High-Speed rail : the European network

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Fabb

I don't know about Frankfurt, but the direct link between London, Lyon&Marseille wouldn't surprise me.
During the skiing season, there's already a Eurostar service from London to the French Alps.

What I don't understand is the absence of a London-Amsterdam link without change. I think that it would be a big commercial success.

The French discovered a few years ago that the Eurostar trainsets are relatively under powered for the Paris - Lyon route which is why many of the "Ski trains" run on the conventional lines through Dijon for much of the journey. I would be very surprised given the intensive usage of the Lyons - Avignon route if the French will ever schedule the Eurodstar trainsets to Marseille

The problem with a London-Amsterdam link without change is inter-operability of the signaling and control systems. To operate from Brussels to Amsterdam, the Eurostar trainsets would have to add not one but two sets of new signaling controls: ETCS level #2 for the Dutch HSL and the local Dutch system for operations in the stations at Rotterdam and Amsterdam. By the way, it is the installation of these two systems which is delaying the operation of the Thalys trainsets from Brussels to Amsterdam and keeping the initial speeds on the new HSL lines to 160 km/h. The same problem occurs with extending Eurostar services to Koln. Eventually the Channel Tunnel will have to deal with replacement trainsets through the tunnel which hopefully cause a relaxation of the ridiculous safety regulations which might lead to TGV’s or ICEs which could run from London to Amsterdam.

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Why arent there any plans for a HSL from NE France to Frankfurt ?? Is the DB not interested or don't they have the money to built one ? The same goes for a line connecting Amsterdam with Koln...

There are! The German 2003 BVWP contains upgrades for both services, its just that their priorities are not very high. Although the ICE route from Frankfurt to Paris via Saarbrucken will be partially upgraded to 200 km/h by 2007. What is missing is a direct link, which bypasses either Saarbrucken or Strasbourg. There was a originally a plan for bridge north of Strasbourg but local politics killed that during the funding debates.

This is a symptom of the fact that there is no “European” High Speed Rail network just a series of national networks which observe local politics.

For example why do all trains from Brussels to Germany have to stop in Liege?

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

here is your map (which contains many mistakes)




No connection from Scandinavia (CPH) to Germany aswell.
I guess there were plans for a new bridge many years ago between Fehmarn and Lolland or I am wrong ?

I am sorry Grumpy, while I enjoy reading most of your posts, this map should be banned as it is an absolute disaster. It mixes High Speed Lines with upgraded traditional lines with tracks which are serviced by HST’s at normal operating speeds. There many active construction projects in 2006 which are not included.

This is a pity because some Johomaps contain extremely useful information

Ignore it!!!!!!!!!

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

The image of the ETR 500 of SHiRO is to my knowledge only allowed to run in Italy, altough this HST is one of the best designed modells of ... Pininfarina.

The ETR-500 was tested in France during 2005 and 2006. I think that the French may have granted the ETR-500 a safety certificate to run in France during 2006, but I have never heard of the ETR-500 running between Milan and Paris which was the reason for the testing in the first place

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Joka

Isn't TGV Est eventually supposed to reach Vienna?

The furthest that I ever saw in any of the French proposals was Munich. However, when the actual time tables were documented, Stuttgart is now the furthest that the TGV’s will initially penetrate into Germany. I suspect the normal TGV trainsets would not have sufficient power to maintain the standard time table schedule over the Geislingen grade between Stuttgart and Ulm.

An interesting question is whether the French will actually produce a TGV trainset which has sufficient power for the Koln to Frankfurt NBS which also has very steep grades.

Another interesting question is whether the grades on the Stuttgart - Ulm NBS will be to steep for a TGV train.

There are significant differences between the German and French design philosophies for high speed trains which had to partially resolved before the ICE3 could run in France and penetration of the TGVs further into Germany may probably require the French to add power. However for the German ICE's to penetrate deeper into France may require them to reduce the weight on each axle to French design limit for weight on each axle.

