Atlantic Highways Thread

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Franco401

Reread my post. I want to reinstate tools on Route 2 in River Glade and in Pokiok, as well as somewhere on the twinned Route 11, not just 7.

Yes, tolls on TCH 2 are justifiable. You just have to place the toll booths in locations where they do the least harm to local residents. This is just as much for doing the least economic harm to the local area as it is for political expediency.

For example, I would not put a toll booth immediately at the NB/NS border. There is too much back and forth traffic between Amherst and Sackville. It would also stifle northern Nova Scotians from conducting their retail business in Moncton (and there is a lot of that). Moncton is closer than Halifax for people from Amherst/Springhill, and easier to get around.

I think tolls should be collected at a point just west of the TCH2/NB1 interchange at Salisbury. The only traffic on the TCH at that point is long distance traffic to western NB, and especially the ROC. Tolls here would do the least economic harm to NB residents, but would still impact all of the drive through traffic from NS/PEI to the rest of the world.

As for a collection point in western NB, wouldn't a toll booth in Pokiok be a hardship to upper river valley residents? I would wonder that a better collection point might be right at the NB/PQ border. Is there that much local cross border traffic between Edmundston and Quebec? If I'm wrong on this, then my second proposal would be to place the western toll collection point somewhere just to the north of Grand Falls instead. There are lots of local road options here to allow local residents to avoid the toll collection point.

Finally, there should be toll booths on NB95 near the US border and on NB1, also within a couple of kms of the customs station as well. The intent again is to target through traffic while impacting local residents to the minimum possible level.

So there you have it. I would support strategic toll booths and would have no more than four collection points in the province. Through traffic would pay twice on the way through the province, once at Salisbury and then once again either on NB1 or NB95 near the US border, or in northern NB on the way through to PQ. Make the tolls $10 per segment so that through traffic would pay $20 to pass through the province.

I wonder how much money this would generate for the provincial coffers?

[josh_cat_eyes]

I don't like the tolls going to the border, then any people would feel like they have to pay to leave or enter the country. I do support small tolls on Route 7 through Gagetown if that were to be twined, route 2 just west of highway 1 and again just north of Hartland

[mylesmalley]

Let's not forget the whole point of putting tolls on roads - revenue generation.

The idea of positioning toll plazas in places that minimize their impact on local users is entirely counter-productive. The whole point of tolls is to generate revenue to offset costs from use. Some scheme to 'help out' some people is just costing the province potential revenue and is still going to piss people off. Same goes for putting a toll plaza before Rt 1 and Rt 2 split - passing up double the traffic for the cost of one toll plaza seems like a pretty dumb idea to me.

Then there's the idea of what constitutes a fair toll. Is the $4 toll at the Cobequid Pass really that onerous? Given that the Trans-Canada is twice as long in New Brunswick as the tolled highway in Nova Scotia, is paying $12-16 for a car trip out of the question? The Maine Turnpike costs $7 end to end and it's barely 150km long! They levy tolls 7 or 8 times along it's length rather than once.

If it were up to me, I'd go for lower tolls but have them all over the place on all divided highways. One before and after each city (eg. Salisbury, Memramcook and Scoudouc for Moncton). Travelling from end to end on the TCH would cost you $10-15. More frequent tolls makes it harder to avoid them by taking alternative routes, catches commuters from far afield, but also minimizes the hit for people who live just past the toll (it would be totally unfair if you had to pay $3 to drive to Moncton from Petitcodiac but not unfair if you paid $1 three times on your way from Saint John to Moncton).

From an administration point of view, 10 toll plazas is less efficient than 3, but it would be a lot more equitable and efficient at charging for highway usage. It would also create a certain amount of local employment.

And really, you don't even necessarily need to have toll plazas. Hwy 407 in Toronto sends you a bill in the mail based on your license plate. You get scanned every time you enter or exit the highway.

