Are New World cities on average, actually older than Old World ones?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by muppet

Mate, that's a 2007 paper on a completely different site in a different country, that makes a passing reference to the 1990 study done on Tikal, that used the buildings found theory to extrapolate a population estimate.

Tikal would be the same "country" back then. It would all be the same Mesoamericans. Even today, most Guatemalans have Mayan background, with the same ethnic mix as the southernmost states of Mexico.

[dubu]

Why does it take so long for a city to get big? If a city started out right now it would take 200 years to get big. That's why lots of people live in trailers, there's no cities to live in.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Tikal would be the same "country" back then. It would all be the same Mesoamericans. Even today, most Guatemalans have Mayan background, with the same ethnic mix as the southernmost states of Mexico.

With regard to "the same country" are we talking about comparing the later Aztec city Tenochtitlan to the earlier lowland Mayan cities (like Tikal), or cities all across Mesoamerica at one given time?, Because the classic Mayan cities and the later Aztec cities, while both Mesoamerican civilizations, are separated in time as much as roughly speaking, late Classical Antiquity when the Roman Empire was at its end and the early part of the European Renaissance.

The Aztecs rose to prominence from the 1300s until Spanish conquest, while the Mayans arose as a civilization earlier and had their classic period in the first few centuries AD until suffering a collapse in the 9th century AD.

The city of Tikal does have evidence for influence and conquest by people from the Valley of Mexico, where there are records that a city there, Teotihuacan, that's also said to be among the largest pre-Columbian cities at the time, went down and conquered the Mayan city in the 4th century.

However, whether the Mexican city Teotihuacan that supposedly conquered the Maya-ruled Tikal in the 4th century has any continuity with later Aztecs is still a subject of much dispute. It was already in ruins by the time the Aztecs arrived and its name, Teotihuacan, was given by the Aztecs who arrived there. The Aztec capital Tenochtitlan, while not too far off geographically, was founded later in 1325.

[pizzaguy]

Originally Posted by 10023

I don't consider Africa to be "the Old World" aside from the Maghreb and Egypt. And yes Australia and New Zealand are always considered the New World.

We get it dude, you're racist. Try being more subtle.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by 10023

This is not only completely false but irrelevant to my statement.

Timbuktu was a relatively large cosmopolitan city in the 14th century. It was also one of the most educated cities in the world with an internationally renowned university and many libraries. London by comparison was a quaint village of uneducated people living in filth, that had just been ravaged by the plague.

This is why it is important for people to read books and at least have a little bit of knowledge in WORLD history. It's obvious from your ignorant and reactionary posts on this forum that you never met a book you liked. Unfortunately, your whole world view is very racialized and rather Eurocentric.

2222 Facts About Africa

https://books.google.com/books?id=c2...london&f=false

[goat314]

Originally Posted by pizzaguy

We get it dude, you're racist. Try being more subtle.

There are people on this forum that make a lot of ignorant statements and if they are presented with different information that doesn't align with their racist, classist, or elitist worldview, they are completely dismissive and start attacking you personally. We can post citations from multiple sources and the associated pictures, but if it does not align with their preconceived notions about history and/or culture they will dismiss them as "social justice warrior" nonsense. It's really sad, but hey you can't convince people of a truth they don't want to see.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by goat314

Timbuktu was a relatively large cosmopolitan city in the 14th century. It was also one of the most educated cities in the world with an internationally renowned university and many libraries. London by comparison was a quaint village of uneducated people living in filth, that had just been ravaged by the plague.

This is why it is important for people to read books and at least have a little bit of knowledge in WORLD history. It's obvious from your ignorant and reactionary posts on this forum that you never met a book you liked. Unfortunately, your whole world view is very racialized and rather Eurocentric.

