Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Hatman

^^^
Yeah, the intersection at Main & 4th is capacity constrained, but that's because the junction was designed and built on the cheap, and it seriously needs to be upgraded.
This section of TRAX, between the Stadium and Main Street was rushed to completion before the 2002 Olympics, and opened less than 3 months before then (in December of 2001). The junction at Main and 4th was designed to be built FAST, so they took some shortcuts. The most obvious short cut was that there is only one motor for two switches, meaning that if you want to align a switch from the northbound position to the eastbound position, both the northbound and southbound switches are thrown together. This alone reduces the available capacity by half; imagine you've got a train about to turn from north to east (Main to 4th), from west to north (4th to main) and then one going straight south on Main. None of these movements interfere with one another, yet with the way the switch is built, it is IMPOSSIBLE for all three movements to happen all at once, because all the switches would be thrown in the wrong directions. Each movement would need to happen one at a time.
Then there is also the outdated signaling systems, the slow motors, etc. The switch is definitely going to need to be rebuilt one day, and the designers are probably pretty impressed that it has lasted this long. One of the reasons they justified doing this project on the cheap is that they thought that junction would be totally rebuilt into a 4-way 'grand union' intersection once work began on the airport line, which was thought at the time to be an extension of the University Line (FrontRunner came along and threw a wrench into the TRAX original master plan).
UTA is only just now fixing other 'done on the cheap before the Olympics' quirks along the downtown section; they only just got the two switches on 7th south to work automatically from TRAX HQ, rather than have a dude drive over in a truck and throw them by hand:
http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_...o-improve-trax
And if I were to speculate as to why they haven't fixed 4th and Main on their own, it is because they got a grant a while back ($2 million) to start running the BLACK LINE. They claimed they needed $4 million more, but the city and state didn't give them any money, and the federal government sure won't. Why does it take $6 million to start running TRAX trains you already own on track that already exists? Because there is a junction that needs to be upgraded, and UTA wants some one else to pay for that (or at least help pay for it). And so we wait for the BLACK line, instead of riding it.

My point is that when they say 'it is capacity constrained,' think 'my 8 megabyte flash drive has no more space.' The correct answer is to upgrade the flash drive, not be content with what we've got.
I personally won't be satisfied until there are SIX TRAX lines converging on a grand-union junction on Main & 4th, each operating at 10 minute headways. The Red, Blue, and Green lines remain as they are, then add in the Black line turning from 4th to Main towards the Airport. Add in a TRAX circulator that makes a loop from Main to Salt Lake Central via a 4th South line, and then extend the Blue line from Salt Lake Central station along 4th south as well, all the way up to the University. (The University line already has the high-block platforms for ADA able to handle the old Classic cars used on the Blue line, so why not?)
If each line runs at a 10 minute frequency, that means a train arrives at the intersection every 50 seconds. Compare this to the current schedule of a train every 150 seconds, and you'll see its only 3x more than what our current outdated switch can handle. It's totally doable, and the only track that needs to be built is the extension along 4th south to Salt Lake Central Station, about 1 mile. I honestly can't see why this sort of thing isn't even in the planning phases; it is more low hanging fruit, it is like putting the last piece of a puzzle in place. 1 last mile of track downtown and the operational potentials go exponential.

First by extending the blue line to the university you mean that it would first go downtown via main to Salt Lake Central and then continue up 4th South to the university right?

Second awesome post please don't let it go to waste here. You should clean that up a bit and send it to the Downtown Coalition, city council members, Salt Lake chamber of commerce, etcetera etcetera

Thanks for sharing

[jubguy3]

My dying wish is that you call it the Yellow Line.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

First by extending the blue line to the university you mean that it would first go downtown via main to Salt Lake Central and then continue up 4th South to the university right?

Yes. That is exactly what I mean.

My dying wish is that you call it the Yellow Line.

