noirish Los Angeles

[CityBoyDoug]

_

[Looking4OldLA]

Originally Posted by CityBoyDoug

You may think its hyperbole and uncalled for but I'm not making this up.....these are the facts, reality.

LA used to be a place of openness and access. Today much of LA is a city with double locks, closed off alleys, fences, walled off apartment buildings, caged entries, iron bars on windows, razor wire etc., which is the way most of the 3rd world looks.

Apartments where I used to live in Hollywood are now closed off with a tall iron fence and a locked gate entry. It wasn't that way when I lived in those places in the 1970s. Its really shocking.

I've traveled in several 3rd world countries and have seen them up close.

Yes, this is the way I see LA because I have seen both. I remember the way LA used to look.

My memories of LA go back to the late 1940s....LA does look very different today. Its a city in 2018 that's in lock-down.

I am trying to catch up on the site on my day off, always so much great history to learn about LA. Thanks for all the pictures and information. I wish I had things to post, or knew how to but thanks to everyone who puts up so many amazing pictures. I don't get though how someone can write the above, I mean do you really live in LA "CityBoyDoug"?? Why trash it? There may be problems with boarded up buildings in places here, with razor wire, but have you been downtown lately? the arts district? Seen Echo Park and the northeastern sections, lots of big changes down by USC and with the new subways--?--its all looking better than in years. For my job I have to drive all over the city every day, have been for nearly 30 years, and it hasn't looked this good in a long long time, I've been watching it get better and better even if its crowded. Its all in your outlook on life. What is the population now, something like 13 million? So even if you don't like it, it's not like the city is getting smaller, a lot of people including me love it. It's a big city not a town, not a movie seen from a tv show where everything is sweet and safe and pretty. Of course LA looks different than the 1940s, thing is, you can't go back to those years, why cry over them? No doubt it wasn't as great as you think then anyway. I've seen pictures right here on this website from the past that show rat-infested houses, plenty of trash in the streets, and stories about lots of crimes. I resent your comparing it to the third world. I had to grow up in the third world, no, this isn't like having mud streets or dead animals in the streets, even dead people, bad air to breath etc, really bad places to live in that fall down and kill people in earthquakes. I thank God for LA. Try to see the glass half full, its your loss for sure but maybe LA has left you behind. Hope I don't see the world being so sad and horrible when I get your age. I do work for a psychology doctor sometimes, if you need help. Ha. Just kidding. Don't be so down. LA is a good place.

[CityBoyDoug]

Originally Posted by Looking4OldLA

I am trying to catch up on the site on my day off, always so much great history to learn about LA. Thanks for all the pictures and information. I wish I had things to post, or knew how to but thanks to everyone who puts up so many amazing pictures. I don't get though how someone can write the above, I mean do you really live in LA "CityBoyDoug"?? Why trash it? There may be problems with boarded up buildings in places here, with razor wire, but have you been downtown lately? the arts district? Seen Echo Park and the northeastern sections, lots of big changes down by USC and with the new subways--?--its all looking better than in years. For my job I have to drive all over the city every day, have been for nearly 30 years, and it hasn't looked this good in a long long time, I've been watching it get better and better even if its crowded. Its all in your outlook on life. What is the population now, something like 13 million? So even if you don't like it, it's not like the city is getting smaller, a lot of people including me love it. It's a big city not a town, not a movie seen from a tv show where everything is sweet and safe and pretty. Of course LA looks different than the 1940s, thing is, you can't go back to those years, why cry over them? No doubt it wasn't as great as you think then anyway. I've seen pictures right here on this website from the past that show rat-infested houses, plenty of trash in the streets, and stories about lots of crimes. I resent your comparing it to the third world. I had to grow up in the third world, no, this isn't like having mud streets or dead animals in the streets, even dead people, bad air to breath etc, really bad places to live in that fall down and kill people in earthquakes. I thank God for LA. Try to see the glass half full, its your loss for sure but maybe LA has left you behind. Hope I don't see the world being so sad and horrible when I get your age. I do work for a psychology doctor sometimes, if you need help. Ha. Just kidding. Don't be so down. LA is a good place.

" I do work for a psychology doctor sometimes, if you need help."

OldLA.....your nasty word soup quote above [even in supposed jest] gives all of us a clue as to where you're coming from.
You don't really address what I'm talking about, so you attack me personally.
I've been attacked on this thread for many years....I'm used to it.

You've only made 6 posts, so we're hoping for more.

Good luck and I don't need any help, thank you sir....I'm quite happy.

