High-Speed rail : the European network

[Metropolitan]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Trains already run directly to Lille, Paris and Brussels from and to London without much problem.

Passports are checked without much problem at Waterloo and security is already tight on the Channel Tunnel route from Brussels, Paris etc, so it already does happen.

There is no way that Britain is going to allow anyone to get on a Channel Tunnel bound train without looking at their identity and possible even checking their baggage

if it means coming to the station half an hour earlier then so be it - I would rather be safe in the knowledge that checks were being taken and that customs, police and immigration were doping their jobs.

That's your opinion. Mines is that it is useless and excessively procedural.

If Brussels and Germany doesn't want to do the checks then so be it, not many people want to go to Brussels anyway

That's a cheap and unjustified despiseful comment. Should I recall you that Brussels is the capital city of the European Union. As a matter of fact, many people do want to go there.

We have St Pancras, Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Also the Government is considering high speed 2, which would link Birmingham and Manchester with the European High Speed Rail Network.

I'm glad for you and it's great news. However, the point of my message was that it's ridiculous to consider "international" as an upper station standard in the European context. In continental Europe nearly all central train stations are "international" ! If they would all have the same passport checking procedure as with Eurostar, I'm sure the European rail network would have finished in the same state as in the US...

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

That's your opinion. Mines is that it is useless and excessively procedural.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, Britain is not going to stop security measures on Eurostar - simple as that.

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

That's a cheap and unjustified despiseful comment. Should I recall you that Brussels is the capital city of the European Union. As a matter of fact, many people do want to go there.

No it's a fact. Who the hell wants to go to Brussels or indeed Belgium.

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

I'm glad for you and it's great news. However, the point of my message was that it's ridiculous to consider "international" as an upper station standard in the European context. In continental Europe nearly all central train stations are "international" ! If they would all have the same passport checking procedure as with Eurostar, I'm sure the European rail network would have finished in the same state as in the US...

That is your opinion.

Mine is that we have to have relevant security measures, partcuarly after recent European Transport related terrorism in London and Madrid.

I personally think the safety and human life comes before anything else including trade.

The Channel Tunnel is a major target for terrorists, and passport/customs controls are important to stop criminal activities such as people smuggling,
illegal immigrants, terrorism, drug smuggling and a whole array of other activities.

There is no way that Britain will stop checking it's borders or do away with customs, indeed the borders are now subject to both outgoing and incoming checks.

[Swede]

Originally Posted by Ardent

No it's a fact. Who the hell wants to go to Brussels or indeed Belgium.

That is stepping way across the line. Here at SSP one behaves in a civil manor, or one doesn't post.
/Moderator-mode

As for the passport-checking, the UK isn't part of Schengen and is free to do so if it wants. No biggie IMO, the exact procedure might be able to be effectivised but I wouldn't know since I've never taken the Eurostar. The one time I've had to show my passport on a train was over 10 years ago (before Schengen) on a train entering Germany from Sweden (ferry...), but that wasn't much of a hassle.

[SHiRO]

The UK isn't part of Shengen, but it eventually should be imo
There are 100s of tunnels, bridges, airports, etc in the EU which are secured while maintaining freedom of movement. Granted, the Channel Tunnel is a potential high profile target, but it's not the only one.
Such targets need to be protected but overall British border control vis a vis fellow EU citizens is just a little too strict.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

The UK isn't part of Shengen, but it eventually should be imo
There are 100s of tunnels, bridges, airports, etc in the EU which are secured while maintaining freedom of movement. Granted, the Channel Tunnel is a potential high profile target, but it's not the only one.
Such targets need to be protected but overall British border control vis a vis fellow EU citizens is just a little too strict.

The UK and Ireland have no plans to join the Schengen Agreement.

British borders aren't too strict there is a EU and Non EU Customs Channel, and checks at the rail stations aren't excessive they merely involve passport control and some luggage checks.

If you take the ferry you are still subject to checks.

The Conservative Party want to tighten our borders further with a dedicated border police, while Labour is pushing ahead with id cards and more checks, not less.

