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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 2:31 AM
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In Rome itself, the thermae (baths) are some of the most impressive structures. The "Big Three" are the baths of Trajan, Diocletian, and Caracalla.

Baths of Trajan:



Baths of Diocletian:



https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...06219877591552



link

Baths of Caracalla:



link
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 4:35 AM
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I've discussed this before. It's the American education system. It's absolute crap. It teaches a fake view of history that laughably treats western history as "world history" and gives one the impression that the Roman Empire, one of countless large empires in history, was somehow the "Greatest empire in the world" that came up with ALL of its own innovations.

Pure trash, and it must be ignored. It's like Trumpian fake news blasted into the minds of every American child, and it is the source of all these white supremacy boneheads you see marching around the country. Blue collar kids who are failing the global economy are being fed this blatant lie, and go around angry that they have been "betrayed" as if they are part of some master race that is 5000 years old.

I am mad that I had to learn so much European history. I want to de-learn some of it. A lot of it is boring and useless. I don't care about those dumb French and English kings. It's not important. There are some things that are important, of course, but way too much of it doesn't matter unless you take personal interest in it (you are descended from Europeans).

I had to go out on my own and study Asian history and I'm quite annoyed I had to do that, because America's worthless education system doesn't teach SHIT about the history of the world (as evidenced by some of the posts we read here). I would expect better from this forum but the same ignoramuses who attack Trump are guilty of the same fake facts and ethnocentrism as the "deplorables" they so despise.
I hate to break it to you, but the US is a former colony of a European country therefore they teach a Eurocentric version of history along with all countries in the Americas. East Asian countries either teach a Sinocentric version of history or, conversely they downplay the Chinese contributions to their cultures. This all started out because history has always been interpreted differently by each "side" so each country/group has it's own version. History is part of the common narrative that binds society together. It's propaganda and always has been, but essential to group cohesion.

It's fine and dandy to teach the whole absolute truth, but then why bother teaching any history at all in a globalized world? All you find there are the horrors of slavery, oppression, conquest, colonialism and genocide committed by some groups against some other groups with no values to impart that are not ethnocentric or nationalistic or self aggrandizing except that human beings are terrible and all values and beliefs are nonsense with maybe only the golden rule left standing. Sure, there have been great achievements by many different cultures all around the world during their golden age - built on the backs of slaves, serfs, women and the poor; paid for with gold looted from neighbors; built using knowledge stolen from previous cultures that were trampled along the road to greatness - only to be later looted, destroyed, desecrated and forgotten by the next great empire during it's subsequent golden age.

How about we all just become globalists and stop teaching history at all as it's nothing more than half truths offensive to one group or another or the whole truth showing that people are bad. We can all become rootless individuals with no frame of reference, beliefs or values at all. Blank slates to be moulded by those who have the means to do so into whatever they desire.

I'm sorry you don't like the education you received but I guess some people are still trying to keep the US a coherent country.
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 5:15 AM
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I'm sorry you don't like the education you received but I guess some people are still trying to keep the US a coherent country.
How does teaching some history of other places in the world, or the history of the first people on the continent, and the contributions of non-Europeans in addition to Europeans to history prevent the US from being a coherent country?

Many racial and ethnic groups in the US, including the native people of course, and certainly not just Europeans like certain people would have you think, contributed to its development and coherence as a nation, and acknowledging that they exist and have a history too is good practice.

E pluribus unum, after all! Live up to it!
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 6:19 AM
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How does teaching some history of other places in the world, or the history of the first people on the continent, and the contributions of non-Europeans in addition to Europeans to history prevent the US from being a coherent country?

Many racial and ethnic groups in the US, including the native people of course, and certainly not just Europeans like certain people would have you think, contributed to its development and coherence as a nation, and acknowledging that they exist and have a history too is good practice.

E pluribus unum, after all! Live up to it!
I never said it did. I don't know for sure, but I would assume that the known history of aboriginal cultures is covered, mostly as it relates to their interactions with Europeans because they had no prior recorded history so not much more is known. World history is also probably covered, touching on all ancient civilizations, but emphasising those (like Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome) that are seen as major contributors to European culture. Later, medieval European history is likely touched on to give a bit of context to the Magna Carta or the age of exploration that lead to the "discovery" of the Americas as well as the motivations for the colonization of the New World before moving to the colonial period culminating in the Revolutionary War, followed by American history.