[Trainman Dave]

I love this topic and I have finally had time to register on this forum which I found a few days ago. I have just reviewed the posts which I made today.

If I have sounded negative, I appologise. It is just that I have been studying the spread of high speed trains arround the world for over twenty years and I have some very strong opinions which I have tried not to express today and I probably know where a lot of skeletons are buried.

Today I have tried to add facts and context to some of the posts over the past year. Later I will add opinion when I feel it is useful.

Finally, I am learning from all I read. To discover that the Czech republic is actually going to progress beyond 160 km/h is music to my ears. My wife was born in the Czech Republic.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

Today I have tried to add facts and context to some of the posts over the past year. Later I will add opinion when I feel it is useful.

Thank you for your contribution , looking forward for more

[Trainman Dave]

I have just realized that many of my comments relate to inter-operability problems which are created by both current design philosophies and historical development decisons which were made all over Europe on a national basis. When proposing that a German or Italian high speed train operate in France, Britian or Spain the following issues must be addressed and resolved:

Trainsets: Rail Gauge, Loading Gauge, Axle Loading, Power to weight ratio, Pantograph design and Vehicle/track interfaces

Signalling: In Cab signaling protocols, Breaking distance, Route Knowledge and Electrical Interference

Infrastructure: Track design, Track gradients, Track curvature, Track super-elevation (or cant deficiency), Strength of Power Supply, Operating Voltage, OLE design

Safety Protocols: Channel Tunnel Requirements, other tunnel safty protocols

I am sure that this is not a complete list. However the good news is that the Chinese Railway Administration with its speed increase from 160 km/h to 200km/h on April 18th 2007 will have to address most these problems for the Swedish, Japanese, German and Italian trainsets which they have built under technology transfer agreementsover the the last two years. While the Chinese can't change design philosophies, the market can!!!!!!!!

As more countries such as, Turkey, Portugal, Argentina, Iran, Malaysia, Australia, the Czech Republic, India, Poland, Pakistan, Indonesia, and even the United States begin contract to build high speed railways, I expect to see a convergence of design philosophies. There are only a few international consortia such as Bombardier, Alstom, Siemens, Kawaski, CAF and the emerging Chinese companies who will be able bid to build all the new systems,

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Thank you for your contribution , looking forward for more

Thank You Grumpy, I will always post when I think i can help

[one very bored guy]

Welcome to the forum Trainman Dave, and thanks for your information here.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

I love this topic and I have finally had time to register on this forum which I found a few days ago. I have just reviewed the posts which I made today.

If I have sounded negative, I appologise. It is just that I have been studying the spread of high speed trains arround the world for over twenty years and I have some very strong opinions which I have tried not to express today and I probably know where a lot of skeletons are buried.

Today I have tried to add facts and context to some of the posts over the past year. Later I will add opinion when I feel it is useful.

Finally, I am learning from all I read. To discover that the Czech republic is actually going to progress beyond 160 km/h is music to my ears. My wife was born in the Czech Republic.

There are already new Pendolino trains operating at I beleive 160-200kmph(I dont beleive the entire route is modernized yet for the trains to mantain top speed) between Prague, Brno and Ostrava. The trains however so far have had alot of problems due to software glitches. There are only 3 of them operating in the Czech republic and alot of people were unhappy that CD bought them before the tracks were fully modernized to even handel the higher operating speeds. Here is a pic of one of them.



Also the pic of tunnel route I posted will eventualy be part of the highspeed rail network though at the begining it will function only as a important bipass of the congested rail lines that curently run west from Prague. Though at 24.7km its going to be a impresive tunnel.
The plan by the goverment is to have a highspeed rail network up and running by 2020(their already buying up land for future lines), thoguh as most people know that when the goverment says 2020 then it in all probability will be 2030 or later. In any case I have no doubt that withing the next couple of decades Czech republic will surpass western europe in terms of infrastructure such as high speed rail, rail, highways etc.(though this will be partly due to the fact that all the new ifrastructure that will be built will be modern and new and started from scratch which is a big plus).