If you want a passport in the UK now you have to go for an interview at the passport office and more checks are now required and transport (including rail) companies will have to
hand over passenger lists in future in order that they can be scruitinised.

Such is the world we live in.

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by Ardent

If you want a passport in the UK now you have to go for an interview at the passport office and more checks are now required and transport (including rail) companies will have to
hand over passenger lists in future in order that they can be scruitinised.

I take it you are talking about a first time British passport.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by one very bored guy

I take it you are talking about a first time British passport.

Yes in terms of the interview - however bio-metrics are to be made part of all future UK passports.

Passenger Lists and documentation relating to booking journeys is also being used increasingly to identify criminals or any potential threat.

http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/...9168033,00.htm

Btw Eurostar is grouped under the Ferry company heading and much of the same rules apply.

[SHiRO]

Yeah it's widely documented that the UK is one of worst offenders regarding violations of privacy.
But by all means, let's keep this thread about HSR.

[Fabb]

Europe's high-speed rail gains popularity

By SHELLEY EMLING
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 10/28/07

London — Travelers in Europe, whether tourists or residents, are familiar with hassles at airports and aboard airliners. Now, their discontent is contributing to a new golden age of rail travel.

"My husband and I actually prefer train travel," said Jane Seto, an American who moved from San Francisco to London this year. "I find it's less stressful to travel when dealing with rail stations versus airports."

Helping the trend is the opening of new high-speed routes across Europe that are enticing travelers away from even the budget air carriers and their rock-bottom fares.

Travelers in Europe first started to see rail in a new light in 1994 with the launch of London-Paris Eurostar trains through the Channel tunnel. The journey from Britain to France took just under three hours on trains that coasted along quietly.

Beginning Nov. 14, that journey will become even shorter when service in London shifts from Waterloo International Station to St. Pancras. The journey from London to Paris will take two hours and 15 minutes, while a trip from Brussels to London will take less than two hours.

Eurostar officials say they believe the quicker trips, on trains traveling at speeds of up to 186 mph, will herald a 20 percent rise in the number of riders by 2010. Already, the number of passengers on Eurostar was up by 5 percent in the first six months of this year compared to the same period last year.

Rail fans point to all sorts of advantages. Passengers are required to check in just 30 minutes before departure. Security lines tend to be shorter than at airports. And Eurostar trains arrive on time or early more than 90 percent of the time.


Contrast that with having to cope with London-area airports, which have been branded a disgrace by the British media for their lost luggage, long lines and security hassles.

Train travel does generally cost more than air travel — but not that much more after you factor in the costs of getting from the airport to the city center.

"Eurostar's numbers are surging, and they are beating the low-cost airlines on the London-to-Paris and London-to-Brussels routes," said Richard Cope, a travel analyst at the Mintel consulting firm. "The low-cost airlines may be cheap, but they usually fly out of airports far away from city centers, so there's lots of extra journey time."

Judi Grant-Johnston, an American living in London, said she will only take Eurostar when traveling to Paris.

"I can get cheaper flights, but the train is so much more relaxing and the experience of checking in and security is much better organized," she said. "And with trains you can more easily bring back a bottle of wine, olive oil or vinegar because you don't have to check your luggage."

Richard Brown, chief executive of Eurostar, said in a written statement that passenger numbers are rising all across Europe.

He said more people are discovering "the punctuality and productivity advantages that Eurostar offers compared with the experience of flying."

He added that more travelers also are being attracted by the environmental benefits of using high-speed rail instead of short-haul air.

Brown pointed to an increasing number of rail destinations available from London, like a high-speed line from Brussels to Amsterdam launching in 2008 that will whisk riders from London to Amsterdam in under four hours.

Already in June, France's high-speed system, TGV, launched about 30 new city destinations reachable from Paris's Gare du Nord. Cities such as Zurich, Frankfurt, and Luxembourg now are all easy rail rides not only from Paris but also from London.