We're talking about high school after all. How much history can be covered? Interest is limited, there are many other courses that are deemed more relevant to starting a career or preparing for post secondary education. The limited time available means that the curriculum includes topics that the majority of people find interesting and that relate to their own nation and place in the world and how it came about. Not much use in Americans learning a Sinocentric world history, where Europe is a remote land of western barbarians that eventually arrive to grovel and trade but quickly become powerful before they're defeated and expelled from the Middle Kingdom. Nor is there utility in being fair and balanced for the sake of political correctness and cover interesting but out of context tidbits from the golden ages of civilizations all around the globe with no prevailing theme or context that builds to anything - as this is all the available time would allow.

This scenario is not greatly improved by taking an introductory world history class in first year university although that would be a bit more balanced I would think. To get a fuller, truer picture, you probably need to major in it.
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 6:47 AM
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Love the Antioch one, and about the Jerusalem pic, is that larger building part of the Wailing Wall today?
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 6:48 AM
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More detailed stuff on the Daming Palace - 4x the size of todays' Forbidden City

Video Link
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 7:25 AM
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Old Beijing, the world's largest city before the modern era


http://arthistorypi.org

It was a divided city - to the south lay the teeming Chinatown-in-China, the Chinese City, where the subjugated masses of Han Chinese (120 ethnicities today grouped as
one) lived. To the north the much larger Tartar City, where the Manchurians ruled, accompanied by Tibetan, Mongol and Xinjianger gentry, and in later years, numbers of the
Han elite. A prime meridian line ran through it, marking the major royal and religious sites (and is still being added to - the Olympic complex was built on it).





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Manchurian gentry





Manchu royalty- under new laws the women held the power, and the Emperor became a ceremonial position. Three women successively ruled the empire.



Tibetan upper class



Mongol upper classes





The Chinese City was very densely populated, but also teeming with life - markets, theatres, shopping, sex and entertainment districts drew the Tatars across the divide by
the thousands, at first in disguise, later openly.


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The Chinese were forced to shave their heads in the Manchu style, and grow a long plait as a sign of subjugation - entire cities were initially laid to the sword after conquest
for refusing. Later the plait, or queue became the most treasured possession for a man, and became an ultimate punishment to cut it off

working class Han. Note, the working class girls still had their feet bound - once the preserve of the upper classes to proclaim women didn't work, relied on men and servants
and swayed their hips suggestively, had spread even to the working classes.





middle class Han





upper class Han



The Winter Palace lay at the centre (aka the Forbidden City, made up of 980 buildings - the world's largest palace).


www.traveltrilogy.com

http://flashpackatforty.com




Right next to it was a second, separate Forbidden City surrounding a huge lake (which is currently the semi-secret HQ of the Communist Party today), itself surrounded by
the Imperial City, made up of 3000 minor palaces, temples, mosques and shrines (and 28 large temple complexes) for the multinational elite - note the much lower density
around the lakes due to palatial gardens. As mentioned before though, the populace tired of this life, and often preferred the teeming streets of the Chinese City, so much
that in later years the authorities finally allowed theatre districts to form within the massive compound.

Bright yellow roofs, an otherwise forbidden colour, marked out royal residences - the minor palaces of the princes.




The Summer Palace, even larger at 820 acres (600 football fields), lay to the north in the world's largest gardens and over 1,000 buildings, but was sacked in 1860 by
Western troops. It was so large it took three days for two armies to loot and burn.

