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  #81  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 3:28 PM
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Guys, we're talking about looking for a better urban environment then Denver for dear Ryan. SLC and Boise are certainly not that.

I can't recall, but has Philly been mentioned as a possible place? Cheaper than Chicago and the links to the other major urban centers along the Eastern seaboard would make for increased work for a photographer like Ryan. Chicago isn't isolated, but it's not in the East Coast megalopolis.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 7:16 PM
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^ Bingo.

I'm a bang for your buck kinda guy. Philly has been mentioned and that's been on my list since about 2011. I just looked up condos in both cities and got sad. lol
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  #83  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 7:38 PM
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^
Don't constrain yourself to condos. Condos pop up when other types of things are in short supply, but both Chicago and Philly have a lot of affordable actual houses, so there aren't that many condos.

I just ran a redfin search on properties in Philadelphia under $150,000. Here's what I found:
106 condos
301 detached houses
2,636 rowhouses

If I were you, I'd concentrate on those rowhouses. Philly is the king of rowhouse cities.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 7:46 PM
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Condos also pop up when people want shorter proximity or a higher level of urbanity, and/or don't want to deal with houses/townhouses.

Townhouses in Philly can be walkable to Center City but most require transit etc. That's a different sort of lifestyle than a mostly-walkable one.
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 7:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
^
Don't constrain yourself to condos. Condos pop up when other types of things are in short supply, but both Chicago and Philly have a lot of affordable actual houses, so there aren't that many condos.

I just ran a redfin search on properties in Philadelphia under $150,000. Here's what I found:
106 condos
301 detached houses
2,636 rowhouses

If I were you, I'd concentrate on those rowhouses. Philly is the king of rowhouse cities.
I need to get out to Philly... I've been meaning to for so long. I think that's where my next trip is! And we'll see if the fiancee likes it.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 10:20 PM
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Philly sucks.

A much more urban city than Denver, but the quality of life is terrible out there, especially compared to Denver
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
Philly sucks.

A much more urban city than Denver, but the quality of life is terrible out there, especially compared to Denver
Define quality of life? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2015, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanD View Post
Define quality of life? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Too many poor people? :

I've been to Philly a couple of times and thought that it was a great spot of urbanity, especially for the price.
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Last edited by wong21fr; Jul 6, 2015 at 10:58 PM.
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 1:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanD View Post
Define quality of life? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
The weather is not as nice as Denver, the outdoor recreation opportunities are nothing compared to Denver, there are no mountains, people are not as friendly, there are more overweight / obese people, the economy is not as strong as Denver. It is a typical east coast dump.

And yes Wong, there are a lot of ghetto areas in Philadelphia, which actually does negatively impact quality of life.
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 1:26 AM
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Lol. Scott is arrogant about making Ryan's decision for Ryan
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  #91  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 2:09 AM
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Heaven is an REI full of fit wealthy white people. Obviously.
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 4:40 AM
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Ugh, not this again.
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 6:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Condos also pop up when people want shorter proximity or a higher level of urbanity, and/or don't want to deal with houses/townhouses.

Townhouses in Philly can be walkable to Center City but most require transit etc. That's a different sort of lifestyle than a mostly-walkable one.
Eh... sort of. But only sort of. Obviously if you have a job in downtown then proximity to downtown is an important factor. But "condo" is not synonymous with "downtown." Every city in America has plenty of condos outside downtown that are in far less walkable environs than rowhouse neighborhoods. Meanwhile, ability to walk to shopping, dining, and other errands is just as if not more important than commuting, and in those areas rowhouse neighborhoods usually beat the pants off most highrise clusters or downtowns.

This is one of the big differences between the urbanity of rowhouse cities and the urbanity of non-rowhouse cities. In non-rowhouse cities, downtown is usually as good as it gets. But in rowhouse cities, the best, densest, and most walkable neighborhoods are often better, denser, and more walkable than downtown, or than highrise clusters outside of downtown.

For example, this neighborhood is denser than this one. That happens because rowhouse neighborhoods have tighter streets and fill every nook and cranny with English basements and carriage houses, while highrises are stuck with huge lobbies, on-site gyms, and parking garages. And because many of the rowhouses are split up into apartments or condos.

I was admittedly oversimplifying to imply that condos only pop up when there aren't enough rowhouses. There are places you'd always want to build an elevator building. But it's just as much of an oversimplification to imply that condos are closer, more urban, or more walkable.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 2:29 PM
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Stenar, I deleted your post. Not having a SLC v. Denver / everywhere else conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
The weather is not as nice as Denver
Don't care. I like winter fashion, and actually breaking out my coat / sweaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
the outdoor recreation opportunities are nothing compared to Denver, there are no mountains
Everyone has different outdoor recreation tastes. Mine are urban. I'll ride my bike and 'hike' as much as, actually more, than I would in the mountains. No value difference to me here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
people are not as friendly, there are more overweight / obese people
Also don't care. I'm engaged, soon to be married to someone I find incredible both inside and out. I like unfriendly / not fake / straight up people. Whenever I visit the east coast, the people are amazing. My style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
the economy is not as strong as Denver. It is a typical east coast dump.