To ensure rail travel in Europe is seamless, Eurostar and eight other European train companies recently formed an alliance called Railteam.

Railteam is establishing multilingual information points in hub cities such as Cologne, Brussels, and Frankfurt. It also has implemented a new system that allows those who have missed a connection due to a late-running train to have a guaranteed spot on the next available train, no matter what kind of ticket they hold.

Henry Harteveldt, a travel analyst at Forrester Research in San Francisco, said European rail travel has indeed become a more viable option.

He said it can be especially good for business travelers who are eager to get some work done.

"Because a traveler can use his or her cell phone on the train — and on some routes even access the Internet via Wi-Fi connections — train travel can be more productive," he said.

Betty Stark, a travel consultant in Madison, Wis., said that high-speed trains are the ideal way to get around Europe for leisure travelers as well.

"Yes, some of the low-cost air carriers throughout Europe are offering very low fares," she said. "But why put up with the rampant inconveniences of air travel when you can board a sleek whisper-quiet train and whoosh through the countryside in comfort?

"I've done it several times and I love it," she said.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Ardent

No it's a fact. Who the hell wants to go to Brussels or indeed Belgium.

I am told that the majority of EU employers of the UK prefer a Eurostar ride instead of a plane to go between London and Brussels...

Are there indications that the UK is about to sign the Schengen agreements in the future ?

Originally Posted by SHiRO

He Grumpy I thought you were against "the EU"?

You are a naughty boy

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

I am told that the majority of EU employers of the UK prefer a Eurostar ride instead of a plane to go between London and Brussels...

Are there indications that the UK is about to sign the agreements in the future ?




You are a naughty boy

There are no indications Britain will join Schengen, if anything our border
controls look like becoming stricter.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Are there indications that the UK is about to sign the Schengen agreements in the future ?

No - the UK (and Ireland - but that's a different matter) is reluctant to sign up to the Schengen Agreement.
However, it has announced that a new electronic border control system will come into use in 2009.
IMO the UK should join Schengen because it would allow it to access the Schengen Information System, which is a large database with details on undesirable people.

Also, there is no way that the UK is going to start cutting down its border security, especially at this time when terrorism and immigration are big issues for the government. It won't happen under Labour, and if the Conservatives get in, it will be even tighter.

[Fabb]

Royal opening for high-speed rail link to Europe


LONDON (AFP) — Queen Elizabeth II was to unveil a luxurious new international rail terminal in London Tuesday, signalling the start of a new era of high-speed train travel to continental Europe.

St. Pancras station, a long-neglected Victorian gothic masterpiece, has been scrubbed up and transformed into a swanky rail hub connecting Britain to France and Belgium.

The queen and her husband Prince Philip, fresh from the high ceremony of the state opening of parliament across the city, were to open the revamped station at 7:00pm.

The official launch is the culmination of a 5.8-billion-pound, 10-year project to bring high-speed rail travel to Britain.

Services on the new 68-mile High Speed 1 rail line between St. Pancras and the Channel Tunnel will link London with Paris in two hours, 15 minutes, and London with Brussels in one hour, 51 minutes.

Services are switching on November 14 from Waterloo station, south of the River Thames, to St. Pancras on the north side, making it easier for passengers from the English Midlands, northern England and Scotland to connect to the continent.

The new line enables Eurostar trains to hit their full speed of 186 miles per hour, cutting journey times between London and continental Europe by at least 20 minutes.

Instead of rolling along from the coast then clunking and grinding past the rooftops and grimy brick railway arches of south London, passengers will whizz through the Kent countryside before speeding underground across the capital.

Built in 1868, the new-look St Pancras has been kitted out with Wifi, touchscreen monitors and passenger information screens. It also hosts Europe's biggest champagne bar -- 90 metres long -- along with a plethora of upmarket boutiques.

More than 150 years of dirt has been scraped from the brickwork to spruce the station up.

"The restoration and extension of the iconic St. Pancras station is a tremendous boost for London," said James Bidwell, chief executive of the Visit London tourism agency.

