high percentage of milwaukeeans who haven't set foot in chicago in over 10 years and have no desire to ever do so again.


the real way in which chicago's proximity is a curse for milwaukee is the way that chicago tends to soak up a lot of regional offices for many corporations due its superior transportation connections to the wider world (ORD). because they are only 80 miles from each other, there are many corporations that just have a chicago presence instead of both a milwaukee and chicago location because the two cities are only a 90 minute drive/train ride from each other. if milwaukee were located 200 miles from chicago, it would would stand more on its own two feet in that regard.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

There are huge ravines with paths winding down them from the park to the lake. Some of the ravines have massive bridges over them that are probably 100' above the path. You have absolutely no idea you are in the middle of a metro of 1.5 million + when you are in that park.

those ravines over on the east side are one my most favorite milwaukee discoveries. i had no idea they were even there until two summers ago when i stayed in a rental house on the east side for a week prior to my wedding at the art museum. i had several days to really explore the east side in a way that i hadn't before, getting into all sorts of little nooks and crannies that are easily passed over in a more cursory visit. when i came upon the ravines for the first time while walking through lake park trying to find a way down to bradford beach, it was a revelation. so freaking cool to have those little hidden outposts of nature right there in the middle of the city.



this is in the city of milwaukee, about a mile or so north of downtown:


source: http://davesyaktales.blogspot.com/20...o-orlando.html

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Milwaukee really has a lot of interesting quirks. It seems that every wikipedia article on Milwaukee I read is another rabbit hole that burns up an hour of my day.

if you love milwaukee history, and if you haven't done so already, i HIGHLY recommend reading the book "The Making of Milwaukee". it's a fantastic work of urban developement history that weaves together all of the threads that we SSPers love - architecture, transportation, infrastructure, economics, politics, etc.

[LouisVanDerWright]

^^^ Haven't read it, I'll have to check it out. These are two other particularly impressive bridges in Lake Park:


photoshelter.com

I first discovered the bridges and ravines after taking this road from the top of the bluff to the bottom and going "WTF is that sweet bridge doing here":


tripadvisor.com

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

there is a strong undercurrent of antipathy towards chicago/illinois found in milwuakee and across the entire state of wisconsin. i have no idea how one would even go finding stats on this, but my gut tells me that there is likely a shockingly high percentage of milwaukeeans who haven't set foot in chicago in over 10 years and have no desire to ever do so again.

They actually have a word for people from Chicago in Wisconsin: FIBs. Stands for Fucking Illinois Bastards. It is most often used when someone from Wisconsin (where they drive 5 MPH over and ONLY 5 MPH over) is passed by someone in an Escalade doing 20 MPH over. They don't even look to check the plates, they just mutter something under their breath about the "goddamn FIBS". Honestly Wisconsinites seem to have a sixth sense for sniffing out the assholes from the big city who "come up here and trash our state parks". People in WI seem to be able to spot someone who is from Illinois from a mile away. Of course this is all hilarious seeing as how all the people from Illinois are dumping countless millions of dollars in tourist money into the state all year round.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

^^^ Haven't read it, I'll have to check it out.

I have a copy of it collecting dust on a bookshelf; I'll loan it to you if you're interested.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

there is a strong undercurrent of antipathy towards chicago/illinois found in milwuakee and across the entire state of wisconsin. i have no idea how one would even go about finding stats on this, but my gut tells me that there is likely a shockingly high percentage of milwaukeeans who haven't set foot in chicago in over 10 years and have no desire to ever do so again.

Interesting. I can see downright hostility to Chicago, urbanism, and what Chicago progressivism represents coming from the paleo-conservative suburbs and exurbs of Milwaukee. Waukesha County and Washington County voted 69 and 70% for Romney, respectively.

Do people from these counties have a hate-on for downtown Milwaukee, too? In a way these people don't represent a threat to downtown revitalization projects, but because they essentially don't participate in urban life, you can take Milwaukee's MSA population and subtract about 600,000 people (or ~ 1/3 of the MSA) and that's about the "size" of the region that downtown Milwaukee can support. I don't want to stereotype, but people from these areas usually only come downtown for sports games, and it won't be for the Bucks.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Interesting. I can see downright hostility to Chicago, urbanism, and what Chicago progressivism represents coming from the paleo-conservative suburbs and exurbs of Milwaukee. Waukesha County and Washington County voted 69 and 70% for Romney, respectively.