Okay. Wish granted. I will call it the Yellow Line. It will operate just like the Yellow Line/Orange Line designations on Portland's MAX, where yellow line trains become orange line trains upon entering the downtown area, and visa versa:



In my case, I'm proposing that Blue line trains become Yellow line trains as they reach Salt Lake Central Station, and visa versa. Add to this the belated Black line, plus an Orange line circulator (bidirectional), and our map would look like this:



(Note: apologies for using MS Paint. Don't look too closely - especially you, ImaJem!)

And just to remind everyone, this is NOT a pipe dream that is impossible to accomplish. All it takes is 1 mile of track down 4th South and 1 rebuilt junction at 4th South & Main. Perhaps UTA would need to order more cars to operate the 3 new colors, but these are short lines and won't require too many more vehicles to be purchased. This is a very plausible goal to strive for; we shouldn't settle for less.

[Future Mayor]

If nothing else UTA needs to upgrade the junction and put in the lines going west on 400 S from Main St, even if they don't yet have the funding to build the 1 mile section from Main to SL Central, at least get the junction upgraded and the extension in. At the very least it will be ready for the new tracks and the Black Line could begin operating.

Great information about the switch, thank you.

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Yes. That is exactly what I mean.



Okay. Wish granted. I will call it the Yellow Line. It will operate just like the Yellow Line/Orange Line designations on Portland's MAX, where yellow line trains become orange line trains upon entering the downtown area, and visa versa:



In my case, I'm proposing that Blue line trains become Yellow line trains as they reach Salt Lake Central Station, and visa versa. Add to this the belated Black line, plus an Orange line circulator (bidirectional), and our map would look like this:



(Note: apologies for using MS Paint. Don't look too closely - especially you, ImaJem!)

And just to remind everyone, this is NOT a pipe dream that is impossible to accomplish. All it takes is 1 mile of track down 4th South and 1 rebuilt junction at 4th South & Main. Perhaps UTA would need to order more cars to operate the 3 new colors, but these are short lines and won't require too many more vehicles to be purchased. This is a very plausible goal to strive for; we shouldn't settle for less.

Something to note... I like that idea, but I think the level of service going to the university is too high. In the mornings, all daybreak trains are nearly empty. The blue trains that become yellow trains would have to run with their old cars (which is a concern until UTA can replace them) with 3-4 cars and the black line would have to be at least 2 (which is the only route on this line that has a particular current need). That's going from 2-4 cars each 15 minutes to 6-11 cars each 15 minutes. I think there's a little bit of redundancy as far as the west fourth south line. This idea would be better executed with just the black line (new idea: purple 🙂) as a testing route until the need can be established for what I feel doesn't provide a significant amount of service, and that the 2nd South Street car will essentially serve. The black line only need around 3,000,000 in funding to work out signaling and maintain the thingymabob at 4th south and main street, so I feel like that's a good place to start.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

Something to note... I like that idea, but I think the level of service going to the university is too high.

This is a valid concern; let me explain myself.

1) Induced Demand works for transit just as well as it does for roads. If there is an excess of capacity it will eventually be filled. In transit it is more often referred to the 'build it and they will come' phenomenon. This alone is not enough to justify tripling the service on 4th South, but it is a start.

2) There can be a reduction in duplicate service. With the SLC-University line in place (what I have called the Yellow Line), UTA could eliminate some bus service, such as the 2X route.
Another route that could be eliminated is the future streetcar along 2nd South all the way up to the University. I'm all in favor of the 2nd South streetcar in the downtown area, but get much beyond 5th east and 2nd South isn't a good or even adequate environment for a streetcar. Look at the 1 mile stretch between 7th east and 13th east. It's all single family homes without any store fronts, apartments, or any kind of high density at all. Building a streetcar route along this section would be counterproductive - it would divert transit funds from other worthier projects while destroying the urban environment around it. Why not just run more trains on the existing tracks just two blocks to the south?