"St. Pancras International is not only the new, spectacular home of Eurostar but also a grand retail and hospitality destination which will welcome many millions of visitors to London in great style.

"The culmination of the 10-year St. Pancras restoration project is a truly historic moment for London and symbolic of our great city as we prepare for (the) 2012 (Olympics)."

Rail travel has often been a source of misery in Britain, through the 1960s mass closure of local stations to strikes, packed, sweaty commuter trains and leaves on the line blamed for holding up services.

Britons have often looked abroad with envy as French passengers hurtle along on the TGV or Japanese travellers cruise in futuristic "bullet trains".

But the new rail line has inspired hope that train travel in Britain could finally be something to boast about.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Fabb

Britons have often looked abroad with envy as French passengers hurtle along on the TGV or Japanese travellers cruise in futuristic "bullet trains".

But the new rail line has inspired hope that train travel in Britain could finally be something to boast about.

This is something that I always try to get across to people about high-speed rail (and I mean TGV and Shinkansen high-speed here, not the "high speed" that our TOC's boast about - where 100mph is considered high speed) in the UK.
The fact of the matter is that having a TGV type network in the UK is simply not possible.
In France, for example, large urban centres are many hundreds of miles apart. Paris and Lyon are 300 miles apart, about the same distance as between London and Newcastle - the key difference being that in between London and Newcastle there are 11 stations on the ECML that GNER trains regularly stop at, whereas on the TGV Sud-Est line there are only 2. This means that TGV trains can accelerate up to a very high speed and maintain that for substantial distances without having to stop, whereas UK trains cannot - the stations being much closer together physically.
I would go so far as to say that UK trains go as fast now as they are ever going to go; unless any new high speed line cuts out most of these intermediate stations - which would never be allowed by the public or the government.
Yes, of course we watch enviously across the channel at France's TGV, and when I travel on them it feels like I've stepped forward a few decades, but without astronomical changes to the UK rail infrastructure, we'll never have a truly high speed rail network like France and Japan do.

What we can do is make our existing network as efficient as possible - such as new, modern trains which we are already seeing from the likes of the Pendolino. The ECML needs new trains in the near future (not refurbished diesel ones from the late 1970's), and in-cab signalling is a must to get trains going as fast as possible.

[Fabb]

Originally Posted by PeterG

The fact of the matter is that having a TGV type network in the UK is simply not possible.

... but a Shinkansen type network would be closer to something that could work in UK.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Fabb

... but a Shinkansen type network would be closer to something that could work in UK.

Well maybe, Fabb. But, as I'm sure you'll be aware, high speed rail networks spanning whole countries is extremely expensive - we're talking tens of billions of pounds, possibly even hundreds of billions if we're talking a network extending across the entire UK.
Considering the government has shelled out £10 billion to upgrade the WCML in recent years, it seems improbable that they're going to sanction a completely new network in the next few decades at least.
Plus, where would it be built? You can't build on existing line because it would bring the country to its knees. We're a cramped little island, with a planning application process that is fluent in making things complicated - Heathrow Terminal 5 took 8 years to be passed. And that's small fish compared to a new rail network.
I just don't see it on a large scale in the next 30 years at least. By then, Maglev will probably be the in thing.

On a small scale maybe. There have been rumours of a high speed line between London and Birmingham, with no intermediate stops, which is a possibility - but again the space problem comes in. Where do you built it?

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by PeterG

This is something that I always try to get across to people about high-speed rail (and I mean TGV and Shinkansen high-speed here, not the "high speed" that our TOC's boast about - where 100mph is considered high speed) in the UK.
The fact of the matter is that having a TGV type network in the UK is simply not possible.
In France, for example, large urban centres are many hundreds of miles apart. Paris and Lyon are 300 miles apart, about the same distance as between London and Newcastle - the key difference being that in between London and Newcastle there are 11 stations on the ECML that GNER trains regularly stop at, whereas on the TGV Sud-Est line there are only 2. This means that TGV trains can accelerate up to a very high speed and maintain that for substantial distances without having to stop, whereas UK trains cannot - the stations being much closer together physically.

