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  #81  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 8:54 PM
noodlenoodle noodlenoodle is offline
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Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
as i noted previously, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions and you are entitled to and capable of defending them. that's not what's being questioned here. again. what's being questioned here are the assumptions and judgements you make about others based simply on how they align themselves with your opinions facts be damned.
I consider myself a fairly reasonable wordsmith, but sometimes you come in and I feel like a little leaguer in the shadow of Babe Ruth.
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  #82  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:09 PM
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Not to stir the pot, but not having a balcony - and maybe even if I did - love on a warm night to take my (highly illegal) campari and soda down to Beaver Hills Park to sit by the waterfall.

Thing is, cities like Paris were built over the centuries by kings, queens, duchesses and dukes to have grand boulevards and - in areas now considered hip - narrow, windy streets that now suit the patio concept.

Sure there are things we can do, but I might humbly suggest we start with landscaping that makes an outdoor experience enjoyable patio or no.
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  #83  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
no, i did not miss your point, you still seem to be missing your own point.

my comments were not about "a patio". i simply used the example of patios - which are private spaces - to point out how private spaces can address public needs.

my references to public spaces was not to a patio. the two quoted examples noted were to "parks" and "squares", not to patios. and when i noted that i happily support investment in public spaces, rest assured that includes "our park spaces, our blvds, our care, attention and investment in squares, fountains, places for anyone and everyone".

as for your "the only crap here is how little most people seem to care about this city, its spaces and its potential", i again take offense at your presumption and your judgement that most people don't care about this city, its spaces and it's potential just because they don't agree with you whether or not you choose to include me in that most. because that's what's crap.

as i noted previously, you are perfectly entitled to your opinions and you are entitled to and capable of defending them. that's not what's being questioned here. again. what's being questioned here are the assumptions and judgements you make about others based simply on how they align themselves with your opinions facts be damned.
Ken, you and I align on most things with and while our approach might be a bit different, at heart I think we want similar things to occur (continue and new) with this city.

My issue is to ensure that we continue to work on improving our public spaces, specifically those places such as squares, urban parks, blvds and gathering places to make city living and higher density living more viable, more popular and more interesting.

We need to experience Edmonton as if we are visitors more often and more frequently.
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  #84  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:21 PM
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For a city of 800,000 people and only about 150 years old... we have great public spaces.

We are not Paris, Tokyo, London. Some of you need to seriously consider where you are.
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  #85  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
Ken, you and I align on most things with and while our approach might be a bit different, at heart I think we want similar things to occur (continue and new) with this city.

My issue is to ensure that we continue to work on improving our public spaces, specifically those places such as squares, urban parks, blvds and gathering places to make city living and higher density living more viable, more popular and more interesting.

We need to experience Edmonton as if we are visitors more often and more frequently.
What improvements do you want to see to our blvds, parks, squares and gathering places? Why do you want to solely focus on making higher density living more viable? We need a city for all walks of life, not just your vision. The problem you seem to not understand is that you're only considering your lifestyle and desires, which often doesn't align with the rest of the city.
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  #86  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by feepa View Post
For a city of 800,000 people and only about 150 years old... we have great public spaces.

We are not Paris, Tokyo, London. Some of you need to seriously consider where you are.
Saskatoon impressed me, as does Calgary, Winnipeg, London Ont, even Lethbridge...
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  #87  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:34 PM
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Go on, what's different/better in those cities that impresses you that we don't have available already in Edmonton. Seriously interested in that.

I've lived and been a visitor in all your examples except Lethbridge.

Let's also remember that often times we are negative on our own city, but when visiting somewhere else, we have rose-coloured glasses on.
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  #88  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:37 PM
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Originally Posted by feepa View Post
What improvements do you want to see to our blvds, parks, squares and gathering places? Why do you want to solely focus on making higher density living more viable? We need a city for all walks of life, not just your vision. The problem you seem to not understand is that you're only considering your lifestyle and desires, which often doesn't align with the rest of the city.
We have lost A LOT of our creative and professional classes because our focus has been suburban development. Thankfully this is shifting, but there is a lot of work still to do so that we can compete with other cities. We need more high quality urban parks, more playgrounds, more beauty, more fountains and a higher quality of urban design to ensure we retain these folks as best we can.
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  #89  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
My issue is to ensure that we continue to work on improving our public spaces, specifically those places such as squares, urban parks, blvds and gathering places to make city living and higher density living more viable, more popular and more interesting.