" 3....apartments where I used to live in Hollywood are now closed off with tall iron fences and locked gate entries. It wasn't that way when I lived there in the 1970s"

[Looking4OldLA]

I didnt know you had to make alot of posts to be part of the NoirishLa. I don't know how to put pictures on, tried it once but it didn't work, just thought I would try to stick up for my city which you attack and say is a jungle. Maybe I get where YOU are coming from. Anyway, sorry to intrude on the noirish site.

[BDiH]

Originally Posted by CityBoyDoug

" I do work for a psychology doctor sometimes, if you need help."

OldLA.....your nasty word soup quote above [even in supposed jest] gives all of us a clue as to where you're coming from.
You don't really address what I'm talking about, so you attack me personally.
I've been attacked on this thread for many years....I'm used to it.

You've only made 6 posts, so we're hoping for more.

Good luck and I don't need any help, thank you sir....I'm quite happy.

" 3....apartments where I used to live in Hollywood are now closed off with tall iron fences and locked gate entries. It wasn't that way when I lived there in the 1970s"

In the late 1950s, I was a newspaper boy in Hollywood. I delivered the Hollywood Citizen News and the Herald (route 30 & 31) on my Schwinn. Mickey Cohen was frequently in the headlines, as well as Lana Turner, her daughter Cheryl Crane and Johnny Stompanato.

My memories include dropping off newspapers at the front desk of many of the old apartment buildings that now are closed to the public with security doors. I delivered to the Lido, the Mayfair, the Green Apartments, the McElroy, and many more, some razed, some still standing.

I went up and down more of those ancient caged elevators than I can remember. Even as a boy, I took it all in. The difference today is that all those apartments and hotels are closed off to the public. Same with smaller buildings. Security gates, block walls, fences. There were more bungalows back then and more cottages and courts.

Yes, I miss those days, but change is inevitable. Tempus fugit!

[CityBoyDoug]

Originally Posted by BDiH

The difference today is that all those apartments and hotels are closed off to the public. Same with smaller buildings. Security gates, block walls, fences.

Yes, I miss those days, but change is inevitable. Tempus fugit!

Yes, BDiH, change is inevitable...but what type of change.

There's a difference in 2018 for a reason. Most people don't want to talk about it in realistic terms..

All of those costly ''security measures" are in place because LA has been flooded with a different type of newcomer than has lived in LA in previous times.

Remember that LA is a ''sanctuary city''. You know what that really means?

[ScottyB]

Originally Posted by CityBoyDoug

Yes, BDiH, change is inevitable...but what type of change.

There's a difference in 2018 for a reason. Most people don't want to talk about it in realistic terms..
All of those ''security measures" are in place because LA has been flooded with a different type of newcomer than has lived in LA in previous times.

Remember that LA is a ''sanctuary city''. You know what that really means?

Doug, I certainly respect your right to your opinion, but I think there are many much more appropriate places to complain about this than NLA. Speaking only for myself, I come here to enjoy history, not bash the present. Like I say, there are plenty of other forums for just that sort of thing. Let's enjoy the great photos and historical sleuthing here!

[ethereal_reality]

KNOCK IT OFF CBD.

Looking4OldLA's post was NOT "nasty word soup" aimed personally at you.

He was defending the city he loves.
___



If you have a problem send me a personal message.

[ethereal_reality]

Scott Charles, thanks for adding Poundcake Hill and Normal Hill to your very informative map.


Scott Charles


Here's an amazing photograph that I don't recall seeing.


i.pin.mg.com

"Hanging by vigilantes on Poundcake Hill, Los Angeles" (Correction: the actual hanging is taking place at the bottom of the hill. The spectators are on the hill)

It appears the body has already been cut down.




This next photograph I remember seeing. No doubt because you can still see Lacherais' body hanging.


USC

"Photograph of a crowd at the lynching of Miguel Lashenais (sp?) on the corner of Temple Street and New High (Justica) Street, Los Angeles, 1870.

A crowd gathers around the gate to the lumber yard. Lashenais, who was lynched for killing Jacob Bell, hangs from the archway.
Many people towards the outside of the crowd simply sit, watching. Tents and other spectators can be seen on the Poundcake Hill in the background.
The hill would later become the site of the Court House and then the Criminal Courts Building."
USC

ok...I'm confused.

I thought Poundcake Hill became the site of the High School. (I'm going to be embarrassed if I'm wrong)


The walking tour site of KEN GONZALES-DAY has a altogether different location for the Lacherais hanging. [see below]

"Near the corner North Broadway and Temple was the original location of the Tomlinson & Griffith Corral. The high beam of its gate, and an angry mob,
claimed the life of "Michael Lachenais" in 1870. Historian Harris Newmark and others have argued that as many as a dozen men dies at this site."

A dozen men!? Could the top photograph be of a different hanging at the same location? Hence it's vague description.

