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  #41  
Old Posted May 12, 2007, 12:03 AM
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well... it's always easier to say what you don't like... sort like saying shit smells bad and then thinking you're a smart person for having such a poignant opinion on the smell of shit.

Sometimes I wounder why people torture themselves to "stupidity and ignorance" and keep reading the postings of the subforum clown-gang? If pie in the sky postings isn't your thang, don't follow the bouncing ball to SSP.
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  #42  
Old Posted May 12, 2007, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
^you and a few other LA folk represent a subforum clown-gang the likes of which have not been seen since DoubleL and co. posted on these boards
And don't think i'm negative just because i consistently oppose the stupidity and ignorance rampant in much of the LA subforum. i'm only negative to those who make idiotic statements.

and it's idiotic to ascribe LA's lack of an urbanness to downtown's lack of "uber-lux", when it's plain to see that the fundamental problem is LA's built env't and pathetic mass trans network. and London/NY are financial centers because they are home to the largest bourses in the world - not because some yuppie such as yourself decided to declare their preferred ghetto ripe for another coffee bean and tea leaf. you should also already know by now that ceo's don't have the power to move company HQ's wherever they please, especially in LA where it's generally cost-prohibitive relative to suburbs. that you overlook such common sense illustrates your image-obsessed shallowness- the kind of shallowness San Franciscans and New Yorkers label LA with (and which I now grudglingly agree LA sometimes deserves). instead, you'll continue obsessing over the notion that presenting a pseudo-downtown so that a few like-minded suburbanites can overpay to live in a 5 sq mile bubble and pretend that they live in a real city equates to "having gotten there".

but hey man, if you want I'll sell you my mom's 1500sf shithole for 4million so that you can say you're a badass, and put LA and London in the same sentence. stay positive!

Last time I checked, I was an active and vocal proponent of expanding mass transit in LA. The build environment? Yeah sure we're car-oriented, and to you, we'll never transition into a more pedestrian-friendly environment. You might as well give up and move to New York City. And companies aren't merely stationed on the Westside by chance because it isn't "cost-prohibitive" like how you THINK. Downtown LA offers very competitive leasing rates compared to the Westside, but the lack of amenities and lack of luxury housing (yes, luxury, not pseudo-luxury) prevent Downtown LA from attracting more companies because top execs do have say where the company goes. But as we've seen in the few months, many law firms and other companies are finally starting to make the move downtown because they sense this will be a place where "things are gonna happen." - i.e, your favorite LA Live and Grand Ave Project.

Look, you're a pretty negative guy by default. I'm not sure what you're like in real life, but it's pretty annoying having to constantly read your bullshit diatribes (why I continue to read your posts is beyond me, perhaps I am stupid for that very reason). Go out and smell the "fresh" air and get some sunshine dude! And change the way you look at things perhaps. Someone once said "If you love your city, your city will love you back."
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  #43  
Old Posted May 18, 2007, 10:18 AM
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Thumbs up City Unveils $125 Million Civic Overhaul

May 3, 2007 – Ryan Gierach



West Hollywood’s City Hall. Photo by Ryan Gierach.


He has been talking about it, hinting at its imminent arrival without bandying about figures and costs and scope, but Paul Arevalo has not been ready to announce his plans for his Make Over of the City of West Hollywood - until now.

West Hollywood’s City Manager plans no less than $125 million in expenditures over the next ten years to create over 650 parking spaces in three strategically located structures, a world-class library/community center, scores of thousands of sq ft of greenspace in our parks and a state of the art creative arts center featuring 200-seat retractable auditorium seating and a 99-seat black box theater.

Worried taxpayers take heart. “We can do this, all $125 million, without raising a single dime in new taxes,” Mr. Arevalo assured with justifiable pride in his fiscal stewardship of the town’s coffers.

Paul Arevalo told WeHoNews in an exclusive interview that the city had grown up and should act like it. “The city is maturing as an institution. In our adolescence we fought all forms of bureaucracy just to fight it. For example, we went to a paperless office at one point; we learned that going paperless meant going unaccountable, so we went back,” he said.



It can only be said that the city’s parks are barely adequate. Photo by Ryan Gierach.


“West Hollywood, for all the attention it gets from around the world, for all its importance to people around the world, has no world-class civic facility to boast of,” he said. “For our 25th anniversary as a city we’ll celebrate by breaking ground on a series of public facilities improvements that will give us those world-class community facilities.”

