Atlanta Beltline

[Street Advocate]

“As he explained, those losses are significant. “We have included the expected full-year impact of Motional’s losses in our current outlook: a non-cash equity loss of approximately $340 million or $1.20 of earnings per share.””
https://www.iotworldtoday.com/transp...cker-pulls-out

[testarossa50]

My main objection to the Beltline in general is that it fails badly the basic requirement of safely facilitating movement of its users today. It’s madness mixing bikes, scooters, people walking dogs, strollers, drunk people, runners, kids, and everybody else in a very insufficiently narrow path. This would not fly in the European cities we are trying so hard to emulate—they have dedicated bike lanes on sidewalks a hundredth as crowded as the Beltline.

This needs to be fixed really, really badly.

[ArchKid]

Originally Posted by Julien

Looks like the Beltline could get EV autonomous pods kinda like the Hopper at Truist Park instead of Streetcar. I brought this up a few weeks ago and kinda got a little public stoning. As I said I understand the "romanticism" of rail but autonomous is sooooo much cheeper, easer and way more flexible and could be installed all the way around. Plus as tech improves could be used to assess any point on Beltline form any point in the city.

OT: Today I drove Full Self Driving from Ansley Mall parking lot down Monroe to North and across to GA Tech/Techwood, meandered through campus with all the construction, peds and VRUs, came out on Hemphill on 10th to State St and back home in Atlantic Station without a single disengagement. Autonomous driving is getting close.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/alt-m...g-the-beltline

If these autonomous vehicles could hover and travel in the air, I could accept it. But setting up a dedicated lane for them to travel back and forth alongside Beltline, I'm sorry, I can't accept that!

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

Stop trying to make autonomous pods happen, they're not going to happen.

https://beltline.org/wp-content/uplo...INAL-DRAFT.pdf

The beltline transit study was done in 2019 and already looked at all the alternative options, and it was settle that streetcar extension was the preferred option. It is so embarrassing for journalism in Atlanta that none of the news agencies talking to the mayor and getting these soundbites is willing to hold his feet to the fire and ask why he has chosen to ignore the already completed study and start a whole new one. Is it because he didn't like the answer on the last one? Or is it a delay tactic to try and derail the momentum and hope transit just dies out? The automation section of the study delved into why small autonomous pods would not make sense on the beltline.

[RocketSurgeon]

I told y'all rail wasn't happening ... the only thing that surprises me is how quickly they admitted it

[Julien]

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

I told y'all rail wasn't happening ... the only thing that surprises me is how quickly they admitted it

I'm not overly promoting EV Pods and I'm fine with the way it is. Love the Beltline as a Ped/VRU only. Streetcars just seems to be such a waste of money ESPECIALLY when you consider it was almost $100M for 2.7 miles and ridership is only a little over 100 people a day average last year.

And the limited Beltline extension is expected to cost $230M that MARTA could desperately use elsewhere. Just imagine how much it would cost to cover all 33 miles of the Beltline.

My point is before poring ¼ of a billon dollars down the toilet for a few people to ride on a small section of the Beltline a better option is to spend a fraction of that amount on EV Pods and cover all 33 miles OR BETTER yet leave it as is.

[tinyslam]

Ah the ol' it goes no where and costs too much argument. That's the problem most transit advocates predicted when you start what should be an extensive interconnected system with a small loop in traffic. Building a big loop with its own right of way around the entire beltline that connects to heavy rail stations is not comparable to today's streetcar loop. The capacity of light rail might not even be enough at peak times. If I were to do it all over I would have cut and covered the beltline with heavy rail below, but that's not an option now. What is an option is using the space that is already available/set aside for light rail.

Mass transit is a public service. Cost alone should not dictate whether it is built or not. If the city continues to grow and densify we will need even more investments in mass transit beyond the beltline streetcar loop. Autonomous vehicles are not the answer to congestion.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by Julien

I'm not overly promoting EV Pods and I'm fine with the way it is. Love the Beltline as a Ped/VRU only. Streetcars just seems to be such a waste of money ESPECIALLY when you consider it was almost $100M for 2.7 miles and ridership is only a little over 100 people a day average last year.

And the limited Beltline extension is expected to cost $230M that MARTA could desperately use elsewhere. Just imagine how much it would cost to cover all 33 miles of the Beltline.

My point is before poring ¼ of a billon dollars down the toilet for a few people to ride on a small section of the Beltline a better option is to spend a fraction of that amount on EV Pods and cover all 33 miles OR BETTER yet leave it as is.

yes, the current streetcar line does not go anywhere truly useful, yet. it's also slow because it gets stuck in traffic. the whole point of putting it on the beltline covers both of these issues.

it will finally go somewhere (downtown to the burgeoning office/retail subdistrict that is O4W as well as the beltline in general) and it will have its own right of way which will make it much faster along that stretch (at least a consistent 20mph) when it doesn't have to fight traffic lights and parked cars.

transit is expensive, but this is actually very much on the cheaper side of things comparatively. heavy rail is many times more expensive to build. the right of way exists, and gravel's original intention included a tram running alongside the path.