2222 Facts About Africa

https://books.google.com/books?id=c2...london&f=false

10023 is just all about being British, and it makes him feel better in his trousers to view the world with his own distorted lens. Never mind the fact that for most of British history they were backwards, had toilets for cities (which weren't even that large), and did nothing innovative until recent centuries. And that's cool--a lot of the world was like that. But don't deny history like a douchebag--there were great civilizations out there, and most of them weren't in Europe until recent times.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by goat314

There are people on this forum that make a lot of ignorant statements and if they are presented with different information that doesn't align with their racist, classist, or elitist worldview, they are completely dismissive and start attacking you personally. We can post citations from multiple sources and the associated pictures, but if it does not align with their preconceived notions about history and/or culture they will dismiss them as "social justice warrior" nonsense. It's really sad, but hey you can't convince people of a truth they don't want to see.

I've discussed this before. It's the American education system. It's absolute crap. It teaches a fake view of history that laughably treats western history as "world history" and gives one the impression that the Roman Empire, one of countless large empires in history, was somehow the "Greatest empire in the world" that came up with ALL of its own innovations.

Pure trash, and it must be ignored. It's like Trumpian fake news blasted into the minds of every American child, and it is the source of all these white supremacy boneheads you see marching around the country. Blue collar kids who are failing the global economy are being fed this blatant lie, and go around angry that they have been "betrayed" as if they are part of some master race that is 5000 years old.

I am mad that I had to learn so much European history. I want to de-learn some of it. A lot of it is boring and useless. I don't care about those dumb French and English kings. It's not important. There are some things that are important, of course, but way too much of it doesn't matter unless you take personal interest in it (you are descended from Europeans).

I had to go out on my own and study Asian history and I'm quite annoyed I had to do that, because America's worthless education system doesn't teach SHIT about the history of the world (as evidenced by some of the posts we read here). I would expect better from this forum but the same ignoramuses who attack Trump are guilty of the same fake facts and ethnocentrism as the "deplorables" they so despise.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

I've discussed this before. It's the American education system. It's absolute crap. It teaches a fake view of history that laughably treats western history as "world history" and gives one the impression that the Roman Empire, one of countless large empires in history, was somehow the "Greatest empire in the world" that came up with ALL of its own innovations.

Pure trash, and it must be ignored. It's like Trumpian fake news blasted into the minds of every American child, and it is the source of all these white supremacy boneheads you see marching around the country. Blue collar kids who are failing the global economy are being fed this blatant lie, and go around angry that they have been "betrayed" as if they are part of some master race that is 5000 years old.

I am mad that I had to learn so much European history. I want to de-learn some of it. A lot of it is boring and useless. I don't care about those dumb French and English kings. It's not important. There are some things that are important, of course, but way too much of it doesn't matter unless you take personal interest in it (you are descended from Europeans).

I had to go out on my own and study Asian history and I'm quite annoyed I had to do that, because America's worthless education system doesn't teach SHIT about the history of the world (as evidenced by some of the posts we read here). I would expect better from this forum but the same ignoramuses who attack Trump are guilty of the same fake facts and ethnocentrism as the "deplorables" they so despise.

2000 years ago:

• Video Link

India and China had equivalently powerful states at the time. But Rome and Greece helped shaped western culture. this is why they are studied more in the west. I should think this is obvious.

Also the number of primary sources about ancient Greece and Rome is colossal. Books, letters, histories, poems, on and on and on. It's very easy to study the past as a result. Not sure this is the case for India and China, or other cultures.

If anything, the contribution of cultures like Islam and China to innovation is over-emphasized in our educational system. Everyone knows that the Muslims preserved many ancient greek texts. Everybody knows how the Chinese invented gunpowder.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

10023 is just all about being British, and it makes him feel better in his trousers to view the world with his own distorted lens. Never mind the fact that for most of British history they were backwards, had toilets for cities (which weren't even that large), and did nothing innovative until recent centuries. And that's cool--a lot of the world was like that. But don't deny history like a douchebag--there were great civilizations out there, and most of them weren't in Europe until recent times.