His pride is justified by the results of his and his financial team’s deft touch on budget issues. According to the City’s web site, Moody’s Investors Service gives the City a credit rating of Aaa for the debt issued, and the City has never defaulted on any payments.

In addition, the City’s financial team racks up award after award, including, most recently, its 13th-straight National Distinguished Budget Presentation Award.

Mr. Arevalo says, “We are fortunate to live in an affluent community where people are willing to step up to the plate and pay for services the residents need. That means we can do all of these projects just from the revenue we expect to come in from our current tax structure and capital fundraising campaigns.”

The big news, which merchants, restaurants and residents alike will greet with huzzahs and halleluiahs, is parking, lots of it. The plans, taken together, call for the addition of over 650 new hard parking spaces (that number expand several times when valets “stack” cars at night, according to Oscar Delgado, the City’s head of Parking) in three locations – at West Hollywood Park abutting the new library, topped off by tennis courts (333 new spots), at the City Hall expansion lot (132 net spots) and at Plummer Park, where ingenious placement of the parking underground expands that lot from approximately 80 to 180 parking spots.



A shot of the very successful Kings Road Parking lot in Mid Town WeHo. Photo by Ryan Gierach.


Because each of the lots will be accessible to the public, and at least one of the lots will be leased to valets at night, “the parking will begin to pay for itself almost immediately,” said Mr. Arevalo.

Oscar Delgado explained the approach being taken at the City Hall expansion lot. “At City Hall we’ll net 132 spaces by going up another floor of parking,” he said. “We’ll make it available to people in the neighborhood for overnight parking. It’ll be open to the public during the daytime; we’ll charge a nominal fee like we do at Kings Road.”

He also said that visitors to City Hall would be given validations for city hall business, making their parking there both easier and free. He also sung the praises of the design and its affects, or lack of them, on the immediate neighborhood. “The nice thing about it is the structure will be enclosed on three sides with the new one-stop community service center’s offices on the top floor, so it’ll be quiet,” he said.

As for how to develop a revenue stream from the extra 130 spaces, he said, “We toyed with the idea of putting valet parking there at night, but our meeting schedule goes into the night, it kind of precludes that. We might still do it, though,” he acceded.

Saying that “Planning events at Plummer Park has always been problematic because of a lack of parking,” Mr. Delgado segued the conversation over to Sam Baxter, head of facilities and maintenance for the city, who gave the presentation on Plummer Park, which included the most innovative solution to the city’s parking crunch – build it underneath the park.



Plummer Park’s entrance. Photo by Ryan Gierach.


“We’re going subterranean, moving it underground,” he said showing the preliminary drawings. “We’re planning on building about 180 spaces [to replace the 80 there are now] in one level underground. It will extend underneath the park some ways, up to where Fiesta Hall stands.”

He explained that the park designers could “pick up about 30,000 sq ft of green space that way,” he said, “and although this plan will be expensive, we can’t buy 30,ooo sq ft of green space anywhere in the city for any price.”

According to the team, this parking will serve the surrounding neighborhood, commercial, entertainment facilities and the offices that are there now or are being built soon. To do this, he said, “We’re keeping the entrance on Santa Monica Boulevard [at the mouth of Martel].

As the plans exist now, the parking will extend to underneath Fiesta Hall, where there will be an elevator and car drop off; there will also be an elevator placed at the Community Center/Tiny Tots Building and Play area behind the Center.

The most excitement, though, seemed reserved for what the team is calling a “creative arts center” at a renovated Fiesta Hall that will include a state of the art flat floor room for public meeting use, a retractable seat auditorium for 200 and a 99-seat black box theater.



West Hollywood Park. Photo by Ryan Gierach.


City Manager Arevalo said, “We’ve heard the need for a performance facility from the community, and we’ve developed a way to do it inside Fiesta Hall. We’ll have a multi-use, state-of-the-art black box stage and a performance stage for over 200 when we’re done with it all.”

Sam Baxter chimed in with details. “At Fiesta Hall we’re creating a multi-purpose creative art center to give maximum flexibility of the open space inside the hall. We’ll take it down to the shell, leaving the outside intact.”

