VIA Rail

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Worthless platitudes.

I know. What a joke. This is even fluffier than what I thought they'd say: that they're going to fund one of their endless studies. They can't even commit to that. At least some local caterers got paid.

[someone123]

Organizationally it seems like a mess. "Government of Canada to explore opportunities to enhance passenger rail services in Southwestern Ontario" does not really even make sense. The federal government mostly does things like managing international relations and transfers of money to other layers of government or large classes of people.

I think Canada needs a bunch of TransLink type entities that manage concrete geographical areas and physical infrastructure, have permanent budgets, look at time horizons measured in decades, consider all modes of transportation, and look at real geographical areas people need to travel in. And eventually such entities would assemble right of ways running through key parts of the country which could be developed with rail lines.

If the long run 30-50+ year view were common a lot of passenger rail projects would become "no brainers". Because there is little leadership and government initiatives currently operate on a 1-5 year cycle right now they are impractical operationally. It is not a lack of wealth or demand or engineering skills or specific physical resources that make Canada's transportation infrastructure so bad.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think Canada needs a bunch of TransLink type entities that manage concrete geographical areas and physical infrastructure, have permanent budgets, look at time horizons measured in decades, consider all modes of transportation, and look at real geographical areas people need to travel in. And eventually such entities would assemble right of ways running through key parts of the country which could be developed with rail lines.

You mean like Metrolinx?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You mean like Metrolinx?

Yeah. But better. The GTA needs something like TfL. Not the gimped agency they have in Metrolinx.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yeah. But better. The GTA needs something like TfL. Not the gimped agency they have in Metrolinx.

My impression is that Metrolinx does some metropolitan or smaller scale regional rail services plus has GO transit and so runs buses as well as part of that. TransLink handles the regional road network as well.

I think in my hypothetical scenario I'd make this more like a provincial Ontario department that looks after not just highways and regional roads but also rail and intercity bus services. Toronto would get one transit agency that handles metropolitan trips. Quebec, BC, and AB would have similar agencies. The Maritimes would get 1. Not sure about SK/MB or NL. I'd probably cut the long distance money losing VIA routes.

Just as an aside, as much as road building has a bad reputation, the provincial highway departments in some provinces have been very effective at building new infrastructure. And they often make long-term plans. They will assemble/reserve land decades before a corridor is developed. So I wonder about moving rail service closer to that model. I also wonder what makes some of the provincial highway departments better than others.

[Djeffery]

On a local media tweet about the press event today, someone commented "I'll be shovel ready long before any rail project around here will be" lol.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by someone123

My impression is that Metrolinx does some metropolitan or smaller scale regional rail services plus has GO transit and so runs buses as well as part of that. TransLink handles the regional road network as well.

I think in my hypothetical scenario I'd make this more like a provincial Ontario department that looks after not just highways and regional roads but also rail and intercity bus services. Toronto would get one transit agency that handles metropolitan trips. Quebec, BC, and AB would have similar agencies. The Maritimes would get 1. Not sure about SK/MB or NL. I'd probably cut the long distance money losing VIA routes.

This is literally the model in the UK. Transport for London does everything from subways and trains to taxi licensing, water taxis and maintenance of all major thoroughfares.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_for_London

The Brits expanded this model and created seven other subnational transport agencies.

I can imagine this can be done inside a given province. Ontario clearly needs regional transport authorities for Southwestern Ontario, the Ottawa Valley and Eastern Ontario.

I'm not sure how a subnational authority comprising several provinces would even work. What authorities would provinces cede to such an authority? Would they let them raise funds? Would they let them determine project priorities, particularly prioritizing transit over roads to compel modal shifts? How would competing priorities between different cities and provinces be resolved?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not sure how a subnational authority comprising several provinces would even work. What authorities would provinces cede to such an authority? Would they let them raise funds?

I dunno. During the pandemic VIA just stopped serving the Maritimes and so Maritime Bus provided the only public transit service to some areas. They serve all 3 Maritime provinces and get public funding.

There is also Atlantic Lotto. It is jointly owned by the 4 provinces.

I don't think it is actually a big deal in practice since the transport services basically amount to NS and NB coordinating while PEI would also have bus service. Before CN, NS and NB were served by the Intercolonial Railway and both provinces were involved in its development.