[emad]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

...
As for a collection point in western NB, wouldn't a toll booth in Pokiok be a hardship to upper river valley residents? I would wonder that a better collection point might be right at the NB/PQ border. Is there that much local cross border traffic between Edmundston and Quebec? If I'm wrong on this, then my second proposal would be to place the western toll collection point somewhere just to the north of Grand Falls instead. There are lots of local road options here to allow local residents to avoid the toll collection point.

...

I'm also in favor of tolls. But being from Edmundston (actually St-Jacques, which is the last town before the border with QC), a toll right at the border wouldn't make more sense because of the cross border traffic in the same context as it wouldn't make sense at the NB/NS border. The first city comparable in size to Edmundston in QC is Rivière-Du-Loup which is a 1h drive from the border, so Edmundston get some business from the first towns in QC.

More importantly, all the NBers going to the border to get their beer for a fraction of the price would be impacted You're looking at some opposition rigth there

I don't think that a toll section should be before Grand-Falls in NB to have no impact on the locals.

[yakra]

So, now that the Marysville bypass has opened, at least part of old Route 8 is now Route 148. Google shows 148 following old Route 8 all the way down to Bridge St, connecting to the new bypass at the south end. OpenStreetMap, OTOH, shows it following Killarney Rd to Route 105. What's the actual routing of 148? Many thanks!

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Let's not forget the whole point of putting tolls on roads - revenue generation.

...

Yes, I agree in most cases. The Pokiok location I suggested was intended to make the most money possible as that is the only location on the TCH where the old TCH (now the 102) does not exist as the old route was twinned instead of bypassed. The reason I put the other one WEST of Route 1 because of the history. When the section of highway from Longs Creek to Moncton opened, the tolls were a source of controversy, as Bernard Lord promised to remove them and won the election in a landslide. The tolls were removed and replaced with a tax. In my opinion, as well as that of many others, if they were west of Route 1 instead of the original location EAST of Rt.1, they would not be capturing traffic from Saint John and would bother less people.

Another solution is reinstate tolls in the old location but at a very low price ($1.50) and add more tolls just past the two bridges, in addition to the twinned 11 and 7.

Originally Posted by yakra

So, now that the Marysville bypass has opened, at least part of old Route 8 is now Route 148. Google shows 148 following old Route 8 all the way down to Bridge St, connecting to the new bypass at the south end. OpenStreetMap, OTOH, shows it following Killarney Rd to Route 105. What's the actual routing of 148? Many thanks!

I heard it followed the entire old route, but haven't seen it yet. I'll drive over on the weekend if I can.

[MonctonRad]

More toll stations = more aggravation for drivers.

It would be better to have fewer toll booths and at widely spaced intervals (but with higher tolls).

We do not want to disrupt historical patterns of commerce and retail. This will only enrage the local travelling public (read electorate).

Exactly who is it that we want to tax?? I would say that the general public would want to tax those who are the beneficiaries of our infrastructure but who either don't pay for it (non residents), or who don't adequately pay for it (commercial truck drivers).

There is no question that 18 wheelers disproportionately damage our roadways. These users of the system are forced to travel on the freeways for intercity commerce. A couple of toll booths on isolated sections of the highway will allow the government to (fairly) tax them for the damage they do, but still allow Granny from Woodstock to get to her doctor's appointment in Fredericton without additional financial penalty.

No, I remain firmly convinced that we can accomplish all we need to do with only four tolling stations. We can easily tax non-residents, tourists and commercial truckers without unduly disrupting the lives of ordinary citizens.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Wouldn't one single place be enough? I mean NS only has one toll on their highways. A 5 dollar toll just west of Route 1 on Route 2 would create plenty of revenue I'm sure!

[JHikka]

The difference between tolling the Cobequid Pass and tolling New Brunswick highways is that many still remember the old highway going through that section of Nova Scotia and are completely willing to pay to use the Cobequid. The old road was a winding, spiralling highway through the Wentworth Valley, which was both dangerous and lengthy. If you just place tolls on current highways in NB that have been toll-free for quite some time you'll face an extreme amount of opposition. If the Government were smart (big if, of course) they would add tolls to any newer sections of highway that significantly improve upon older, more dangerous/time-consuming roads.