SCROOOOOLLLL>>>>>>>>>


www.wikimedia.org


The New Summer Palace at a new site, was also heavily damaged by Western troops again in 1900 (the money originally slated for a state of the art navy, was spent by the
Empress on the palace, including a jewel laced marble boat, as the middle finger to the army chiefs. This came to haunt her in the Opium Wars). Over 160 buildings remain.



www.wikimedia.org

The city was bounded by the world's largest ever city walls, 50-60ft tall, and 66ft thick, once considered the 8th wonder of the world, with its castle sized gates and
watchtowers. The outer walls alone (there were concentric rings inside between the Tatar, Chinese, Imperial and Forbidden Cities) measured over 60km.


www.oldbookillustrations.com


Only a few gates and corner watchtowers survive, the rest being bulldozed in the 1950s to make way for a ringroad and subway.


www.wikimedia.org

Last edited by muppet; Sep 28, 2017 at 8:35 AM.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
How does teaching some history of other places in the world, or the history of the first people on the continent, and the contributions of non-Europeans in addition to Europeans to history prevent the US from being a coherent country?

Many racial and ethnic groups in the US, including the native people of course, and certainly not just Europeans like certain people would have you think, contributed to its development and coherence as a nation, and acknowledging that they exist and have a history too is good practice.

E pluribus unum, after all! Live up to it!
Well, you shouldn't be surprised that America teaches a Eurocentric historical cannon. What else would they teach? Founded and colonized by Europeans with European ideals along with European culture and tradition. The reason so little of the indigenous history gets taught is because nobody knows it. It's one thing to hear Native people lay down a creation myth or some such thing and that's respectable but myths and legends are simply not facts. As such, they are not historical.

Here in China, plenty gets taught that is considered nonsense by the rest of the world. For example, it's not just North Korea that teaches that the US started the Korean War. Never mind that every other source outside of the Soviet sphere of influence on earth has recorded exactly the opposite. Or hell, in China, they don't teach or hint that Taiwan is actually a sovereign nation. It's easy to understand why the Chinese would want Taiwan to be considered a wayward province but facts are facts and Taiwan is NOT currently part of the Chinese nation.

In Japan, it's not what they teach but what they don't teach. All that carnage in Nanking? Nah...wasn't Japan. That story is all overblown and exaggerated anyway/s. Lost the war? What war? We didn't lose a war, we stopped fighting because the emperor was weak and we were tricked and, yada, yada, yada.

Most New World cities are probably older than Old World cities in terms of their infrastructure. Of course, this also draws out that in North America, we can live in buildings for such a long time. Most of the world doesn't take care of its buildings or anything else. Western Europe and a tiny slice of Asia
(notably Japan) has learned the art of maintenance as well but considering the wars, their buildings would mostly also be younger than so many in North America, at least.
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 1:00 PM
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For the residents Old Beijing operated a strict height limit of only a few storeys (nothing could be higher than the palace pavilion bases), so growing houses spread outward, dividing
into courtyards and wings for different family members, along with gardens. These compound walls formed the blank hutong lanes, 'as fine as the hairs on a cow' - 3,250 of
these streets, where all life could be found. One could tell you were entering an Imperial rather than mercantile city from the 'luxury' of lowrises.




http://greatwalladventure.com


However by the 20th Century (after over a century of continuous civil wars) Beijing's burgeoning population had become so crowded from decades of utter development
freeze the courtyards had been filled in, brick add-ons dominated the hutongs, and the average resident had only 1 sq metre of living space, with multiple families sharing
single houses. This adversely increased the famous Chinese streetlife as people resorted to living most of their daily life outdoors, from washing to cooking to sports and socialising.



By 1930, following the fall of the last dynasty from Han uprising and several devastating wars, and the set up of a democratic republic, the city had modernised. However, the
amount of temples, shrines and palaces had fallen to 300, 1/10 its number a few decades before. The hutongs were degenerating into slums, including hundreds of sprawling mansions.


http://picturesofpast.com

Today parts of the Chinese City still remain around the Inner gates:


www.wikimedia.org, www.beijingrelocation.com





And parts of the Tatar City around the Imperial lakes.


http://windhorsetour.com, www.chinadaily.com.cn


About 2,000 hutong lanes have survived decades of destruction as the city centre unavoidably built up, and are only now being restored.


http://1000daysbetween.com, http://s.wsj.net


http://weburbanist.com, www.wurlington-bros.com


Beijing today is a city that gets more highrise the further from its centre you get - the famous 'doughnut effect'.