[Truenorth00]

Maybe they could turn Maritime Bus into a proper regional public transport authority.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yeah. But better. The GTA needs something like TfL. Not the gimped agency they have in Metrolinx.

Translink is only a Lower Mainland entity. BC Transit may be more of what you mean in the province.

Originally Posted by someone123

My impression is that Metrolinx does some metropolitan or smaller scale regional rail services plus has GO transit and so runs buses as well as part of that. TransLink handles the regional road network as well.

I think in my hypothetical scenario I'd make this more like a provincial Ontario department that looks after not just highways and regional roads but also rail and intercity bus services. Toronto would get one transit agency that handles metropolitan trips. Quebec, BC, and AB would have similar agencies. The Maritimes would get 1. Not sure about SK/MB or NL. I'd probably cut the long distance money losing VIA routes.

Just as an aside, as much as road building has a bad reputation, the provincial highway departments in some provinces have been very effective at building new infrastructure. And they often make long-term plans. They will assemble/reserve land decades before a corridor is developed. So I wonder about moving rail service closer to that model. I also wonder what makes some of the provincial highway departments better than others.

So, that would be the MTO - Ministry of Transport.
Within the MTO, you have 2 rail carriers - GO and ONTC. Ironically, ONTC is better equipped to do intercity rail, as they at least had the experience. It would be interesting to see the ONTC transform into a whole province transportation agency. It already covers most of Northern ON with bus, and soon, the Highway 11 corridor with intercity rail

[ssiguy]

GO could really do wonders for London but conversely it could end up being a complete dud just depending on how they implement it.

GO London would only work and be well patronized if the service to Toronto is truly fast, frequent, and reliable. That means twinning much of the track, getting the freight off it, using the southern Aldershot route {which is 18km shorter than going via Kitchener} while building the Brantford bypass, and offer express services.

Even if they do the above which greatly helps Londoners, will this mean a transfer from Sarnia & Windsor VIA service to GO at London? It will also be interesting to see if they bring in some kind of commuter service from Strathroy in the West to Ingersol/Woodstock in the East to service as a London commuter route.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

GO could really do wonders for London but conversely it could end up being a complete dud just depending on how they implement it.

GO London would only work and be well patronized if the service to Toronto is truly fast, frequent, and reliable. That means twinning much of the track, getting the freight off it, using the southern Aldershot route {which is 18km shorter than going via Kitchener} while building the Brantford bypass, and offer express services.

Even if they do the above which greatly helps Londoners, will this mean a transfer from Sarnia & Windsor VIA service to GO at London? It will also be interesting to see if they bring in some kind of commuter service from Strathroy in the West to Ingersol/Woodstock in the East to service as a London commuter route.

I guess it depends on the people you are trying to serve. Commuters would use it if it were Toronto centric. However, for travelers, that may make it unusable. Flip side is, if it were aimed at the people who are traveling with it beyond Toronto, then it may be horrible for commuters.

When the Northlander comes back, it is rumored to have 2 stops that are GO; Langstaff and Gormley. That means that for commuters, this will not have much of an effect on them, but for travelers it will help give options besides Union.

So, I would suggest... both. Having GO going to/from London and used as a commuter service makes sense. However, it will not serve everyone, and that is where Via or ONTC or another provincial agency will make sense.

[Truenorth00]

GO to Toronto? Dumb idea. Insanely long ride for a "commuter" service. That should probably be on VIA anyway.

A Southwestern Ontario version of GO centered on London? Great idea. And a good feeder to long haul VIA services.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

GO to Toronto? Dumb idea. Insanely long ride for a "commuter" service. That should probably be on VIA anyway.

A Southwestern Ontario version of GO centered on London? Great idea. And a good feeder to long haul VIA services.

People aren't usually commuting from Sarnia, Chatham, or Windsor to London. So, a GO centered on London does not actually make much sense. People are living in London and commuting to Toronto. However, an express service would be in order. Local to Hamilton, and then express to Toronto would make some sense. The question then is whether there are stops between existing Via stations between London and Hamilton should be added.