We need to experience Edmonton as if we are visitors more often and more frequently.
Aaaaaaand we're back to you wanting to improve things in a way that only promotes your agenda & pays no heed to the vast majority of Edmontonians for whom your idea of "city living" is anathemic & always will be.

In my opinion, Edmonton needs to accept the fact it's not going to ever have a CBD like Calgary or a highly-residential downtown core like Vancouver & try and figure out how to best improve the sustainability of the built forms, values, lifestyles & priorities shared by the people to whom our suburbs are appealing. Artificially pumping up Downtown through ridiculously disproportionate spending on stimulus inside the neighborhood hasn't really done anything to reverse the hollowing out trends & Downtown Edmontonians continue to be a smaller & smaller proportion of Edmontonians writ large.

I know I don't share the values, priorities & lifestyles of the urban-uber-alles crowd on the forums, nor the silent suburbanites who form the backbone of our city. But I'm cognizant they're MY values, priorities & lifestyle with the onus on me alone to live my life according to the values I hold. I don't begrudge anyone who does the same, even if that means one or both of us can't get our whole way & I certainly would never hold up my personal priorities as an example or portray them as the only real or logical choice.
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  #90  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by feepa View Post
Go on, what's different/better in those cities that impresses you that we don't have available already in Edmonton. Seriously interested in that.

I've lived and been a visitor in all your examples except Lethbridge.

Let's also remember that often times we are negative on our own city, but when visiting somewhere else, we have rose-coloured glasses on.
Certainly visiting somewhere else you often get those glasses.

Vis a vis Calgary is a simple and very clear example of who much higher their level of urban design is and quality of urban spaces. I am always impressed with each visit at the high quality of many of their spaces.
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  #91  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:41 PM
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We have lost A LOT of our creative and professional classes because our focus has been suburban development.
no, most of those left because of economy issues of the 90s and has little to do with high quality parks, and those that left certainly didn't leave for Saskatoon, Winnipeg or Lethbridge. If they left for Calgary, it's very well because better opportunities in those professions exist there, not because they have better parks.

Let's just face reality here. Our workforce is not the same as Calgary. We are a hands on city. Our work force is highly industrialized, not white collar. Most of our workers are high paid trades and involved with the diverse industry we have. Until you are able to comprehend and recognize this, you will be forever out of touch with the reality that is Edmonton. There is nothing wrong with our work force either. It might not suit your career path very well, but these people are valuable contributors to Edmonton and society.
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  #92  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:43 PM
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Because they have more complete urban living options and more opportunities, hence why we need to continue to do more here to compete and provide more reasons to stay.
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  #93  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:43 PM
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A few things to consider here...

Yes, Edmonton is a young city, built predominantly in the automobile age. This has shaped our city's values and what we now have to work with. I don't besiege those that subscribe to the suburban lifestyle. It is ingrained in our culture and although it may slowly change over the long term, for the near and mid term, it is something we'll have to deal with. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be crammed into a tiny apartment with a half fridge just to have access to high quality urban environments. Personally, it doesn't even appeal to me, despite being a person with more urbane aspirations.

However, although I think it is realistic for the suburban lifestyle to continue to be popular in cities like Edmonton, the way we are building them is unequivocally awful. We can continue to build suburbs, while also fostering growth within the existing urban fabric, but build them more sustainably so that they are healthier for the environment and for its inhabitants. Places like Terwillegar Towne are a good step, and Griesbach has potential, but we need to be doing better at building higher quality, sustainable suburban development that are as walkable and velomobile as they are automobile.

Edmonton isn't a major tourist draw like Paris or even smaller, comparable cities like Ottawa or Edinburgh. Sure, that's true. But, without even thinking about the possibility of that changing in the future, because Edmonton certainly doesn't have to cater to tourists if it doesn't want to, it can and should be trying to attract new denizens. If we subscribe to the status quo of only catering to existing, predominant demographics, we will fall behind economically. There is already a considerable brain drain away from Edmonton, despite having one of the country's top universities, by the creative class to cities where there isn't such a knee-jerk reaction to being open to patios. Like it or not, to be competitive in the 21st century, we need to look at ways of attracting these creative types to diversify our economy and keep progressing forward and until recently, Edmonton has been doing a piss-poor job at doing so.
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  #94  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
Certainly visiting somewhere else you often get those glasses.