In Europe:

Byzantium was great 1500 years ago. Ottonian Germany was great 1000 years ago. Carolingian France was great 1200 years ago. Gothic France was great 800 years ago. Rome was great 2000 years ago. Ancient Greece was great 2500 years ago. Hellenistic Greece was great 2300 years ago. Mycaenae (pre-ancient Greece) was great 3000 years ago. The Etruscans were great 2500 years ago. The culture that produced the cave paintings was great 35,000 years ago. Ancient Celts, Germans and other cultures had their own civilizations which we probably under-value.

Civilizations have been great in Europe for thousands of years - just like in India and China (the oldest world civilizations).

That said you're right the UK was kind of a backwater of western civ until after Henry VIII.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

2000 years ago:

• Video Link

India and China had equivalently powerful states at the time. But Rome and Greece helped shaped western culture. this is why they are studied more in the west. I should think this is obvious.

Also the number of primary sources about ancient Greece and Rome is colossal. Books, letters, histories, poems, on and on and on. It's very easy to study the past as a result. Not sure this is the case for India and China, or other cultures.

They borrowed a lot of their culture from Africans as well, some as far as way as Ethiopia (which is one of the oldest continuous nation-states in the world). Ethiopian is actually a Greek word by the way.

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

If anything, the contribution of cultures like Islam and China to innovation is over-emphasized in our educational system. Everyone knows that the Muslims preserved many ancient greek texts. Everybody knows how the Chinese invented gunpowder.

What???? With millions upon millions of American children reading schools books made by evangelicals in Texas that want to take American slavery out of texbooks, this simply not true.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by goat314

They borrowed a lot of their culture from Africans as well, some as far as way as Ethiopia (which is one of the oldest continuous nation-states in the world). Ethiopian is actually a Greek word by the way.

"They borrowed", well yes, in that Greece was part of a world that included Egypt, Persia, Assyria, Anatolia, Babylon, Elam, Ethiopia/Nubia, the Phoenicians, the Etruscans, the colonies of magna Grecia etc. in a small globalized environment like this, some borrowing and cultural exchange was always taking place. See: the Indian statues of Buddha reflecting Greek influences after the conquests of Alexander the Great.

but are you saying that (for example) Greek sculpture, is somehow not indigenous to Greece but from somewhere else? Or that the Iliad and Odyssey are actually from Ethiopia? I highly doubt it...

[BnaBreaker]

Bickering aside, I am absolutely in love with this thread, and I want to thank muppet in particular for his beautiful and enlightening posts on the topic. Some of the cities you brought up muppet, I had never even been exposed to before. More please!!

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

In Europe:

Byzantium was great 1500 years ago. Ottonian Germany was great 1000 years ago. Carolingian France was great 1200 years ago. Gothic France was great 800 years ago. Rome was great 2000 years ago. Ancient Greece was great 2500 years ago. Hellenistic Greece was great 2300 years ago. Mycaenae (pre-ancient Greece) was great 3000 years ago. The Etruscans were great 2500 years ago. The culture that produced the cave paintings was great 35,000 years ago. Ancient Celts, Germans and other cultures had their own civilizations which we probably under-value.

Civilizations have been great in Europe for thousands of years - just like in India and China (the oldest world civilizations).

That said you're right the UK was kind of a backwater of western civ until after Henry VIII.

Byzantium is really more modern day Turkey, but fine. Rome and Ancient Greece were fine civilizations. The rest, meh. Nothing special.

And that's my point. I'm not saying they were necessarily backwaters, but ask your typical white guy from Wisconsin who attended public school, and he would think that Europeans dominated the world through all of recorded history.

And that explains the idiots marching in Charlottesville. All fueled by fallacy. Just add a bit of economic failure to fuel the fire.

[Encolpius]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

"They borrowed", well yes, in that Greece was part of a world that included Egypt, Persia, Assyria, Anatolia, Babylon, Elam, Ethiopia/Nubia, the Phoenicians, the Etruscans, the colonies of magna Grecia etc. in a small globalized environment like this, some borrowing and cultural exchange was always taking place. See: the Indian statues of Buddha reflecting Greek influences after the conquests of Alexander the Great.

but are you saying that (for example) Greek sculpture, is somehow not indigenous to Greece but from somewhere else? Or that the Iliad and Odyssey are actually from Ethiopia? I highly doubt it...