[stepover]

Originally Posted by Julien

I'm not overly promoting EV Pods and I'm fine with the way it is. Love the Beltline as a Ped/VRU only. Streetcars just seems to be such a waste of money ESPECIALLY when you consider it was almost $100M for 2.7 miles and ridership is only a little over 100 people a day average last year.

And the limited Beltline extension is expected to cost $230M that MARTA could desperately use elsewhere. Just imagine how much it would cost to cover all 33 miles of the Beltline.

My point is before poring ¼ of a billon dollars down the toilet for a few people to ride on a small section of the Beltline a better option is to spend a fraction of that amount on EV Pods and cover all 33 miles OR BETTER yet leave it as is.

Agreed, why not think outside the box a bit. Just because light rail has been around for over 100 years doesn't mean that is the only option. If you figure it takes at least 5 years at the earliest to build out light rail (we all know it will be longer). Is it really that hard to believe 5 years from now there won't be a viable autonomous solution that can move people at scale that won't cost 100s of millions of dollars? How can anyone say that definitely is imposible.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

And a certain blowhard said we'd have sent people to Mars by 2024... Just saying something doesn't make it true, and certainly shouldn't be doing nothing for some mythical pipedream.

The reason which the study says that autonomous vehicles can't work on the beltline is there is too much foot traffic that many small vehicles would have constant conflicts with pedestrians at crossings, whereas having only a few larger vehicles passing through does not. It had nothing to do with the technology not yet existing in their analysis.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by stepover

Agreed, why not think outside the box a bit. Just because light rail has been around for over 100 years doesn't mean that is the only option. If you figure it takes at least 5 years at the earliest to build out light rail (we all know it will be longer). Is it really that hard to believe 5 years from now there won't be a viable autonomous solution that can move people at scale that won't cost 100s of millions of dollars? How can anyone say that definitely is imposible.

I think we should consider the ‘boring company’ solution. They have implemented a full autonomous underground link in Las Vegas. It is the future, and we should abandon older technology for something modern. I guess it is not a proven technology, but heck, it will show that our politicians pick a technology that is best in the long run and they think outside the box of sanity.

[stepover]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

And a certain blowhard said we'd have sent people to Mars by 2024... Just saying something doesn't make it true, and certainly shouldn't be doing nothing for some mythical pipedream.

The reason which the study says that autonomous vehicles can't work on the beltline is there is too much foot traffic that many small vehicles would have constant conflicts with pedestrians at crossings, whereas having only a few larger vehicles passing through does not. It had nothing to do with the technology not yet existing in their analysis.

Not sure what this has to do with SpaceX but, I guess it's some dig at cutting edge technology? SpaceX btw had more launches last year than all other launch providers/nation states combined. They also have sent 50 people to orbit where Boeing is still years behind. Starlink is rapidly expanding Globally. Starship will successfully be launching Starlink this year and there will be no satellite Internet provider competition after that.

Going to Mars economically is a very hard problem to solve. Why do you think we haven't been back to the moon since 1972? Any idea?

Or maybe you're trying to make some connection to Tesla FSD? The levels of complexity between autonomous street driving and a set planned path are not even in the same stratosphere.

Why does it have to be pods? Why can't it be higher capacity options mentioned above? I tried to find estimates of cost for a 22 mile loop of light rail and only found about $450 M for 3 miles. So 22 miles is north of $3 billion? If you have better numbers please let me know but, at that cost I would say smart government should at least explore all options.

It's not like Marta is some amazing train system. I take it everyday for work, very convenient for me. In the winter It's almost always late, either for mechanical problems or staff not showing up. The stations smell of urine, people blast music, and the homeless use it for sleeper trains. The money saved on alternative solutions could be used to make the ridership experience much better and higher use.

[stepover]

Originally Posted by montydawg

I think we should consider the ‘boring company’ solution. They have implemented a full autonomous underground link in Las Vegas. It is the future, and we should abandon older technology for something modern. I guess it is not a proven technology, but heck, it will show that our politicians pick a technology that is best in the long run and they think outside the box of sanity.

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm. How is boring tunnels under Vegas remotely related to an autonomous vehicle on a dedicated track? There are many other companies besides Tesla working on autonomous vehicles btw. This would be probably one of the simplest use cases to solve, again way easier then city street driving.

Should we have payphones on the Beltline also?