www.wurlington-bros.com




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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 1:10 PM
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Love the Antioch one, and about the Jerusalem pic, is that larger building part of the Wailing Wall today?
I think the larger building is Herod's palace. the second temple is on the left--the extant western wall is one of the retaining walls for the temple AFAIK.
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 1:12 PM
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link below to the 'tabula peutingeriana', a 12-th century copy of a Roman map supposedly produced by Agrippa in the 1st century and showing lots of ancient cities and roads.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tingeriana.jpg

Taprobane (sri Lanka) features on the far right.
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 1:46 PM
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I hate to break it to you, but the US is a former colony of a European country therefore they teach a Eurocentric version of history along with all countries in the Americas.... History is part of the common narrative that binds society together. It's propaganda and always has been, but essential to group cohesion.
Absolutely true, what's included in the history curriculum is a political decision. But if our objective in the US is 'group cohesion', then why is our history so exclusionary? Nevermind that I don't remember getting much Irish or Scots or Polish history in my public school, or that there are more Americans whose ancestry is African or Mexican or Native American than German or English or French. Of course English history (including the history of that European backwater where the Magna Carta was signed and yeomen won the right to trial by a jury of their peers) is particularly useful to understanding our modern political institutions in North America. But generally speaking, I think children are instead taught mostly "European" history or "Western Civ", which though valuable, is one-sided in that it includes very little of the history of colonialism and the slave trade, or the history of US and European relations with Latin America, facets which would be far more useful in giving children a better understanding of their place in the world today. Not to mention the near exclusion of local history, the most relevant kind of history, due to the fact that US history textbooks are all printed in Texas.

There is plenty "known" about the history of indigenous peoples in the Americas -- not only about their wars and political institutions, but about their art and legends, way of life, and relationship with the land, its animals and resources. Given that we still inhabit this spectacular continent, maybe this information should have a larger place in our "common narrative", which includes how we manage our forests and rivers and how we practice fishing and agriculture.

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Most New World cities are probably older than Old World cities in terms of their infrastructure. Of course, this also draws out that in North America, we can live in buildings for such a long time. Most of the world doesn't take care of its buildings or anything else. Western Europe and a tiny slice of Asia
(notably Japan) has learned the art of maintenance as well but considering the wars, their buildings would mostly also be younger than so many in North America, at least.
I think nobody's mentioned it yet, but the oldest cities in the New World are unquestionably those of Latin America and the Caribbean. Maybe I'm wrong (I haven't travelled much in Appalachia or the Deep South), but I think cities like Guadalajara, Morelia, Puebla, Guanajuato, Cartagena, Quito and Havana have older and far more intact historical sections than anywhere comparable in the US, and I'd defy anyone to identify a major US city that can compare with the spectacular late-19th/early-20th-c urban fabric of Buenos Aires.

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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 3:31 PM
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Absolutely true, what's included in the history curriculum is a political decision. But if our objective in the US is 'group cohesion', then why is our history so exclusionary? Nevermind that I don't remember getting much Irish or Scots or Polish history in my public school, or that there are more Americans whose ancestry is African or Mexican or Native American than German or English or French. Of course English history (including the history of that European backwater where the Magna Carta was signed and yeomen won the right to trial by a jury of their peers) is particularly useful to understanding our modern political institutions in North America. But generally speaking, I think children are instead taught mostly "European" history or "Western Civ", which though valuable, is one-sided in that it includes very little of the history of colonialism and the slave trade, or the history of US and European relations with Latin America, facets which would be far more useful in giving children a better understanding of their place in the world today. Not to mention the near exclusion of local history, the most relevant kind of history, due to the fact that US history textbooks are all printed in Texas.

There is plenty "known" about the history of indigenous peoples in the Americas -- not only about their wars and political institutions, but about their art and legends, way of life, and relationship with the land, its animals and resources. Given that we still inhabit this spectacular continent, maybe this information should have a larger place in our "common narrative", which includes how we manage our forests and rivers and how we practice fishing and agriculture.
Not too much to argue with here. Irish, Scots and Polish history isn't thought because as you rightly pointed out, it would be a bit absurd to teach the histories of some groups and not others. Also, African and Native American are a very broad terms which are not comparable in a historical context to Irish or Polish for example. The histories of these groups should probably be covered in more depth (I don't know what is actually being thought), but this can only be done in the context of colonial history, otherwise if you go back further you would need to cherry pick some aboriginal or African groups over others.