3) More capacity will be needed when FrontRunner runs more frequently. Let's say that FrontRunner gets upgraded (double-tracked and/or electrified) so that it is able to run at 15 minute frequencies. Ridership is projected to more than double under this scenario. Much of this increase will be students and employees headed to the University. Capacity on routes from the two Salt Lake City FrontRunner stations to the University will also need to double (approximately). The Black Line won't be enough, no matter how many cars it runs per train. Dumping hundreds of people from a commuter train into a single light rail train won't suffice (each FrontRunner car carries over 120 seats, while each TRAX car holds 60 seats; including standing room on both vehicles improves the ratio, but does not make it equal). So, it is a good thing that passengers arriving from the south can transfer from FR to TRAX at Salt Lake Central and passengers arriving from the north can transfer at North Temple. It severely reduces overcrowding. As a consequence, more trains run on 4th South, but given the choice, isn't an overcapacity the better problem to have?

[Future Mayor]

So looking at the map, the main line between 400 S and Arena, if trains ran 10 min intervals at peak times, that would put a train at every stop, Gallivan to Arena, every.5 minutes. Every 3.33 minutes on the University Line and the main line from Central Pointe north, and every 5 minutes south of Central Point, the airport line and 4th S between SL Central and Main.

As I look at the map I then wonder how a 700 S turn to the Granary and to SL Central (or I guess it could veer west into the Granary north of Ball Park) although serving the 9th S station would be better, IMO, would ultimately work. I would expect that such a line would go into Davis County, but where would it start in the south? Adding that line south of 9th S would put the main line at capacity at 9th, Ballpark and Central Point. Any thoughts on how a line west into the Granary could fit into the rest of the system.

As for the 200 S Streetcar I agree completely with your thoughts on that Hatman. I don't really see the need much past 7th E, maybe 9th at the furthest.

[Merewether]

As one who has logged thousands of rides between downtown and the U I would point out that bus routes like the 2,3,6 and 11 have the advantage of serving the north side of campus directly, and the 2 and 3 serve west central campus.
Buses also can make stops which are closer together. There are twice as many bus stops on South Campus Drive as Trax stops and a number of those intermediate stops- like Social Work/Library - are heavily used.
I used and enjoyed daily being able to ride Trax from campus to north downtown without a transfer in the old days but the routes above plus 220 and 455 offer many options from around campus. One of the former advantages of Trax, an easily memorized schedule, is no longer as compelling now that smartphone apps quickly identify which bus routes close to one will be served soon.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

As I look at the map I then wonder how a 700 S turn to the Granary and to SL Central (or I guess it could veer west into the Granary north of Ball Park) although serving the 9th S station would be better, IMO, would ultimately work. I would expect that such a line would go into Davis County, but where would it start in the south? Adding that line south of 9th S would put the main line at capacity at 9th, Ballpark and Central Point. Any thoughts on how a line west into the Granary could fit into the rest of the system.

I don't know that there needs to be a TRAX line out to the Granary district; I think that duty can be handled by a streetcar line. One of TRAX greatest strengths is that it takes you directly onto Main Street, so any Davis County line ought to go down Main Street also.
From there, it could go south to Fashion Place West, down the existing North-South line. During rush hours I've seen UTA run extra Red Line trains between Fashion Place West and the University to handle all the transfers from FrontRunner at Murray Central. (Fashion Place is chosen because of its extra platforms, the ability to switch trains between tracks, and the nearby maintenance facility for taking trains in and out of service.) It would be nice to make this service permanent throughout the day.

Back to streetcars, though. I've been trying to reconcile my ideal future with what can practically be done, and so I came up with this:


The blue line is the extended version of the S Line I've been talking about for several pages now - except now it turns south on 500 East and terminates at Liberty Park. The two other lines are new; the red one begins at Jordan River Park, travels along the 9 line, jogs north to 700 South, then runs up Main Street until 200 South, then curves back south to Liberty Park. The green one begins at Liberty Park, jogs over to Main Street via 700 South, heads west on 200 South, passes by Salt Lake Central, then heads over to Jordan River Park.