And I should add: Another site has the Lecherais lynching taking place at Phinias Banning's Corral. [not the Tomlinson & Griffith Corral]



Added note:

Lacherais is sometimes spelled Lecherais.... USC spelled it 'Lashenais'

I used Jacob Bell (the name of the well known victim) to find most of this information.

[BillinGlendaleCA]

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality

ok...I'm confused.

I thought Poundcake Hill became the site of the High School, not the Court House. (I'm going to be embarrassed if I'm wrong)

Poundcake Hill was the site of the first LA High School AND the Red Sandstone Courthouse.

The first High School was moved from Poundcake Hill to Fort Moore Hill(though IIRC, it spent some time in the middle of Temple Street) to make way for the new courthouse.

I think the photos are looking south(which would be down Broadway), maybe photographed from near where the Hall of Justice is now.

[ethereal_reality]

Thanks for clearing that up for me BillinGlendaleCA. I appreciate the directions as well

[Scott Charles]

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality

Scott Charles, thanks for adding Poundcake Hill to your very informative map.

My pleasure!

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality

ok...I'm confused.

I thought Poundcake Hill became the site of the High School, not the Court House. (I'm going to be embarrassed if I'm wrong)

As noted in my post on the previous page, Poundcake Hill was the location of both Los Angeles High School and the County Court House.

See here:

Originally Posted by Scott Charles

Below, map of 1877, Poundcake Hill is highlighted in green, sitting atop it is Los Angeles High School:
LINK

Poundcake Hill and Los Angeles High School, top left. This image gives a good idea of how high Poundcake Hill once stood:
LINK

1870's, Poundcake Hill on the top left. Sitting atop it is Los Angeles High School. In the dead center of the photo is St. Athanasius church:
LINK

St. Athanasius with the LA County Courthouse in the background. The Courthouse has taken the place where Los Angeles High School once stood; it appears that Poundcake Hill has been leveled considerably:
LINK

The LA County Courthouse from the same angle as above, but with the St Athanasius church now gone:
LINK

The same view today, the Clara Shortridge Foltz building on the same corner, Spring and Temple, where St. Athanasius church once stood:

GSV

[ethereal_reality]

Yes, I see that now. I went back and reread your post after Bill informed me.

To be honest, I've been thrown for a loop with my electricity sporadically going off and on and the recent arguments on the thread.
One reason the thread has been going strong for nearly a decade is because we avoid extreme rhetoric and hot button topics [like politics]



I think this is a wonderful photograph.


EBAY

"1940 African American Asian Lady Nadine Los Angeles photo booth"

"Nadine, an African American woman is in the booth. She wears a beautiful fur trim coat and head wrap
and a festive pine cone and fake fruit pin. Her name and address is on back in pencil."

but the seller didn't include the address (or the lady's last name) -it might have just said 'Nadine'

[ScottyB]

Originally Posted by Scott Charles

My pleasure!



As noted in my post on the previous page, Poundcake Hill was the location of both Los Angeles High School and the County Court House.

See here:

Don't know if this provides any clarity on hills, but an interesting view from the Courthouse looking W.....I think that would be Temple running from the viewer, but please enlighten me anyone- what is the large building at the upper right of the photo? And, interesting to see the derricks on what I think is Bunker Hill (again, correct me if I'm wrong!).


CSL

[Scott Charles]

Originally Posted by Scott Charles

By the way, does anyone know what the elevated, railroad-looking structure is on the bottom right of the image?

Originally Posted by odinthor

Just a guess, but is it the Woolen Mill complex? From my notes: "ca. 1868-1869, woolen mill built by George Hansen and the Canal and Reservoir Company “on the ditch along the cañon of the Arroyo de Los Reyes—now Figueroa Street” (Newmark), “This was the first turning of attention to the hill lands west of the city, which before were considered practically valueless” (Centennial History:125); ca. 1870, the miller there was perhaps Charles Turner; at length became an ice factory."

Originally Posted by HossC

Yes, it's the woolen mill. We discussed it back in November 2015.

FW's full post is here, and there were others that followed, including a couple on this page.

Thanks, odinthor and HossC - as I've stated previously, you guys are amazing!

ER, as to the location of Tomlinson's Corral - I was reading up quite a bit a few weeks back about the Chinese Massacre of 1871, which occurred in/around "Negro Alley" - the articles mention that several Chinese were hanged from the Tomlinson's Corral, so I just assumed the corral was somewhere in the region of Negro Alley.

Here are the two proposed locations for the corral, and how far away they were from Negro Alley:



Either location seems like an awful long distance to drag someone before hanging them, but I'm certainly no expert on mob mentality.

