Hudsons Bay Building (Winnipeg) Redevelopment

[zalf]

The Retailer of Theseus

[michaelrodents]

One would assume many many studies (this is winnipeg you know) have been done on residential conversions. All have said un workable. I am sure they might be in Victoria. Compare rent in the two cities? Random search google , Rent Prices in Winnipeg are 37.93% lower than in Victoria. How many million dollar condo on the top floor could you sell in Winnipeg vs Victoria. As much as we would all love residential conversion, it is going to take a government program to make it into a museum , gallery, archive etc. Nothing is ever going to happen with private money .

[1ajs]

why notslowly renovate it into something ike this https://www.westbeth.org

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by Hecate

How is that an advantage that the Canadian government gave them? Lol. What did the taxpaying citizens of Canada lose from that? I stand by what I said, it’s pathetic that our governments will not bail this company out. When people internationally think of Canada they think of four things beavers, moose, maple syrup, and the HBC stripes. The HBC should be a national historic retailer.

I've never once thought about HBC as any sort of iconically Canadian thing. I don't know anybody who has ever said they did.

Bailing out the "too big to fail" companies is not a service to the Canadian public. Why should we be on the hook for a company that hasn't kept up with the times? Propping up an unprofitable company just for the sake of historical significance? I'm sorry but that's just plain stupidity. If they want to do that in the States, that's fine because it's not our money but if HBC can't stay afloat, that's just not our problem.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I've never once thought about HBC as any sort of iconically Canadian thing. I don't know anybody who has ever said they did.

This is just funny. It’s a brand that is internationally known.

Bailing out the "too big to fail" companies is not a service to the Canadian public. Why should we be on the hook for a company that hasn't kept up with the times? Propping up an unprofitable company just for the sake of historical significance? I'm sorry but that's just plain stupidity. If they want to do that in the States, that's fine because it's not our money but if HBC can't stay afloat, that's just not our problem.

So bailing out a 400 year old company is too much, but corporate welfare for the richest man in Canada two blocks down the street is A-OK, got it... I’m so stupid. How could I think giving a few million to the company already owning and operating the store would be a good idea, instead, we should invest millions into the corporation that eventually buys the building for a dollar. Then we’ll give them years of tax breaks too. That’s a better solution obviously.

[esquire]

^ The trouble is that the company you want bailouts for doesn't seem particularly interested in running that store at the corner of Portage and Memorial and hasn't for the better part of 20 years... what are you going to do, force them to do it?

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

While I think it's tempting to say that the area's momentum has slowed or stopped, I'm not sure if that's really related to the HBCs decision to close. I think we're so far away from having a downtown and core population large enough and rich enough to support the Bay. I think destination retail downtown is essentially done, so retail in the area will have to mainly survive off the areas residents and people that work there.

The Bay's customers in Winnipeg have more convenient options. There just aren't enough people with enough money in the area, where the downtown Bay would be the most convenient option. I think despite a growing downtown and core population - and increasing average income, the population is still a long ways away from being able to support a store like that. But I seem to remember someone saying the store was still profitable, so maybe I'm wrong.

When my friends need to go shopping in Toronto, its way easier and more convenient for them to walk or take the streetcar to retail in the downtown/core than it is to either drive, or take transit out to a mall in the burbs. That's the reality for thousands of people there. Its the reality for way fewer here.

All of that is to say, I think the core population and average income is still growing. People here are suggesting that there's still a market for residential development in the core. I think that's the real indicator of the areas strength.

There's two separate issues here: Downtown Winnipeg and The Bay.

The Bay died in the suburban malls of Winnipeg long ago. That store no longer sells items at a price point that is acceptable to consumers. It became very niche for such a large department store. They've been undercut across the board, clothing, housewares, cosmetics. They've lost to all competitors. So they bought Zellers to actually compete in the retail market and as we know that fizzled too along with Home Outfitters. I don't see this failure as a "Downtown retail vs Suburban retail" issue, The Bay failed globally.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by Hecate

So bailing out a 400 year old company is too much, but corporate welfare for the richest man in Canada two blocks down the street is A-OK, got it... I’m so stupid. How could I think giving a few million to the company already owning and operating the store would be a good idea, instead, we should invest millions into the corporation that eventually buys the building for a dollar. Then we’ll give them years of tax breaks too. That’s a better solution obviously.

What is a few million going to do? It's a money pit. The company has declining net income of almost a billion USD per year for 3 years heading into the pandemic.

It's not a 400 year old company. It's a 15 year-old American holding company. They'll gladly take our "few million" and shutter their stores anyway. They need billions.