And yes Wong, there are a lot of ghetto areas in Philadelphia, which actually does negatively impact quality of life.
So why do 6 million (more than twice Denver) live there. Something has to be kind of right about that place. Sure they aren't on a huge ass upward spike like Denver but they're holding steady. Oh yeah, they have housing stock because they built right.

Oh and, I hate to say it, Central Denver is starting to lack culture on a very quick clip. I wonder why.... Build / cater to one class, you get a milky white city with overpriced rentals and no for sale housing because 'the market is fine', 'we love our property values', 'millennials can't afford to buy anyway'.

Sorry Denver, I can afford to buy a home (in a desirable area(!), with a nice unit not in a basement), just not here.
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Last edited by RyanD; Jul 7, 2015 at 2:45 PM.
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Eh... sort of. But only sort of. Obviously if you have a job in downtown then proximity to downtown is an important factor. But "condo" is not synonymous with "downtown." Every city in America has plenty of condos outside downtown that are in far less walkable environs than rowhouse neighborhoods. Meanwhile, ability to walk to shopping, dining, and other errands is just as if not more important than commuting, and in those areas rowhouse neighborhoods usually beat the pants off most highrise clusters or downtowns.

This is one of the big differences between the urbanity of rowhouse cities and the urbanity of non-rowhouse cities. In non-rowhouse cities, downtown is usually as good as it gets. But in rowhouse cities, the best, densest, and most walkable neighborhoods are often better, denser, and more walkable than downtown, or than highrise clusters outside of downtown.

For example, this neighborhood is denser than this one. That happens because rowhouse neighborhoods have tighter streets and fill every nook and cranny with English basements and carriage houses, while highrises are stuck with huge lobbies, on-site gyms, and parking garages. And because many of the rowhouses are split up into apartments or condos.

I was admittedly oversimplifying to imply that condos only pop up when there aren't enough rowhouses. There are places you'd always want to build an elevator building. But it's just as much of an oversimplification to imply that condos are closer, more urban, or more walkable.
True, not just downtowns, and density varies. But condos (any true multifamily) can have peak densities in the hundreds or even 1,000+ units per acre. They don't have to be the pseudo-suburban kind with parking podiums.

The lifestyle point is significant. I'm in the category that would never want a townhouse to take care of, even while I find good ones pleasant as neighborhoods and to live in (as a houseguest).

As for Philly, good city. The south half of Downtown is pretty much urban heaven, and it just keeps going. To the north it turns slummy pretty quickly though even that shows signs of revival in places, and isn't terribly bombed out compared to some conceptions.
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 4:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanD View Post
Oh and, I hate to say it, Central Denver is starting to lack culture on a very quick clip. I wonder why.... Build / cater to one class, you get a milky white city with overpriced rentals and no for sale housing because 'the market is fine', 'we love our property values', 'millennials can't afford to buy anyway'.
Denver has culture, it's just a homogeneous sort of mass-market culture. But that's applicable for most other cities as well. The areas of culture generally started off as neighborhoods that were built to cater to one class or ethnic group, reached critical mass, became popular, and were quickly gutted culture-wise as the more affluent (which means white) quickly moved in. It's just a lot more noticeable in a smaller city like Denver with high growth versus a large city like Chicago or Philly with little to negative growth.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays
But condos (any true multifamily) can have peak densities in the hundreds or even 1,000+ units per acre.
True, but that's hardly the rule. Regardless, it's absolutely true that there is a class of American cities (which includes Philadelphia) where the rowhouse stock is so affordable so that's very significantly depressing demand for multifamily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
As for Philly, good city. The south half of Downtown is pretty much urban heaven, and it just keeps going. To the north it turns slummy pretty quickly though even that shows signs of revival in places, and isn't terribly bombed out compared to some conceptions.
It shows signs of revival in a lot more places than it did 10 years ago, just like every city. Looking at Streetview, I see a lot of BMWs parked outside houses near the Eastern State Penitentiary, and Northern Liberties is a total affordable hipster haven right now - Philly's Brooklyn from when Brooklyn was still affordable. But sure, Philly does still have large poor neighborhoods the likes of which Denver has never had.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 9:23 PM
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Pittsburgh is awesome, and I've heard Cincinnatti is very affordable and has an incredible stock of historic architecture and built urban environment. The second tier rust belt cities will have some seriously good value, and great old housing stock.

You can spend some time on here: www.granolashotgun.com

My wife and I are strongly considering Chicago as well, and St. Louis.
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  #99  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2015, 9:57 PM
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Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Saint Louis (plus more like Baltimore and Milwaukee) are affordable but are more of a lateral move urbanistically from Denver. They have better bones than Denver but are more depressed as well, so it sort of evens out. In any event, if you want a clear step up from Denver, those aren't the places to go. If you're just looking for a decent city that's affordable, then sure.
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  #100  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2015, 9:23 AM
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If you want a more urban city than Denver you're going to have to pay more. Paying more means a crappier home and by the time you get to a nice city you'll be living in a van down by the river. jk

But really just stay where you are because Denver is nice for how much you pay
     
     
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