Also this forum has more info regarding the going ons of highspeed rail/etc. in different regions of the world then here. Just have a look around the regional forums and trasnsportation forums.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/

[Grumpy]

The "Savoureuse" viaduct on the Rhein/Rhone line

[Trainman Dave]

The French do build beautiful bridges

[Fabb]

Tickets now on sale for Europe's 'newest and fastest' high-speed rail link


Article Date: 04/05/2007

Tickets are now sale for the launch of the TGV railway company's new eastern network, which promises to be the fastest rail network in Europe.

Travel times between approximately 20 destinations in France could be cut by between a third and a half, while the speed of services to other parts of the country, such as Nantes, Lille and Bordeaux, will also increase.

Indeed, TGV is confident that the expansion will prove to be a big success, as it has predicted a 65% increase in rail travel, as people eschew airliners and become more enamoured with the efficiency of new rail services.

Fabrice Morel, president and chief executive offer of Rail Europe, explained: "These predictions are in line with what has historically happened whenever a high-speed rail line is launched."

The trains will travel at 199 mph, which is faster than any train network in Europe - including the UK, where high-speed trains have a limit of 150 mph.

Last month, a modified TGV train broke the world's speed record for a locomotive on conventional rails, reaching 356 mph.

[Grumpy]

Picture of the HS line between Leuven and Ans on the Brussels to Germany line taken by me yesterday afternoon:

[Trainman Dave]

That is great photograph of the track furniture.
Can any one tell us what function the four items between the track perform?
Also there are two waist high items on either side under the bridge?

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

Can any one tell us what function the four items between the track perform?

those "four" items are two separated steel bars called "crocodile".
the train driver of regular IC-trains (like the model on the photo,no high speed trains) uses these to mark the signal he recieved on his board computer

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

Also there are two waist high items on either side under the bridge?

These are 2 emergency telephones in case off...

[Grumpy]

Welcome for 'rival Eurostar plan'

Reports that a rival cross-Channel rail service to Eurostar could be set up have been welcomed by Ashford council.

It follows newspaper reports this week that Air France-KLM is considering setting up its own London to Paris high-speed train service.

Council leader Paul Clokie said there had been "exciting" rumours in the Kent town for about a month.

Eurostar said it already competed with airlines and welcomed any competition. Air France-KLM has not yet commented.

Eurostar is set to cut all Brussels trains and off-peak Paris services from Ashford when Kent's new Ebbsfleet International Station opens this year.

The move has led to campaigns against the cuts by residents and politicians, which saw a petition signed by 8,000 people being handed to Eurostar last month.

On Sunday, Mr Clokie told BBC Radio Kent: "Frankly, if this comes off, it will serve Eurostar right.

"It will also serve them right if everybody decides to go to Paris with the AirFrance-KLM consortium."

He said the reported rail service plan would "certainly add services to Paris" but it was not known whether it would include a through-service to Brussels.

He added the present cross-Channel rail franchise was exclusive until 2010 but said "hopefully those involved in trying to bring this about will come and talk to us".

Eurostar has previously defended the Ashford service cuts saying most passengers would find Ebbsfleet "either the same or less of a distance to travel".

It has also said it will monitor the demand at Ashford and keep timetables under review, but the company believes it has "got the stopping pattern right".

Ebbsfleet International Station will take up many of Ashford's services


Source :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...nt/6629965.stm

[GVNY]

How much are railroad engineers in Europe paid, specifically high speed passenger rail and or freight engineers?

[Trainman Dave]

those "four" items are two separated steel bars called "crocodile".
the train driver of regular IC-trains (like the model on the photo,no high speed trains) uses these to mark the signal he recieved on his board computer

Thank you, Grumpy