English history is thought before the colonial period. This choice was made because the political foundation of the US was based on the English system, it used to be an English colony and it's history branches off directly from that of England. I suppose we could replace it with Dutch or French history, then introduce the English as rude invaders who ruled for a while before the US regained it's independence. Better yet, a full PC whitewashing would paint Europeans as the rude invaders who ruled for a while, brought slaves over but were eventually defeated and independence, plus an end to slavery was achieved. Except that the evil European settlers never left , most of us are their descendants. Reality bites.

Should the history curriculum be tweaked? Probably. Again, I don't know what is thought in the US, but if Western Civ still is then I find that heartening. Our values are founded on the values of the West, it's long history, philosophical beliefs and world view which culminated in the ages of exploration and science. It is responsible for the historically recent successes of the European colonial powers but admittedly it is also responsible for the damages wrought to other cultures. It needs to be balanced, tempered and put into context better. None the less, success speaks for itself and should not be denied.

I perceive that many today have gone beyond pointing out the faults of western civilisation and have arrived at denouncing it. Calling it the promulgator of slavery, colonialism and genocide. This is funny (yet terrifying)to me, because it is exactly these people that do NOT see the historical context and blame the "playa" instead of the "game". The "game" btw, is called natural selection in a broad sense and cultural adaptation in a somewhat narrower one. Never mind that it is EXACTLY the freedom that western society affords which allows people to question it or even learn information which makes them question it in the first place.

In conclusion, it's important to know the context of history and to realise that what you're thought is rather narrow. It's also good to update the history curriculum to give a bit of a more balanced background in a rapidly changing world. Asking for the denouncement of Western Civilization and an overturning of belief systems because one perceive oneself (wrongly) as hailing from the oppressed probably won't fly. As well, goading people into feeling guilty for their historical success will only work for a while, before major resentment sets in.
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 7:23 PM
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link below to the 'tabula peutingeriana', a 12-th century copy of a Roman map supposedly produced by Agrippa in the 1st century and showing lots of ancient cities and roads.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tingeriana.jpg

Taprobane (sri Lanka) features on the far right.
This is BEYOND fascinating... I just spent the last two hours pouring over it. Thank you so much for sharing it. On the upper left I suppose "Jbernia Ins(ula?)" is Ireland and "Thule Insula" is... Iceland? Hmm... it's a bit hard to make out the details since it's intended to be a practical road map for travelers and not a to-scale geographical map, but I can make out Scotland on the other side of Hadrian's Wall... Londinio... Dalmatian Coast featuring Ladera (modern day Zadar)... the islands of Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily and Crete...The Nile Delta featuring Memphis and the Alexandria Lighthouse to the north... Babylonia next to the Tigris... the Pillars of Hercules (gibraltar)... the ganges all the way to the east... and so so so much more... wow, what a treat!
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Old Posted Sep 23, 2017, 8:16 PM
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Well, you shouldn't be surprised that America teaches a Eurocentric historical cannon. What else would they teach? Founded and colonized by Europeans with European ideals along with European culture and tradition. The reason so little of the indigenous history gets taught is because nobody knows it. It's one thing to hear Native people lay down a creation myth or some such thing and that's respectable but myths and legends are simply not facts. As such, they are not historical.

Here in China, plenty gets taught that is considered nonsense by the rest of the world. For example, it's not just North Korea that teaches that the US started the Korean War. Never mind that every other source outside of the Soviet sphere of influence on earth has recorded exactly the opposite. Or hell, in China, they don't teach or hint that Taiwan is actually a sovereign nation. It's easy to understand why the Chinese would want Taiwan to be considered a wayward province but facts are facts and Taiwan is NOT currently part of the Chinese nation.