Vis a vis Calgary is a simple and very clear example of who much higher their level of urban design is and quality of urban spaces. I am always impressed with each visit at the high quality of many of their spaces.
Really? I'm finding that much a stretch. Outside of them having a bigger CBD, the cities are pretty identical in layout and build form.
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  #95  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:46 PM
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Because they have more complete urban living options and more opportunities, hence why we need to continue to do more here to compete and provide more reasons to stay.
Again, you're only representing your own personal preferences and ignoring what Edmonton is made up of. People from all across Canada and further come to live and stay and work in Edmonton. We don't need to emulate Calgary. We need to be Edmonton.
I'm constantly in touch and introduced to people that are eager to come to Edmonton to work, live and play. They are impressed with our city and its offerings. They realize what Edmonton is right away and the great values it has for raising a family. There is more to life and city living than urban parks. Life is family. We have a great city to raise families in. Probably the best in Canada, with the best wages to go with that.
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  #96  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:48 PM
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We need more high quality urban parks, more playgrounds, more beauty, more fountains and a higher quality of urban design to ensure we retain these folks as best we can.
Why are these people worth retaining/attracting at the cost of lowering quality of life for the vast majority of Edmontonians? I get that they're your sorta people, but objectively why is it inherently superior to attract a banker that makes $100k/year in an office tower downtown versus a pipefitter who makes $100k/year in a Nisku mod yard, now that we've traded the infrastructure costs of supporting the latter's lifestyle to pay for all the infrastructure you're proposing that attracted the former?
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  #97  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by noodlenoodle View Post
Aaaaaaand we're back to you wanting to improve things in a way that only promotes your agenda & pays no heed to the vast majority of Edmontonians for whom your idea of "city living" is anathemic & always will be.
This is kind of a self-fulfilling, defeatist, prophecy.

Quote:
In my opinion, Edmonton needs to accept the fact it's not going to ever have a CBD like Calgary or a highly-residential downtown core like Vancouver
I think a high-density residential downtown is definitely doable for Edmonton, actually. And we can still have our suburbs whilst doing so!

Quote:
& try and figure out how to best improve the sustainability of the built forms, values, lifestyles & priorities shared by the people to whom our suburbs are appealing.
Agreed, but downtown needs to be a piece of this as a space for all Edmontonians to converge.
Quote:
Artificially pumping up Downtown through ridiculously disproportionate spending on stimulus inside the neighborhood hasn't really done anything to reverse the hollowing out trends & Downtown Edmontonians continue to be a smaller & smaller proportion of Edmontonians writ large.
I don't think it's realistic at this stage to expect downtown Edmonton to overnight turn into a neighbourhood of 80,000 people but it is booming. Far more alive than a decade ago, that's for sure!

Quote:
I know I don't share the values, priorities & lifestyles of the urban-uber-alles crowd on the forums, nor the silent suburbanites who form the backbone of our city. But I'm cognizant they're MY values, priorities & lifestyle with the onus on me alone to live my life according to the values I hold. I don't begrudge anyone who does the same, even if that means one or both of us can't get our whole way & I certainly would never hold up my personal priorities as an example or portray them as the only real or logical choice.
This is where I appreciate what you're saying, but I think in this thread you've kind of gone to the extreme at points with attacking others, which doesn't help people see your side of the equation.
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  #98  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 9:59 PM
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We don't need to emulate, we need to be distinct, attractive and do a much better job at making this city a more interesting and inviting place to be.
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  #99  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 10:27 PM
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Well it's been a long week and I could sure use a beer. I see out my window that the patios at Craft and Sherlocks are closed, good thing the patio is open at Chez Wagner's on 48th st!

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  #100  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2016, 10:46 PM
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We don't need to emulate, we need to be distinct, attractive and do a much better job at making this city a more interesting and inviting place to be.
(emphasis mine)

This coming from the guy who has bemoaned our lack of Parisian cafes, Japanese izakayas, & Irish pubs; compares us to no end to whatever city he's last been to while literally asking for it to be emulated & routinely posts pictures of buildings he'd love to have lifted whole cloth & deposited wherever, land values, context & reality be damned.

All you seemingly want is for Edmonton to be a Frankenstein's Monster of emulation. All of the best parts of all of the places you've been with none of the downsides, cultural history, context or otherwise inconvenient side effects.

"We don't need to emulate" indeed.
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