For a better look, here is the .kmz: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ar%20Lines.kmz

This arrangement serves to tie these two great parks (three, if you count Sugarhouse Park) into the downtown area, but I have bigger plans than that. Check out this video of bicycle facilities in Delft (in the Netherlands):

• Video Link

Now, imagine if we could build several smaller versions of this kind of bicycle facility. Jordan River Park is very well connected by the Jordan River Parkway bike trail, so we could build one there. Liberty Park is also well connected to its neighborhood via bike trails, so we would put one there. I've also shown a third by the Fairgrounds so that people riding in on the Legacy bike paths/Jordan River Parkway can transfer to the Green and Black lines there.
The idea is to promote biking where people want to bike. Use the safe bike lanes and trails, but you don't need to take your bike into the crowded downtown if you don't want to. Leave your bike at a secure bike parking facility where you know your bike won't get stolen or vandalized, then hop onto a streetcar. The streetcar can take you straight to downtown and Main Street, so you won't need to deal with urban traffic.

Bicycles downtown are great - I ride all over downtown - but it's not for everyone. If we want to really get people using active transportation for commuting, we should build better transit connections between the areas where active transportation has broad appeal and where people need to go. And streetcars are the perfect connection.

I just know I will be accused of clogging up Main Street, now that in less than a page I've proposed going from 3 lines operating on Main Street to 7 (Green, Blue, Black, Orange (circulator), Davis County, and two streetcar lines), but capacity doesn't need to be an issue. With proper traffic management, this can be done. Suppose all 7 lines run at 10 minute intervals. 10 minutes divided by 7 lines means a train (or streetcar) would arrive every 85 seconds, still more than a minute between arrivals. In fact, this means there will be 42 trains per hour, which is equal to what some metro systems already run. The point is, what I'm proposing isn't unreasonable.

[Future Mayor]

89 seconds is a really tight window, IMO. Does anyone know the a length of our stop lights on the E/W roads crossing Main, particularly at 400, 500 and 600 S that also include turning lanes?

I have always envisioned your 5th E street car running on 6th E, as it could better serve Trolley Sq, but 6th has issues such as the historic landscaped islands, and it's smaller and more residential than 5th. I have always pictured the S-line extending up 11th E, to either 13th or 9th S, heading to 9th and 9th, west to Liberty Park onto 6th(5th) and joining the downtown line on 2nd S. Again 5th would work, but with that I would hope that a midblock connection could be made from 5th to 6th, to better connect Trolley Square to the streetcar line.

I do agree that street car would work Granary. I tend to divert back to Trax in the event that a baseball stadium where to be built in the Granary district, at which time a Trax line would be needed as opposed to Streetcar. I understand the need to funnel the transit traffic to Main, but at what point and what frequency do transfers simply have to be a necessary part of the overall equation. We can only ad so many trains to Main before it simply doesn't function effectively and effects cross traffic. You refer to frequencies in other cities, and I would guess that most of those cities require a transfer at some point in a large portion of the commuters journey.

[UrbanDesign]

I asked this on the Provo thread after seeing the renderings for the BRT bus shelters, but thought this might be a better location. Why is it that we don't have more enclosed shelters on highly trafficked stops, like trax? In the winter months, I will actively plan my travels so I can minimize waiting at a stop, sometimes even decide to drive because of it. Why can't we have something that is enclosed on the sides running parallel to the platform on open on both sides? It would block the wind and snow/rain and I don't believe it would be a huge additional cost

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by UrbanDesign

I asked this on the Provo thread after seeing the renderings for the BRT bus shelters, but thought this might be a better location. Why is it that we don't have more enclosed shelters on highly trafficked stops, like trax? In the winter months, I will actively plan my travels so I can minimize waiting at a stop, sometimes even decide to drive because of it. Why can't we have something that is enclosed on the sides running parallel to the platform on open on both sides? It would block the wind and snow/rain and I don't believe it would be a huge additional cost