Greece was such a crucible of the arts and letters because it was a maritime civilization with cosmopolitan cities full of immigrants. To claim its culture was 'indigenous to Greece' is absurd. Anyway, it detracts nothing from their sublime achievements to acknowledge that the cradle of Western Civ, the origin of western (i.e. Greek and Semitic) religious ideas, literature, sculpture, architecture and philosophy, is Egypt.

[10023]

Originally Posted by pizzaguy

We get it dude, you're racist. Try being more subtle.

Originally Posted by goat314

Timbuktu was a relatively large cosmopolitan city in the 14th century. It was also one of the most educated cities in the world with an internationally renowned university and many libraries. London by comparison was a quaint village of uneducated people living in filth, that had just been ravaged by the plague.

This is why it is important for people to read books and at least have a little bit of knowledge in WORLD history. It's obvious from your ignorant and reactionary posts on this forum that you never met a book you liked. Unfortunately, your whole world view is very racialized and rather Eurocentric.

I've got a degree in History from one of the better public universities in the US.

Timbuktu was a major trading center in Muslim North Africa along the Saharan trading routes. It was connected socially and economically to Middle Eastern and Maghrebi civilization.

Perhaps I should have been more precise and said sub-Saharan Africa, but I write 95% of my SSP posts from an iPhone, and usually quickly.

And that still doesn't change the other colloquial meaning of "Old World", which refers more specifically to the European countries that colonists in the Americas came from.

Whether or not London was a provincial backwater until the early modern period in Europe (and yes, I agree with you that it was) is completely irrelevant to this.

[JManc]

Holy crap people...calm down. let's not drag race into an otherwise great thread.

[muppet]

Ancient Xian

The first few seconds of this video intro shows the scale of the city, China's first 'million person' city according to the court records. By 750AD it had 1 million within the city
walls and 1.98 million including those outside. It was subdivided into walled districts to subdue the populace, with massive streets up to 492 ft across acting as firebreaks.

• Video Link

And at 02:35 Chang'An gets a fly through

• Video Link


The Epang Palace was the first totalitarian complex, almost as large (137 acres) as the Forbidden City, the world's largest palace (178 acres).

• Video Link


The Daming Palace was 4x the size the Forbidden City, and built by China's first Empress, Wu Zetian, in her typical style, to outdo the male rulers before her.
(She was buried in a 1000ft tall white pyramid, made by carving and bricking over a natural hill).

• Video Link


Weiyang Palace (aka the 'Endless Palace') was the largest ever built. It was 1,200 acres (4.8 sq km) , or 6.7x the size of the Forbidden City.

This is just one corner of the complex:


www.cgtrader.com
It had dozens of huge pavilions that were the largest single ancient buildings in Han China (Tibet had larger).

http://m.easytourchina.com

http://travelneu.com

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Byzantium is really more modern day Turkey, but fine. Rome and Ancient Greece were fine civilizations. The rest, meh. Nothing special.

And that's my point. I'm not saying they were necessarily backwaters, but ask your typical white guy from Wisconsin who attended public school, and he would think that Europeans dominated the world through all of recorded history.

And that explains the idiots marching in Charlottesville. All fueled by fallacy. Just add a bit of economic failure to fuel the fire.

Byzantium was a greek culture. the capital was in Europe (golden horn). back than alexandria/antioch/etc were the capitals of christendom (not paris or london)

turkey came 1200 years later

[dc_denizen]

Some ancient Roman and Greek cities:

Ancient Pergamum:



Roman Carthage:



link

Roman Silchester, UK



link

Roman Cologne, Germany



link

Roman Antioch:



link

Ancient Greek Ephesus:



link

Roman Trier, Germany



Roman Jerusalem



link

Roman Reims, France



link

Roman Paris. Note the Cluny baths (thermae) in the middle



https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...06219577713140