If autonomous vehicles are viable which no one can predict they won't be 5 years from now you can extend it to other trails, again without huge infrastructure costs. The pace of change of AI and autonomy is at a rate the world has never seen. If you're not in technology field that may not be obvious but, no one can ready predict where AI and autonomy will be in 5 years. All I'm saying is at least explore all options before spending Billions of dollars. If you have precise beltline rail number please show them.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by stepover

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm. How is boring tunnels under Vegas remotely related to an autonomous vehicle on a dedicated track? There are many other companies besides Tesla working on autonomous vehicles btw. This would be probably one of the simplest use cases to solve, again way easier then city street driving.

Should we have payphones on the Beltline also?

If autonomous vehicles are viable which no one can predict they won't be 5 years from now you can extend it to other trails, again without huge infrastructure costs. The pace of change of AI and autonomy is at a rate the world has never seen. If you're not in technology field that may not be obvious but, no one can ready predict where AI and autonomy will be in 5 years. All I'm saying is at least explore all options before spending Billions of dollars. If you have precise beltline rail number please show them.

Bless your heart

[Julien]

Streetcars are a tourist attraction and would serve little to no need on the Beltline. For those "older" (like me) that think Millennials and Gen Z are willing to walk to a train station then wait for a train to arrive and put up with unnecessary to them stops plus NOT going to their exact final distention are mistaken. They already have their form of personal "Streetcars" and they are located right outside their apartments, plus everywhere else in the city and can take them directly to their destination in a fraction of the time with a simple App button push.

This is just one liberating tech change that has happened in the last few years. And we are likely to see a HUGE revelation in transpertation in the next decade and it won't be Streetcars.






EDIT: Just to add: here is an example of the revolution I'm talking about. This is from my car on Peachtree St a few days ago. While Waymo has been slow and methodical they are likely about to start expanding exponentially, including ATL. Also Tesla is making a HUGE Robotaxi commitment/announcement on Aug 8.



Upcoming Tesla Robotaxi App

[stepover]

Originally Posted by montydawg

Bless your heart

Thanks, back at ya!

[stepover]

Originally Posted by Julien

Streetcars are a tourist attraction and would serve little to no need on the Beltline. For those "older" (like me) that think Millennials and Gen Z are willing to walk to a train station then wait for a train to arrive and put up with unnecessary to them stops plus NOT going to their exact final distention are mistaken. They already have their form of personal "Streetcars" and they are located right outside their apartments, plus everywhere else in the city and can take them directly to their destination in a fraction of the time with a simple App button push.

This is just one liberating tech change that has happened in the last few years. And we are likely to see a HUGE revelation in transpertation in the next decade and it won't be Streetcars.






EDIT: Just to add: here is an example of the revolution I'm talking about. This is from my car on Peachtree St a few days ago. While Waymo has been slow and methodical they are likely about to start expanding exponentially, including ATL. Also Tesla is making a HUGE Robotaxi commitment/announcement on Aug 8.



Upcoming Tesla Robotaxi App

Very well said! People are adapting with the times. Again, people that aren't aware of the pace of change of AI and autonomy aren't involved with it or paying attention. I have yet to see a realistic cost of 22 mile Beltline rail but, if anyone can show it's under $1 billion I'd be interested in seeing it.

For me, maybe optimistic but, in a less than 5 years I would love to take path 400 to the Beltline, use an app to get my access, show me a pick up time and location, and quickly get to my destination. We'd be lucky if Beltline rail is complete in 10 years. We don't have to have Beltline rail just because all the "cool" cities in Europe have it. There are alternatives.

[shivtim]

Y'all are describing private transit for rich people.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Y'all are describing private transit for rich people.

In the end, these technologies are risky for a city of Atlanta to implement on a large scale. How long will these transit vehicles last? What is the cost per mile? What repair costs will these vehicles incur over time? Will the manufacturer be around in 10 years to supply spare parts?

With so much tech involved in these vehicles, it is likely technology will be vastly different in 10 years, and I am not seeing these autonomous vehicles having the 25-40 year service live that transit agencies are currently getting out of vehicles. There are also a lot of mechanics involved to move around 10 or fewer people per vehicle. That means you will have 5 sets of motors/batteries/complicated electronics to move around the same number of people as one streetcar. That is a lot more to break and repair over the lifespan of the vehicle.

I believe when they run the numbers, the cost per mile and metrics on repair costs will be much lower on a high capacity transit vehicle than these devices which are essentially glorified minivans. I don’t want to think about the safety concerns for pedestrians with these vehicles either.

While the streetcar is very capital intensive initially, it is a very long term investment

[stepover]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Y'all are describing private transit for rich people.

Please explain? Just because there's an option of using an app? Even Marta has an app. It's not like there couldn't be a option to use a Marta card also. The cost would be significantly lower than Beltline rail, if anything it could be provided at a lower cost per ticket. It's not as if CoA/Marta couldn't subsidize an alternate solution.