[Truenorth00]

London GO isn't just about facilitating inbound commute from Sarnia, Chatham and Windsor, though there would be an element of that. It's about facilitating regional travel, so that people can travel from London to KWC or points along the London-Hamilton corridor.

Some of that should be on VIA. A lot of that should be on commuter buses. Some of it should be on regional rail.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

London GO isn't just about facilitating inbound commute from Sarnia, Chatham and Windsor, though there would be an element of that. It's about facilitating regional travel, so that people can travel from London to KWC or points along the London-Hamilton corridor.

Some of that should be on VIA. A lot of that should be on commuter buses. Some of it should be on regional rail.

I think you are not understanding the traffic patterns. I'd agree that highways 401, 403, 7, 4, 3, and 2 should all have GO buses on it before GO trains. You would see that most travel is from within 50km to London for inbound commuters, but, same time of day, outbound commuters would be heading all the way into Toronto. A million dollars goes much further in London, and the additional commute time could be worth it for some.

[ssiguy]

I think the ideal situation would be for GO to be a commuter route serving all the main towns such as Dorchester/Ingersol/Woodstock/Paris/Brantford and/or St.Mary's/Stratford back and forth between London and Union. GO would truly be a commuter service binding the smaller centres with the bigger ones nearby and not just London & Toronto but also Kitchener & Hamilton.

By providing this more local service it would allow VIA to run only frequent express routes between London and Union which would also greatly improve service frequency and time to Sarnia and especially Windsor. This would mean St.Mary's/Strat/Inger/Wood/Brant no longer will have any VIA service but GO to get to their local main city.

In short, GO does all the milk-runs and VIA all the express.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think the ideal situation would be for GO to be a commuter route serving all the main towns such as Dorchester/Ingersol/Woodstock/Paris/Brantford and/or St.Mary's/Stratford back and forth between London and Union. GO would truly be a commuter service binding the smaller centres with the bigger ones nearby and not just London & Toronto but also Kitchener & Hamilton.

By providing this more local service it would allow VIA to run only frequent express routes between London and Union which would also greatly improve service frequency and time to Sarnia and especially Windsor. This would mean St.Mary's/Strat/Inger/Wood/Brant no longer will have any VIA service but GO to get to their local main city.

In short, GO does all the milk-runs and VIA all the express.

Would you get rid of Via stops between Hamilton/Kitchener and Union? If not, then maybe getting rid of the ones between them and London is shortsighted. Either way, the only way this can work is if on one ticketing system, you can get a ticket for both systems to complete your journey. Fare integration is the next big thing needed for all public transportation agencies.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think the ideal situation would be for GO to be a commuter route serving all the main towns such as Dorchester/Ingersol/Woodstock/Paris/Brantford and/or St.Mary's/Stratford back and forth between London and Union. GO would truly be a commuter service binding the smaller centres with the bigger ones nearby and not just London & Toronto but also Kitchener & Hamilton.

By providing this more local service it would allow VIA to run only frequent express routes between London and Union which would also greatly improve service frequency and time to Sarnia and especially Windsor. This would mean St.Mary's/Strat/Inger/Wood/Brant no longer will have any VIA service but GO to get to their local main city.

In short, GO does all the milk-runs and VIA all the express.

I can only see the need for an additional rail station between Kitchener and London in New Hamburg (pop. 13,000) and with only three intermediary stops, I don't see the point of operating GO trains on this 94 km long segment. I would therefore let GO operate Toronto-Kitchener and Toronto-Aldershot-Brantford-London and operate VIA as Express Windsor/Sarnia-London-Kitchener-Toronto, which only stop at major stations east of Kitchener, but ensure a basic service for intermediary stops west of Kitchener...

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Worthless platitudes.

Siri, when is the next election?

In similarly pointless news, the government managed to twist a routine bridge replacement into the umpteenth pre-election announcement that they are moving ahead with the future Hwy 7 between Kitchener and Guelph. They have been playing the same trick for the last 50 years, and will milk that project for every vote they can before they cancel it for good.

Anyone hoping Metrolinx will expand it's purview to include interregional transit outside the GTA is going to be sorely disappointed. As far as Metrolinx is concerned, there are two types of people - those travelling into Toronto during the week, and those travelling out of Toronto on the weekend.