As an example, I would have been totally ok with paying a small $2 toll if it meant I didn't have to drive through Welsford on Route 7, and I know many others who are glad they can now avoid what was easily the worst part of that drive.

Originally Posted by emad

More importantly, all the NBers going to the border to get their beer for a fraction of the price would be impacted You're looking at some opposition rigth there

I don't mean to be a downer but, if NBers are crossing the border to buy their alcohol in Quebec, Alcohol NB is losing revenue to Quebec retailers and this does nothing to support the NB economy whatsoever. Same with people who skip down to Bangor for shopping weekends.

[emad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

...

I don't mean to be a downer but, if NBers are crossing the border to buy their alcohol in Quebec, Alcohol NB is losing revenue to Quebec retailers and this does nothing to support the NB economy whatsoever. Same with people who skip down to Bangor for shopping weekends.

That's what happen when you give a monopoly to Alcohol NB and they charge a significant amount more money...

Edmundston is geographically position to save on beer by crossing to QC and save on gas by crossing to Maine. So much for encouraging local economy...

[L'homard]

One of my points (though I didn't mention it at the time) in arguing in favour of tolls at border crossings is exactly that, to catch (among everyone else) those who cross borders to shop.

[Taeolas]

Tolls should be done, but if Gallant is going to go that route, he should try to figure out how he wants to do them and do them FAST (within a year, preferably before next Summer). At the start of his term is probably the better time to do that (especially since it was a non issue in the election), so that by the end of the term, it's a fait accompli, and harder for the opposition to use against him.

[bornagainbiking]

A friend told me recently that they are checking vehicles like trucks and vans on the NB side of PQ border checking for people stocking up on beer.
A mid NB highway toll would be acceptable as that highway is the best one on the Maritime drive and would help to antain tha level of quality.
To Drive from Buffalo to NB has multiple tolls (every state) and adds up to about $20.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by bornagainbiking

A friend told me recently that they are checking vehicles like trucks and vans on the NB side of PQ border checking for people stocking up on beer.
A mid NB highway toll would be acceptable as that highway is the best one on the Maritime drive and would help to antain tha level of quality.
To Drive from Buffalo to NB has multiple tolls (every state) and adds up to about $20.

You can refuse a search if they don't have probably cause. Ridiculous that they are even bothering to uphold this law.

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

And really, you don't even necessarily need to have toll plazas. Hwy 407 in Toronto sends you a bill in the mail based on your license plate. You get scanned every time you enter or exit the highway.

I never did get my bill from driving on that in July.

[L'homard]

Originally Posted by bornagainbiking

A friend told me recently that they are checking vehicles like trucks and vans on the NB side of PQ border checking for people stocking up on beer.

The latest info I had on that topic was the Mounties were told to ignore all but the most eggregious cases of bringing beer across the border, ie, the ones bootlegging it or selling it in legit bars.
Your friend might have old info. Or maybe I do.
This law is being challenged in court.

[benvui]

It looks like work has begun clearing the land for the new interchange between Route 15 and Route 11 in Shediac. They have been clearing trees for the past week in the median of Route 15 west of the current interchange and clearing on the north side of the highway has begun also.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by benvui

It looks like work has begun clearing the land for the new interchange between Route 15 and Route 11 in Shediac. They have been clearing trees for the past week in the median of Route 15 west of the current interchange and clearing on the north side of the highway has begun also.

Am I muted?

[Franco401]

With all of these projects being talked about just in the last week or so, I thought I'd make an overview of all these projects. A few of these are either/or projects, meaning they would only be made if another one is not. I also included the toll booths everyone is talking about for NB. All of these are either government-approved projects, ideas from this thread or other thread and a couple are ones I came up with by myself.



Forgot to add a caption, but the Caraquet bypass is in there too.

[Taeolas]

Show's how Freddy centric I am. I hear 3rd Bridge and I figure it's for Freddy. I never thought that Saint John needs a 3rd bridge too.