Sorry, I have to disagree here. We have high speed lines in Germany, and this with many cities and stops in between. I have also been to Japan, and their Shinkansen network also has many stops.

I just don't see your point. Actually, the UK is perfect for high speed rail. It is a long, thin country with high density. Traffic mainly goes North/South, which does make things a bit cheaper.

Originally Posted by PeterG

I would go so far as to say that UK trains go as fast now as they are ever going to go; unless any new high speed line cuts out most of these intermediate stations - which would never be allowed by the public or the government.

I think you are missing the point here. Why assume that the majority of traffic would be between London and Newcastle? With the stops in between there will be a large amount of traffic between these stops as well which would certainly make it viable.

The total length would not be too long in travel time.
Frankfurt to Berlin has 10 stops (including Berlin) and takes around 4hr 20minutes with and this includes a 10minute transfer in the middle.

If you take the direct fastest train (no change), and only 3 stops it is only 17minutes longer.

Now, Berlin is double the distance from Frankfurt than Newcastle is from London, so if a 4 hour journey is viable for high speed rail, I am sure an hour and a half is also for the UK.

One way to do this, is to offer different services. Some trains stop at more stations that others. It's done all over the place. Other country's do not stop their high speed trains at every little town. I am sure that the line could avoid stops at Grantham (pop 34,000), Newark (25,000) Retford (21,000) etc. In fact, looking at the current route between London and Newcastle

[Fabb]

^I agree with that.
The time lost during the deceleration, stop and acceleration at a station is not that important.

Another report of the St Pancras Station opening, by BBC News :

Queen opens new £800m St Pancras

The Queen has opened a transformed St Pancras station and new Channel Tunnel rail terminal for Eurostar.

Her Majesty said the £800m St Pancras International was "magnificent", and hoped people would consider it as not just a station but as "a destination".

Developers have called it the jewel in the crown of a £5.8bn project to bring high speed rail to the UK.

St Pancras will house high-speed services to Kent, Midland Mainline, Thameslink and six Tube lines.

Accompanied by the Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen offered her "warmest congratulations" to all those involved in the renovation.

It gives me great pleasure to officially launch High Speed 1, Britain's first high speed railway
The Queen

She told guests the high speed rail service, known as High Speed 1, would make a "real difference" to people's lives and bring the UK closer to Europe.

The Queen said: "The remarkable re-birth of this great and gleaming station means that people across the whole of Britain, not just the South East, are suddenly quite a bit closer to Europe.

"And as we look forward to the London Olympics in 2012, it is good to know that a journey from here to the new High Speed 1 station at Stratford will take spectators a mere seven minutes.

"It gives me great pleasure to officially launch High Speed 1, Britain's first high speed railway and to re-open this magnificent station, St Pancras International."

The evening ceremony was compered by actor Timothy West playing St Pancras' designer William Barlow.

The event saw two Eurostar trains and a Hitachi Bullet Train, which will shuttle spectators to and from the 2012 Olympic Park, arriving at St Pancras.

A suspended giant screen featured appearances from F1 driver David Coulthard, actress Kristin Scott Thomas and other personalities.

The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, mezzo-soprano Katherine Jenkins and pop singer Lemar provided musical entertainment.

The 68-mile high speed railway line runs from St Pancras to the Channel Tunnel opening at Folkestone in Kent.

Work on the station began in 2001 to enable it to accommodate domestic rail services and Eurostar trains to and from France and Belgium.

The front of the station, Sir George Gilbert Scott's neo-Gothic building, will open as a five-star hotel in 2009.

The new route will cut journey times to Paris by 20 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes, and to Brussels by 25 minutes to one hour and 51 minutes.

Story from BBC NEWS

[Grumpy]

some photos of the Eurotunnel at Calais

[nito]

St Pancras was opened by Queen Elizabeth yesterday night. Images from flickr.com