I would tend to agree with the answer on the Provo Thread. I am guessing it could be something to do with the homeless, possibly.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I don't know that there needs to be a TRAX line out to the Granary district; I think that duty can be handled by a streetcar line. One of TRAX greatest strengths is that it takes you directly onto Main Street, so any Davis County line ought to go down Main Street also.
From there, it could go south to Fashion Place West, down the existing North-South line. During rush hours I've seen UTA run extra Red Line trains between Fashion Place West and the University to handle all the transfers from FrontRunner at Murray Central. (Fashion Place is chosen because of its extra platforms, the ability to switch trains between tracks, and the nearby maintenance facility for taking trains in and out of service.) It would be nice to make this service permanent throughout the day.

Back to streetcars, though. I've been trying to reconcile my ideal future with what can practically be done, and so I came up with this:


The blue line is the extended version of the S Line I've been talking about for several pages now - except now it turns south on 500 East and terminates at Liberty Park. The two other lines are new; the red one begins at Jordan River Park, travels along the 9 line, jogs north to 700 South, then runs up Main Street until 200 South, then curves back south to Liberty Park. The green one begins at Liberty Park, jogs over to Main Street via 700 South, heads west on 200 South, passes by Salt Lake Central, then heads over to Jordan River Park.

For a better look, here is the .kmz: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ar%20Lines.kmz

This arrangement serves to tie these two great parks (three, if you count Sugarhouse Park) into the downtown area, but I have bigger plans than that. Check out this video of bicycle facilities in Delft (in the Netherlands):

• Video Link

Now, imagine if we could build several smaller versions of this kind of bicycle facility. Jordan River Park is very well connected by the Jordan River Parkway bike trail, so we could build one there. Liberty Park is also well connected to its neighborhood via bike trails, so we would put one there. I've also shown a third by the Fairgrounds so that people riding in on the Legacy bike paths/Jordan River Parkway can transfer to the Green and Black lines there.
The idea is to promote biking where people want to bike. Use the safe bike lanes and trails, but you don't need to take your bike into the crowded downtown if you don't want to. Leave your bike at a secure bike parking facility where you know your bike won't get stolen or vandalized, then hop onto a streetcar. The streetcar can take you straight to downtown and Main Street, so you won't need to deal with urban traffic.

Bicycles downtown are great - I ride all over downtown - but it's not for everyone. If we want to really get people using active transportation for commuting, we should build better transit connections between the areas where active transportation has broad appeal and where people need to go. And streetcars are the perfect connection.

I just know I will be accused of clogging up Main Street, now that in less than a page I've proposed going from 3 lines operating on Main Street to 7 (Green, Blue, Black, Orange (circulator), Davis County, and two streetcar lines), but capacity doesn't need to be an issue. With proper traffic management, this can be done. Suppose all 7 lines run at 10 minute intervals. 10 minutes divided by 7 lines means a train (or streetcar) would arrive every 85 seconds, still more than a minute between arrivals. In fact, this means there will be 42 trains per hour, which is equal to what some metro systems already run. The point is, what I'm proposing isn't unreasonable.

I prefer 9th and 9th with a transfer at Central 9th TRAX station down Indiana to redwood road.

Reasoning: heart of 9th and 9th gets rail, liberty park, more opportunities for development along the eastern stretch of the line, low income residents along Indiana get access to transit, cheaper properties along Indiana provide an opportunity to develop TOD with a strong affordable housing element, the line could be easily extended to a future inland port/expanded warehouse district to provide a mass transit commute for that workforce.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Also 6th south is served pretty well by 4th s trax, so there is a decent bit of service overlap If you put a line down 7th. Put that line down ninth and you serve 8th south well which is a maybe at best for 4th. You also serve residents south of 9th well that would be a maybe for a 7th south line.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Also also the city should pass an ordinance that says that a building may not cast a daytime shadow on Liberty Park. Beyond that the zoning around the park should be relaxed. It is a piece of ground that a lot of people want to live close to. We should not allow nimbys to suppress property values in the neighborhood.

