Winnipeg Jets

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I feel like Scheifele took 3 years. He was drafted in 2011 and didn't make the team in year 1 2011/12. The next year he didn't make the team for the 2012/13 season but then made the team in his 3rd year of eligibility 2013/14.

I think that's what BlackDog was getting at... with the January start to the 2012-13 season, it's likely that the Jets opted to keep Scheif in the OHL to get a full season under his belt. Had there not been a lockout, he stood a decent chance of making the Jets roster that season.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

It only took Scheifele two years to crack the Jets lineup. He arguably could have made the team during the lockout shortened season, but perhaps the Jets wanted him to remain in Junior to develop.

Not just the Jets but a lot of NHL teams during the lockout opted to have junior eligible players spend the full seasons with their junior teams. It meant that they got a lot more playing/practice time to work on their skills. Additionally, it "saved" a year of protected status when they moved up to the NHL.

[esquire]

Totally hypothetical discussion point:

Winnipeg has a notoriously hard time attracting NHL free agents. We all know this. The state of our downtown wasn't helping in that regard, and it's going to get a lot worse for at least a few years following the pandemic given all of the store and restaurant closures that have already happened and will continue to happen in 2021.

When the time eventually comes to build a new rink, does TNSE look to build in suburbia? Or even in a place near downtown but not in it, like Polo Park? Does playing somewhere that feels clean, polished and sanitized help you attract players? Or is TNSE just too invested in downtown through its sister companies to take that approach?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

Totally hypothetical discussion point:

Winnipeg has a notoriously hard time attracting NHL free agents. We all know this. The state of our downtown wasn't helping in that regard, and it's going to get a lot worse for at least a few years following the pandemic given all of the store and restaurant closures that have already happened and will continue to happen in 2021.

When the time eventually comes to build a new rink, does TNSE look to build in suburbia? Or even in a place near downtown but not in it, like Polo Park? Does playing somewhere that feels clean, polished and sanitized help you attract players? Or is TNSE just too invested in downtown through its sister companies to take that approach?

I think TNSE stays downtown. They have an obvious vested interest in being there, and I think that by the time it comes to arena replacement, we'd most likely have recovered and moved on already. Unless this current situation completely obliterates the downtown area.

As an optimist, I think things will move in the right direction, and the trend to have an influx of investment downtown will continue and there will be no desire to leave the area.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by esquire

Totally hypothetical discussion point:

Winnipeg has a notoriously hard time attracting NHL free agents. We all know this. The state of our downtown wasn't helping in that regard, and it's going to get a lot worse for at least a few years following the pandemic given all of the store and restaurant closures that have already happened and will continue to happen in 2021.

When the time eventually comes to build a new rink, does TNSE look to build in suburbia? Or even in a place near downtown but not in it, like Polo Park? Does playing somewhere that feels clean, polished and sanitized help you attract players? Or is TNSE just too invested in downtown through its sister companies to take that approach?

Are we just going to sit here and pretend that TN hasn't privately invested billions of dollars downtown and that all levels of government haven't invested billions DOWNTOWN, and that there are plans to invest further BILLIONS downtown. Downtown Winnipeg has become a self sustaining residential neighborhood so it has the benefit of serving it's own population while also being a destination for people from the suburbs as well as tourists and business people. The suburbs don't operate like this. They only serve their population. Downtown continues to add thousands of people yearly and that trend shows no sign of slowing pandemic or not.

[esquire]

^ To play devil's advocate, one could also successfully build a profitable suburban development around an arena...

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ To play devil's advocate, one could also successfully build a profitable suburban development around an arena...

Please provide a few examples. I'll wait.

[esquire]

How's this?

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

How's this?

Wow you couldn't have picked a worse example. The Coyotes are already fast-tracking a new arena and looking at the east end of Downtown Phoenix because this suburban development has been such a disaster. It's two hours from everywhere, and has placed the Coyotes at 28th in attendance for years. By all accounts this place is a failure from a sports entertainment perspective. The owners hired a new president and told him his priorities #1–#10 are to build a new arena in a more central, accessible, and busy area.