Also, see this link:

[ethereal_reality]

You da man Scott Charles! The two 'sites' you picked are good possibilities. A plat book would help as well

Originally Posted by Scott Charles

Either location seems like an awful long distance to drag someone before hanging them, but I'm certainly no expert on mob mentality.

from what I've read (and seen in movies ) mobs like to parade their victims. Could that be the reason for the distance?
& of course the high gate at the corral that was perfect for a hanging.


I also came across the Chinese Massacre while looking for information on the Lacherais lynching. (which happened a year before the massacre)
I don't remember if anyone has posted an in-depth look at the massacre.
__

[Flyingwedge]

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality

Here's an amazing photograph that I don't recall seeing.


i.pin.mg.com

"Hanging by vigilantes on Poundcake Hill, Los Angeles" (Correction: the actual hanging is taking place at the bottom of the hill. The spectators are on the hill)

It appears the body has already been cut down.

This next photograph I remember seeing. No doubt because you can still see Lacherais' body hanging.


USC

"Photograph of a crowd at the lynching of Miguel Lasherais (sp?) on the corner of Temple Street and New High (Justica) Street, Los Angeles, 1870.

A crowd gathers around the gate to the lumber yard. Lashenais, who was lynched for killing Jacob Bell, hangs from the archway.
Many people towards the outside of the crowd simply sit, watching. Tents and other spectators can be seen on the Poundcake Hill in the background.
The hill would later become the site of the Court House and then the Criminal Courts Building."
USC

The walking tour site of KEN GONZALES-DAY has a altogether different location for the Lacherais hanging. [see below]

"Near the corner North Broadway and Temple was the original location of the Tomlinson & Griffith Corral. The high beam of its gate, and an angry mob,
claimed the life of "Michael Lachenais" in 1870. Historian Harris Newmark and others have argued that as many as a dozen men dies at this site."

Thanks for posting both of those Lachenais lynching photos together, e_r. Usually I only see one or the other.

In the top photo, from right to left there is the gate with the noose, then another gate, then the corner of the wall,
which looks like an adobe wall with a wooden roof.

This portion of the 1869 Rendall/Godfrey panorama looks in almost the opposite direction as the lynching photos. I've
drawn a line showing where I think the lynching photos were taken from. We see the two gates and the corner of the
adobe wall with the wooden roof (#66 near the lower right corner of the photo is "adobe wall with wooden roof").
Above the lower right corner (to the right of #10) is a tiny bit of the rear of St. Athanasius Church on the SW corner
of Temple and New High Streets; the church would have been just out of view to the left in the first lynching photo:



CHS-7179 @ USCDL

[BillinGlendaleCA]

Originally Posted by Scott Charles

Thanks, odinthor and HossC - as I've stated previously, you guys are amazing!

ER, as to the location of Tomlinson's Corral - I was reading up quite a bit a few weeks back about the Chinese Massacre of 1871, which occurred in/around "Negro Alley" - the articles mention that several Chinese were hanged from the Tomlinson's Corral, so I just assumed the corral was somewhere in the region of Negro Alley.

Scott, I think you're right with the Temple/New High location. They wouldn't necessarily set up gallows where folk were captured, they had a normal 'hangin' place', so they'd do it there.

I really want to thank you for your maps as well. I'm a map geek(as a kid in the 60's I wondered why the Hall of Records was at a weird angle) and they really help clarify the evolution of the city from one point in time to another. The one quibble I have is that I think Poundcake Hill didn't extend all the way to 1st Street, the southern portion of the slope ending in the middle of Grand Park where the Old Hall of Records Building was. I could, of course, be wrong.

On a general note to everyone: I took madame and the kid for a walking tour of Downtown(the Bradbury building, Angels Flight, and down Grand Park to City Hall and then over to the Plaza) and I narrated much our walk with things I've learned here. Thanks to all.

[ethereal_reality]

This is all too exciting!

But it's 2:35 A.M. here. I have to hit the hay.

[Scott Charles]

Originally Posted by BillinGlendaleCA

Scott, I think you're right with the Temple/New High location. They wouldn't necessarily set up gallows where folk were captured, they had a normal 'hangin' place', so they'd do it there.

I really want to thank you for your maps as well. I'm a map geek(as a kid in the 60's I wondered why the Hall of Records was at a weird angle) and they really help clarify the evolution of the city from one point in time to another. The one quibble I have is that I think Poundcake Hill didn't extend all the way to 1st Street, the southern portion of the slope ending in the middle of Grand Park where the Old Hall of Records Building was. I could, of course, be wrong.

Glad you like the maps, Bill!

The more I look at old photos of Poundcake Hill, the more I agree with you. And of course, an actual poundcake is circular, not rectangular.

Do you think that this is more accurate, Bill?