[DanskeUtahn]

I have lived in the Netherlands and used their bike infrastructure daily, it was so easy and fun to get around. We desperately need to follow the example of the Dutch and invest in protected bike lanes in our city. We can do it easier here in Salt Lake than any other metro thanks to our wide streets and the metro is mostly flat.

It really isn't too hard to do it is essentially just a glorified sidewalk with a wall protecting it when needed, and adding in some bike traffic lights.

[UrbanDesign]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I would tend to agree with the answer on the Provo Thread. I am guessing it could be something to do with the homeless, possibly.

I don't know, there are already so many places the homeless sleep that draw less attention than a glassed in platform surrounded by people.

I could be wrong, however I feel like there must be another reason. I just hope it can get worked out and better shelters can be constructed. Especially for those late nights when you have to wait an hr for Frontrunner.

[Hatman]

For a comparison, here is the design of the Airport Line TRAX stations:


And here is the soon-to-be BRT stations in ProvOrem:

(Note that this rendering doesn't include fine details such as the lighting and the electronic message boards, etc)

They are more similar than they are different.

Both have a single wide roof held up by multiple columns placed down the center of the platform, leaving space at the platform edges for passengers to move around the station (TRAX stations with two rows of columns have some severe pinch-point problems). and both have glass partitioning down the center so that there is protection from the wind that doesn't block visibility or provide a surface for vandalism.

The BRT stations are smaller, sure, but that is because they will handle less traffic. The buses will be only 60 feet long and carry just over 100 people (standing room only), so they don't need to be as big as TRAX stations designed for 280 foot-long trains carrying 400 people. Also, most importantly, Buses are expected to run every 15 minutes at the longest, but every five minutes at peak hours, meaning that you won't be waiting at the station long enough to get uncomfortable.

I'm actually impressed that UTA is building out the stations as much as they are. Their design philosophy has been to build minimalist infrastructure as much as possible; none of their facilities, not even Salt Lake Central, has any water fountains or restrooms or anything else to make people want to hang around longer than a train or bus can come. It saves costs of building and maintenance, and it irons out political issues of giving 'more' to one city verses another. Everybody gets a bare platform, nobody gets more than what is needed.

I had thought it would be nice to place heater lights at the stations as is done at the Provo Amtrak shack or in Minneapolis:

...but we can't get everything we want. Perhaps those could be added later on. Just get the thing built first, then we can talk improvements...

[jubguy3]

Wow, those BRT stations actually look very nice. Good job UTA!

[Hatman]

Walking around downtown on Saturday, I decided to time how long the signal phases are on Main Street, to see if a train frequency of 87 seconds is even feasible (this is how I relax in my time off). I assumed that the busiest streets to cross Main Street - and therefore the ones that would be the most congested, would be 5th and 6th south. On main street, these two streets got a green light for just over 1 minute, and the entire signal cycle lasted 2 minutes (start of green to start of green). So 1 train every 87 seconds would not work, at least not with how the signal is currently timed.

So then I went over to State Street, a busy north-south street. How long did 5th and 6th South get for green at those intersections? 40 seconds. State Street got a full minute of green time, so overall the signal cycle was about 1 min. 50 seconds long.
My analysis: The lights along Main Street could definitely be re-timed to allow for a train frequency of 87 seconds, with very minor negative effects - if any. If State Street can give only 40 seconds of green time, Main Street (only one block farther east) could certainly do it as well. What the current timing says to me is that State Street is the capacity constraint, and Main Street is not - the timing on Main Street is simply to 'synchronize' the light timing so as to avoid multiple stops by motorists. If Main Street starts to fill up to its capacity (in terms of trains and transit), then the timing can be adjusted for it too, and cars will just have to stop twice. Too bad for them.
I could be totally wrong about this, and I'm sure i-215 can/will set me straight if I am. But for now my dream is not dead!

If signal timing isn't your thing, here is a video I liked about SLC's old streetcar network: (Skip to 0:55 to skip the pre-video banter this channel likes to include)
• Video Link