The moved there in 2003 and after 5 years realized it wasn't workable. Their tumultuous ownership (caused by low revenues, wonder why) forced them to say there for longer than they've wanted, and they've been on year-to-year leases for a while now while they try and find a better home and new location.

Maybe this area does OK for concerts (on-off emotional events that attract more pre- and post- spend) but for regular sporting events it's bad.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by esquire

how's this?

[blueandgoldguy]

Westgate is a disaster as the development never came close to the potential size that was once promised. Many of the businesses there closed or failed and there always seems to be a large number of vacancies.

Ottawa's development around Lansdowne failed to live up to expectations as the OSEG loses over $10 million per year. That one isn't suburban though so I guess it's not the best example.

Back to Phoenix, it is almost a certainty they will not receive the funds from the public or another private entity through a partnership to build a (minimum) $400 million arena in Scottsdale. The ROI is simply not there for the owner to spend hundreds of millions of his own personal wealth to fund one either. Best case scenario for the Coyotes, with a new arena, might be to break even, and show marginal gains in value in the next 5 - 10 years.

Ownership, of course, will continue to make sporadic announcements in the coming years regarding potential progress on the arena front and partnerships with various entities with little of substance behind them. Meanwhile, short-term (one year) agreements with the city of Glendale at their current arena will be the norm for the forseeable future...likely until the owner has had enough of the losses and the NHL has to once again look for another lackey or the team relocates.

[DavefromSt.Vital]

Actually for Ottawa the original plan was for an entertainment district around the NHL arena in Kanata. That never happened in any meaningful way.

Whether or not OSEG makes money on it, I like the little cluster that has developed at Lansdowne Park. Have been to both CFL and OHL there and have enjoyed the surrounding places.

[esquire]

That development in Glendale looks pretty prosperous to me even if the team isn't due to distance from their fanbase (assuming that there is one). I would have a hard time believing that Westgate as a whole isn't profitable even if it hasn't lived up to 100% of the expectations at the outset.

And hey, at least that arena has led to some spinoff retail, which is more than you can say for Bell MTS Place.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

Winnipeg has a notoriously hard time attracting NHL free agents. We all know this.

I would say this has far more to do with Chevy's mismanagement of the salary cap than anything else. Take Stasny. The player really fit in well with the team and clearly wanted to stay here. That said, being later in his career when a higher offer came in from elsewhere he had to follow the money. Being cap constrained Chevy couldn't match. Worse, the team has burned a few top draft picks on rental players like Stasny. Further, we haven't used our buyout to free obvious salary dollars (hello Perreault). Then finish that off with a forward heavy cap distribution leaving the team hurting on defense for years to come.

If the Jets want to become a serious contender the #1 move they need to make is getting a new GM that better understands how to make the system work.

Originally Posted by buzzg

Wow you couldn't have picked a worse example. The Coyotes are already fast-tracking a new arena and looking at the east end of Downtown Phoenix because this suburban development has been such a disaster.

Westgate is a mess. Who thought that building a pre/post game area near an NFL stadium and then sticking an NHL arena between that area and the NFL stadium was a smart idea deserves what they got.

A smarter design would have basically taken the entertainment district and had the NFL and NHL facilities as bookends. Then when the much larger crowds are attending the Cardinals games they would have more direct access to the area.

In terms of relocation, the Coyotes proposal that seems to make the most sense is the NHL basically being a secondary tenant in the in a new ASU arena with the NCAA Sun Devils Division One Men's basketball team being the primary tenant. It would be a purpose built shared facility avoiding some of the issues that happened when the team first moved to Phoenix and played out of the Sun's NBA arena. The shared ASU/Coyotes facility would also be home to the ASU women's basketball program and the ASU ice hockey program. Also being located near the north intersection of 101 and 202 it could quickly get people into/away from the site unlike Westgate which had traffic issues similar to IGF but with much smaller crowds when I was there. The new location would also be relatively close to the affluent Scottsdale community which would likely be a small plus in attracting NHL talent to the team, unlikely the 2+ hour commute to the current arena. For perspective, Westgate is similar to if the Jets played their games out of Portage La Prairie.