eh, politics probably plays into for some folks, just like how packers/bears and brewers/cubs plays into it as well, but the root cause for FIB-hatred in wisconsin is much deeper than that, it's more primal and tribal. many chicagoans treat wisconsin as chicago's largest state park and look down their noses condescendingly at the unsophisticated small town rubes who inhabit the place as they travel to every corner of the state by the millions every summer. many (most?) cheeseheads obviously resent that attitude and come to view anyone who lives in northeast illinois as some haughty self-important big city asshole who comes up to their state every summer and trashes the place.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Do people from these counties have a hate-on for downtown Milwaukee, too? In a way these people don't represent a threat to downtown revitalization projects, but because they essentially don't participate in urban life, you can take Milwaukee's MSA population and subtract about 600,000 people (or ~ 1/3 of the MSA) and that's about the "size" of the region that downtown Milwaukee can support. I don't want to stereotype, but people from these areas usually only come downtown for sports games, and it won't be for the Bucks.

generally speaking, and not unlike so many other similar amercian cities, the city of milwaukee has a fairly toxic relationship with it's collar county suburbs (borrowing a chicago term here). that conflict is largely the basis for the article that started this whole thread. the city of milwaukee has grand plans to transform downtown milwaukee on multiple fronts, but it's going to take regional funding mechanisms to make many of them a reality, and many people in the burbs, especially in collar counties like waukesha, want absolutely no part of it. my in-laws live in brookfield in waukesha county, and it's a pretty terrifying place if you happen to fall anywhere left of rush limbaugh on the political spectrum.

can metro milwaukee come together as a region and act regionally to make the necessary investments in downtown to take it to the next level?

that is the million dollar question.

[JoeMusashi]

The 'FIB' stuff is taken more seriously in Northern Wisconsin and rural areas. People from Chicagoland take over Wisconsin much of the summer and that gets under the skin of some people. They fish the lakes, snowmobile the trails in winter, hunt in fall, bring their boats/jetskis up, rent up the cabins/hotels on weekends, inflate prices, buy property, jam the roads with the SUV they bought from Knauz (always a Lexus, Escalade, BMW, Land Rover, etc), and fill restaurants/bars. It's a great thing for the economy. I can't imagine this being to different from other tourist areas around the country though, where the townies/locals are irked by the behavior of outsiders. Hawaiians are supposedly notorious for this, as are Floridians by those flocking south from New York.

I have never noticed any of this here in Milwaukee or in most of Wisconsin. Much of it is good natured ribbing involving sports or state rivalries. It goes both ways. Not that different in the western part of the state, with the Twin Cities across the river. Unlike the touristy areas of the Wisconsin, we encounter different sorts of Illinoisans on a regular basis. Most of them are cool people.

[JoeMusashi]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Interesting. I can see downright hostility to Chicago, urbanism, and what Chicago progressivism represents coming from the paleo-conservative suburbs and exurbs of Milwaukee. Waukesha County and Washington County voted 69 and 70% for Romney, respectively.

Do people from these counties have a hate-on for downtown Milwaukee, too? In a way these people don't represent a threat to downtown revitalization projects, but because they essentially don't participate in urban life, you can take Milwaukee's MSA population and subtract about 600,000 people (or ~ 1/3 of the MSA) and that's about the "size" of the region that downtown Milwaukee can support. I don't want to stereotype, but people from these areas usually only come downtown for sports games, and it won't be for the Bucks.

There isn't really any hostility towards Chicago from them. The usual criticism of Chicago/Illinois politics but that isn't unique to Wisconsin. Also some criticism of the poor people from Chicago that moved up here in the past to milk some of our generous government benefits/programs. I believe that was more of an issue in the 80's-90s than it is today.

I know this forum likes to jab at suburban Republicans but these people tend to have the disposable income in Milwaukee. They are the people taking their daughters to the American Girl Store on Michigan Ave, going to see concerts/shows that we don't get in Milwaukee, staying overnight, taking their kids to Six Flags Great America, and traveling to sporting events at Soldier Field/Wrigley Field/Chicagoland Speedway. The things that people dislike about going to Chicago are the tolls, the high parking costs, and traffic. Other than that, people love having Chicago nearby. It is a huge perk living in Milwaukee, having access to big city amenities we would otherwise be shut out of.

As for downtown Milwaukee, suburbanites will go down there for shows, festivals, and sporting events. The problem is convincing them to open up their wallets to pay for improvements. Milwaukee isn't a very sprawly metro area. It is pretty compact and many people live on the fringe of the city limits. Regardless, a bitter rivalry exists between the city and most of the suburbs. This has killed every transit improvement proposal, likely including the streetcar.