In Japan, it's not what they teach but what they don't teach. All that carnage in Nanking? Nah...wasn't Japan. That story is all overblown and exaggerated anyway/s. Lost the war? What war? We didn't lose a war, we stopped fighting because the emperor was weak and we were tricked and, yada, yada, yada.
Okay but just because various other countries have propaganda and ideological slants on how they teach their own history and/or world history, does not mean we can't examine the way we teach history in our society, and desire to make it more pluralistic.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2017, 1:09 AM
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I think nobody's mentioned it yet, but the oldest cities in the New World are unquestionably those of Latin America and the Caribbean. Maybe I'm wrong (I haven't travelled much in Appalachia or the Deep South), but I think cities like Guadalajara, Morelia, Puebla, Guanajuato, Cartagena, Quito and Havana have older and far more intact historical sections than anywhere comparable in the US, and I'd defy anyone to identify a major US city that can compare with the spectacular late-19th/early-20th-c urban fabric of Buenos Aires.

of course the former New Spain contains the oldest and grandest european style cities in the new world. the settlement there by European started 100 years earlier, and Spain was a superpower at the time, in contrast to 'backwater' England.

Brazil on the other hand has much newer cities since Portugal never had the power and wealth that Spain did.

In 1900 Argentina, thanks to beef and silver exports to Europe, was one of the wealthiest countries on earth. they spent that wealth on building up Buenos Aires.
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Old Posted Sep 24, 2017, 1:16 AM
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Fun fact: next to the Colosseum in Rome, once stood a bronze statue as tall as the Statue of Liberty.



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Old Posted Sep 24, 2017, 1:19 AM
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Rome had to mine a lot of metals to build these cities, built bronze statues, and arm its military.

Metal Output per annum Comment
Iron 82,500 tons
* Based on "conservative estimate" of iron production at 1.5 kg per head, assuming a population size of 55m,[30] while the similarly populous Han China, where the state prohibited private ironworks, produced around 5,000 t.[18]

Copper 15,000 tons
* Largest preindustrial producer[32]

Lead 80,000 tons
* Largest preindustrial producer.

Silver
* 200 t[35] At its peak around the mid-2nd century AD, Roman stock is estimated at 10,000 t, five to ten times larger than the combined silver mass of medieval Europe and the Caliphate around 800 AD.[36]

Gold 9 t[37]
* Production in Asturia, Callaecia, and Lusitania (all Iberian Peninsula) alone

Imagine 80,000 tons of lead produced annually, leaching into the water supply...
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2017, 1:31 AM
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dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
Some more cities:

Roman Tarragona, Spain



https://www.barcelonaexperience.com/...arragona-5.jpg

Diocletians Palace, Split, Croatia

This was built around 300 ad for the "restorer of the world", who brought Rome back from the brink of fragmentation and collapse, and defeated the Germanic Tribes and Persians (besides persecuting many Christians)



Hey look, it's Roman Athens:



link

Roman Nimes, France, well-preserved today



and finally....Roman London!



http://londontopia.net/wp-content/up...A004115-02.jpg
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2017, 8:29 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Byzantium is really more modern day Turkey, but fine. Rome and Ancient Greece were fine civilizations. The rest, meh. Nothing special.

And that's my point. I'm not saying they were necessarily backwaters, but ask your typical white guy from Wisconsin who attended public school, and he would think that Europeans dominated the world through all of recorded history.

And that explains the idiots marching in Charlottesville. All fueled by fallacy. Just add a bit of economic failure to fuel the fire.
This is actually kind of funny, this debate or whatever going on. You are making the point I try to make to my liberal college buddies. Pretty much, the West is not some unique World Power that has always been the "best" and conquers the world. We have had many "United States" and "Britain" and power nations, period. There is nothing unique about Europeans(in a non-rude way, mind you) other than they have been the most recent "most powerful" and also their timing couldn't have been better. They came to power and then began inventing things like crazy while the Church also began to lose power.

China should have had Britain or Spain's spot, but they decided to shun the world(im being general here).

So for my liberal college friends, there is nothing unique about a powerful culture, you just so happen to live in one, get over it.

Last edited by jtown,man; Sep 24, 2017 at 8:49 PM.
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