--

In terms of a new arena location for Winnipeg, I absolutely think it will be outside downtown. Personally I remain a strong fan of the Ex/ASD site. It is located near two major highways and can easily get traffic into/away from the site. Any future pro-sports site in Winnipeg is going to take into strong consideration the traffic issues IGF had and the lasting negative impact that short term problem has on the facility.

In terms of the Chipman owned slice of downtown, keep in mind its heavily being motivated by essentially not having the developments pay property taxes. By the time the new arena is a serious discussion those benefits will long be snuck costs and ownership of those properties might even change as part of the move.

[bomberjet]

Speaking about free agents and signing players. There is a whole ton of stuff that goes on that we never have any idea about.

Why did Nate Schmidt get traded to Vancouver as opposed to Winnipeg? When it sounded like there was a deal in place. Was it money, was it cap space, was it some other contractual issue that prevented it? Was it that he didn't want to come here? Who knows. That's just one case of we have no idea why.

Chevy cleared cap space to sign Stastny 3 years ago. He could've matched the extra 750k or whatever it was and we wouldn't even be talking about that. But there are reasons why and we just don't know.

Taxes is a huge factor. Winnipeg is not in the favourable category regarding taxes. Is it better for a player like Stastny to sign in Winnipeg or Vegas when making the same salary. Answer is Vegas.

A whole bunch of things come into play. Not just Chevy's apparent mis-management. IMO Chevy's done decently well. Some good things, some bad things. That's life after being a GM for 10 years.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I would say this has far more to do with Chevy's mismanagement of the salary cap than anything else. Take Stasny. The player really fit in well with the team and clearly wanted to stay here. That said, being later in his career when a higher offer came in from elsewhere he had to follow the money. Being cap constrained Chevy couldn't match. Worse, the team has burned a few top draft picks on rental players like Stasny. Further, we haven't used our buyout to free obvious salary dollars (hello Perreault). Then finish that off with a forward heavy cap distribution leaving the team hurting on defense for years to come.

If the Jets want to become a serious contender the #1 move they need to make is getting a new GM that better understands how to make the system work.



Westgate is a mess. Who thought that building a pre/post game area near an NFL stadium and then sticking an NHL arena between that area and the NFL stadium was a smart idea deserves what they got.

A smarter design would have basically taken the entertainment district and had the NFL and NHL facilities as bookends. Then when the much larger crowds are attending the Cardinals games they would have more direct access to the area.

In terms of relocation, the Coyotes proposal that seems to make the most sense is the NHL basically being a secondary tenant in the in a new ASU arena with the NCAA Sun Devils Division One Men's basketball team being the primary tenant. It would be a purpose built shared facility avoiding some of the issues that happened when the team first moved to Phoenix and played out of the Sun's NBA arena. The shared ASU/Coyotes facility would also be home to the ASU women's basketball program and the ASU ice hockey program. Also being located near the north intersection of 101 and 202 it could quickly get people into/away from the site unlike Westgate which had traffic issues similar to IGF but with much smaller crowds when I was there. The new location would also be relatively close to the affluent Scottsdale community which would likely be a small plus in attracting NHL talent to the team, unlikely the 2+ hour commute to the current arena. For perspective, Westgate is similar to if the Jets played their games out of Portage La Prairie.

--

In terms of a new arena location for Winnipeg, I absolutely think it will be outside downtown. Personally I remain a strong fan of the Ex/ASD site. It is located near two major highways and can easily get traffic into/away from the site. Any future pro-sports site in Winnipeg is going to take into strong consideration the traffic issues IGF had and the lasting negative impact that short term problem has on the facility.

In terms of the Chipman owned slice of downtown, keep in mind its heavily being motivated by essentially not having the developments pay property taxes. By the time the new arena is a serious discussion those benefits will long be snuck costs and ownership of those properties might even change as part of the move.