[mhays]

Every city has a suburb/core divide. Maybe local rhetoric is a sizeable factor in voting things down, as that can help define an issue for generations. Maybe it's about a lower percentage of jobs in the core (Chicago being the opposite). Also how's the local transit agency's (or agencies') reputation for managing money and projects well?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

Every city has a suburb/core divide.

of course, but the degree of that divide matters too. things like geography (both political and physical), history, segregation (both race and class), and other factors can affect how deep and wide the suburb/core chasm is.

in milwaukee's case, as an outside observer, its suburb/core divide seems worse than chicago's, but not as bad as detroit's. one thing that hurts milwaukee on the transit front is that it doesn't suffer from crippling expressway congestion the way that bigger cities like chicago do, so getting suburbanites to pony up money for regional transit solutions is a much tougher sell. in chicagoland, many suburbanites, even those who don't personally use transit, can be talked into spending money on it because it can help take cars off of the roads. there seems to be more "for the greater good" understanding in chicagoland compared to milwaukeeland ( ) which seems to be much more "us vs. them".

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

I don't mean to steal Milwaukee's thunder because I think it's a gem of a city that deserves attention, but, IMO, the real story in Wisconsin is the breakout success of Madison. Dane County (2013 population ~510,000) grew by over 20,000 in the last three years alone, half of which was attributable to Madison proper (2013 population ~244,000). SSC has a dedicated Madison thread, and it seems like it's development left and right there.

[ardecila]

^ Well yeah, you (Madison) have a huge and renowned university, a spectacular natural setting, and healthy investment in quality of life, you're gonna reap the benefit in growth.

Chicago certainly used to have a much more toxic relationship with its suburbs in the era of white flight, but now many of the region's elites live in the city, and families that once shunned the corruption and crime of the city now have children who are living there. Even suburban retirees are flocking to the city, because living in the suburbs without kids or a job sucks hard. We've definitely seen a huge city-suburb detante since 1990.

Milwaukee still has some of that toxic relationship, because the city hasn't attracted the region's elite in significant numbers yet, despite a swath of gentrified, trendy neighborhoods along the lakefront.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by ardecila

^ Well yeah, you (Madison) have a huge and renowned university, a spectacular natural setting, and healthy investment in quality of life, you're gonna reap the benefit in growth.

in addition to all of that, madison's charmed existence owes a great debt of gratitude to the fact that it was never an industrial city. that meant that madison never attracted a large black population from the south during the great migrations and, subsequently, was never hit by the 1-2 punch of white flight and deindustrialization that devastated milwaukee and all of the other "real" cities in the midwest.

madison is great and all, but it has never had to contend with the serious urban/social challenges that cities like milwaukee have been confronting for several generations now. as a state capital/overgrown college town urban shangri-la, madison's success doesn't really impress me that much compared to a city like milwaukee that really has to work its freaking ass off for all of its successes. madison was born with silver spoon in hand by comparison.

[LouisVanDerWright]

^^^ Exactly, how can you possibly not be a success when you have one of the largest, highest quality, research universities in the world, are the seat of State government, and are sited in an picturesque setting on an isthmus between two lakes? The isthmus is hugely important to Madison in that it keeps development somewhat constrained so that people build up rather than out. This means the city is far more pedestrian friendly and urban than just about any other 250,000 person city in the country. It also made it virtually impossible to build anything even remotely resembling a freeway through the city center essentially guaranteeing that the car isn't a great way to get around town.


The biggest fuckup in Madison's history was not doing everything they could to lock Epic into building their new HQ on the Isthmus. It is my understanding that the deal killer way, wait for it, the stupid height limit imposed on the city. If you've ever seen what is going on at Epic (there are 7 to 8 tower cranes up there at all times) Madison should be totally kicking themselves. They could have probably seen three or four 25-40 floor skyscrapers built in the last 5 years for Epic alone if they had lifted that height limit. Epic now employs nearly 5,000 in their Verona campus alone and is showing no signs of slowing down. There are massive suburban developments going up all over the place in farm fields around Verona, if Madison had kept Epic in the city limits that would likely have translated to dozens of dense apartment midrises and highrises.

[IMBY]

Originally Posted by mello

You can look to downtown San Diego as a comparison it has had more than "A few towers" built in the last 14 years and a downtown ballpark perfectly placed and it still isn't a super vibrant downtown outside of the Gaslamp District and Little Italy on the North End of DT for a couple of blocks.

I'm not dissing my city but after business hours most sections of downtown are not really that busy with pedestrians at all. There are a lot of homeless out

Milwaukee doesn't have the competition San Diego has: A red light/bar district in Tijuana! And a light rail train to the Border which makes it so easy!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by IMBY

Milwaukee doesn't have the competition San Diego has: A red light/bar district in Tijuana! And a light rail train to the Border which makes it so easy!

In Milwaukee's case, just south of the border there is Waukegan, IL!

ok, yeah, no.........