[Curmudgeon]

Reality, it might take a decade or more for any significant investment and re-purposing of the building. Many instances of downtown department stores in North America that sat vacant for years before being redeveloped. The Bay is a massive building, many times larger than Victoria store. It's an critical piece of the city's built fabric and it would be pure vandalism to demolish it. What's important is that there's a commitment, and yes, by governments, it'll have to be, to ensure that the building is maintained and does not fall victim to demolition by neglect, a Winnipeg staple. Hopefully the building will be used sooner rather than later but this might just be tough decade economically.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

What is a few million going to do? It's a money pit. The company has declining net income of almost a billion USD per year for 3 years heading into the pandemic.

It's not a 400 year old company. It's a 15 year-old American holding company. They'll gladly take our "few million" and shutter their stores anyway. They need billions.

The Bay never caught up to modern retailing. Gone are the days when you can charge twice as much as other retailers for many of the same items. People are more savvy now and there's so much competition. Not a two or three horse race anymore. A high-end retailer of niche and designer products works well at a few of their stores across the country but not in downtown Winnipeg. I think they do reasonably well at Polo Park. They have to downsize and move towards the higher end of the market. The mid and lower ends are pretty much saturated.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Reality, it might take a decade or more for any significant investment and re-purposing of the building. Many instances of downtown department stores in North America that sat vacant for years before being redeveloped. The Bay is a massive building, many times larger than Victoria store. It's an critical piece of the city's built fabric and it would be pure vandalism to demolish it. What's important is that there's a commitment, and yes, by governments, it'll have to be, to ensure that the building is maintained and does not fall victim to demolition by neglect, a Winnipeg staple. Hopefully the building will be used sooner rather than later but this might just be tough decade economically.

I think the iron is hot and it will be redeveloped much sooner than we expect. The store closing and the Detroit-esque boarded up appearance has created an urgency.

[esquire]

^ I figured that was the point of the plywood

It's a big building and it'll make for a complicated project, but at the same time it shouldn't be some kind of totally preposterous moon shot either. Downtown Winnipeg has absorbed more space than that over the past decade. Glad to hear that the wheels are turning.

[1ajs]

even with the damage covids done to downtown were still in better shape then it woulda ben if this had happend in the early 2000's or 90's

[esquire]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

even with the damage covids done to downtown were still in better shape then it woulda ben if this had happend in the early 2000's or 90's

Very true... I'm not sure what went on behind the scenes before the True North deal was worked out, but when Eaton's closed down in 1999 it felt like there was never any serious consideration given to reusing/redeveloping the building itself. Things have changed since then.

[Jeff]

yeah, the western fringe of downtown has densified nicely recently so if that ball keeps rolling it should help. that next residential proposal beside the art gallery can't happen soon enough!

[Hecate]

This city literally wouldn’t exist as it does today, if it wasn’t for the HBC. We’d probably all be speaking French right now. Why is it so hard to understand the importance of this company to the province and city, its blankets are world renowned, it still has a fucking Governor, it’s a Canadian company headquartered in Toronto. They even used to be headquarter in Winnipeg I might add.

[Hecate]

Yes the company is losing money, but isn’t that all to do with the poorly thought out and executed expansion in to Europe. As far as I’m aware the downtown store still made a profit up until the pandemic. The bay isn’t going away anytime soon... they closed two stores as far as I’m aware... downtown Edmonton and Winnipeg. From what I’ve read their online sales are fantastic.

[esquire]

To the extent that I cared about the fate of Hudson's Bay before, that ended when the downtown store closed. To me, they're now just JYSK or Winners with a more interesting corporate history.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Yes the company is losing money, but isn’t that all to do with the poorly thought out and executed expansion in to Europe. As far as I’m aware the downtown store still made a profit up until the pandemic. The bay isn’t going away anytime soon... they closed two stores as far as I’m aware... downtown Edmonton and Winnipeg. From what I’ve read their online sales are fantastic.

So I don't understand what exactly you would be wanting. The governments here gave True North $40m to build a $400m development in downtown Winnipeg.

If the Manitoba and Winnipeg governments were to give The Bay (headquartered in Toronto or Montreal or New York) $40m where do you think that money would go? It would go into The Bay's investors pockets or dispersed amongst its operations and the downtown Winnipeg store would still be closed. It would help nothing.

[zalf]

Originally Posted by Biff

If the Manitoba and Winnipeg governments were to give The Bay (headquartered in Toronto or Montreal or New York) $40m where do you think that money would go? It would go into The Bay's investors pockets or dispersed amongst its operations and the downtown Winnipeg store would still be closed. It would help nothing.

If government money is required to get the Downtown Bay redeveloped, it seems like it would be easy enough to make sure it's targeted to that location. Like, CoW/MB could take it upon themselves to hire crews to do the asbestos abatement specifically.