To think that a new arena will be built anywhere other than downtown is completely asinine.
This isn't 1980. Have we not learned our lesson the hard way on this issue? I mean come ON! No developer in their right mind is going to build an arena away from the city's best hotels (Fairmont, Fort Garry) restaurants (Deer + Almond, Merchant Kitchen) Entertainment venues (RMT, Centennial, Burton Cummings) Attractions (The Forks, Human Rights Museum) Business Infrastructure (Trade and Convention Center, Company HQ's)... not to mention a growing residential community and transportation hub. You would move away from all that to gamble on a suburban development? A model which has consistently failed time and time again?

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Wow you couldn't have picked a worse example. The Coyotes are already fast-tracking a new arena and looking at the east end of Downtown Phoenix because this suburban development has been such a disaster. It's two hours from everywhere, and has placed the Coyotes at 28th in attendance for years. By all accounts this place is a failure from a sports entertainment perspective. The owners hired a new president and told him his priorities #1–#10 are to build a new arena in a more central, accessible, and busy area.

The moved there in 2003 and after 5 years realized it wasn't workable. Their tumultuous ownership (caused by low revenues, wonder why) forced them to say there for longer than they've wanted, and they've been on year-to-year leases for a while now while they try and find a better home and new location.

Maybe this area does OK for concerts (on-off emotional events that attract more pre- and post- spend) but for regular sporting events it's bad.

Is Scottsdale the east end of Downtown Phoenix?

That metro area has about 5 downtowns, they just picked the wrong side of the metro area. The area around the arena is quite developed, and that's a big part of the problem, it's rather inaccessible for people in Mesa, Tempe, Scottsdale, Chandler, Gilbert, Apache Junction etc. Hockey doesn't have a huge fanbase there already and making people invest 6 hours in terms of travel and event to a game isn't attractive nor helpful to building that fanbase. Those cities are also where the majority of the snowbirds stay.

[buzzg]

I don't think there's a chance the next arena gets built at the edge of the city, for many reasons. IGF alone proved it sucks to be in the middle of nowhere – not only for transportation but so many people just go home after games now because there's nothing at the stadium, and everything else is a drive or additional cab away. You'd lose a lot of discretionary spending.

The being said, tricky thing downtown is where does it go? There won't be any obvious places to put it then, unless maybe WCB keeps their lot for 30 years it could work by the convention centre by orienting it E-W and closing Hargrave. That'd actually be a great spot for it.

Other option is just make the old stadium site into a field for 20-30 years (not inconceivable at this rate lol) and put it back at Polo. Would be great if they build all the residential there. Sorry PF Changs.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Speaking about free agents and signing players. There is a whole ton of stuff that goes on that we never have any idea about.

Why did Nate Schmidt get traded to Vancouver as opposed to Winnipeg? When it sounded like there was a deal in place. Was it money, was it cap space, was it some other contractual issue that prevented it? Was it that he didn't want to come here? Who knows. That's just one case of we have no idea why.

Chevy cleared cap space to sign Stastny 3 years ago. He could've matched the extra 750k or whatever it was and we wouldn't even be talking about that. But there are reasons why and we just don't know.

Taxes is a huge factor. Winnipeg is not in the favourable category regarding taxes. Is it better for a player like Stastny to sign in Winnipeg or Vegas when making the same salary. Answer is Vegas.

A whole bunch of things come into play. Not just Chevy's apparent mis-management. IMO Chevy's done decently well. Some good things, some bad things. That's life after being a GM for 10 years.

Listen to a few of the episodes with agents on Spittin Chiclets. Taxes are basically a non-factor if players have proper representation with good wealth managers/accountants. It's not really an issue. Now spending 9 months a year in SoCal or Tampa as opposed to Winnipeg could be.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

Listen to a few of the episodes with agents on Spittin Chiclets. Taxes are basically a non-factor if players have proper representation with good wealth managers/accountants. It's not really an issue. Now spending 9 months a year in SoCal or Tampa as opposed to Winnipeg could be.

A few years ago I heard an interview with prominent agent Don Meehan. Basically this same thing. Said taxes are a non issue, that if players want them to sharpen their pencils and see where they would make the absolute most, they can, but its very rare for players to base their decision on this. They base their decisions on other things than the absolute most money they can make.