Inside, he promised, things will look much different than they do now. “We’ll build a space that serves as a flat floor public meeting space for assemblies where we can set up tables and chairs,” he said. “We’ll also build a 150-200 retractable fixed seat theater. Those seats will be auditorium-style seating like they use in theaters now, just that they will retract and can be stored away.

That opens the possibility of creating yet another valuable performing space – a black box theater. “Since they are retractable,” he said, “they give us the ability to add a 99-seat black box theater to it. Of course, there will be all new lighting, acoustics, sound, etc. for that. It’ll be up to the minute.”

The overall plan for Plummer Park, he went on to describe, “is to move the hardscape, all the buildings and the play areas, from the center of the park,” he said, “to its outskirts. That gains us greenspace. Just demolishing the halls in the center of the park will create 14,000 sq ft of greenspace.”



The current West Hollywood Public Library. Photo by Ryan Gierach.


A valuable community resource, the Russian Language Library, will be moved out of its location there by the renovation, but Mr. Arevalo said, “We’ve been working with the Russian language library to find a place to relocate them; eventually, they’ll be in the library in the Russian Collection room.”

He stressed that the library was not a library alone, but that the structure would enhance facets of community life that cannot be easily discounted. He said, “The library will serve three main functions, as enhanced community meeting space and a respectable place to hold City Council meetings, of course as a library, but also as a holding for our West Hollywood History, Russian Language and LGBT collections. And the Friends of The Library will have office and retail space right at the front door,” he hastily added.

Turning attention to the City Hall project, Sam Baxter explained that there would be an 18,000 sq ft added to the parking rooftop in the form of a full community service center. “Call it a one stop shop for all your city needs,” he said. “Right now permits are on the second floor, so when you’re done up there you have to come downstairs to pay the cashier at the City Clerk. It takes a lot of ups and downs in our elevator to get anything done now.

“We’ll be placing all the ‘connected’ service counters in the front of the house so they will be in one place. You can get your parking needs, your permit needs, planning needs, everything you’ll need from the city, taken care of all in one place,” he said. “The support staff for those things will be in the ‘back of the house’ to come out and handle things.”

He said that expansion would relieve pressure inside the city hall offices now. “This will solve the space problems we have now in City Hall,” Mr. Baxter said. “With the community service center support staff leaving our current offices for the service center, we’ll be able to add essential conference rooms that we don’t have now and add some elbow room for the staff who are now in cubicles.”



An artist’s conception of the planned library for West Hollywood. Photo by Ryan Gierach.


Paul Arevalo added, “It’ll be open on Friday lights [the every other Fri. that City Hall closes except for a few services], too, so for departments like planning and special events, film permits and the like, it will expand hours and access by the public.”

The question hanging over the revelations of these multiple municipal masterpieces, despite the assurances it will cost the residents or businesses nothing more than they already pay in taxes, remains ‘How to pay for it all?’

Paul Arevalo said, “We have set up a portfolio to do this that includes a Capital Fundraising campaign for the library. We’ll be aggressively seeking grants for the various projects like historic preservation money for the renovation and transformation of Fiesta Hall. State funding for the library is still a possibility down the road.”

But those funds only scratch the surface of a $150 million note. Still, he and his crack finance team have a solid enough sounding plan. “I’m going to council with a proposal to carve off all the Transient and Occupancy Tax (TOT) from the three new hotels [two in the Sunset Millenium development and the James Hotel] coming online on the Sunset Strip in the next couple years to pledge toward this.”

In case anyone might wonder if that would be enough, he offered, “We project nearly $6 million a year in TOT from the three new hotels being built on the Strip. That can be leveraged into $25-30 million in debt capacity.” That makes a healthy start.



Another view of the proposed West Hollywood Library. Photo by Ryan Gierach.

He pointed out that the library fundraising had not yet started, and could be expected to do well. The Capital Campaign for the library will net $10 million easily,” he said. Add to that the fact that the city is in prime financial condition, “West Hollywood has built itself a $50 million reserve, up from $4 million 17 years ago when I came aboard,” he said.

“We’ve got a unique economic formula incomparable to any jurisdiction in the country,” Mr. Arevalo said, “and it’s fun to make the most of it and be able to use it to build a better quality of life for the residents, especially without having to ask them to pay for it.

“Look at the constituencies that will be served by these improvements,” he said. “Our main focus is to create as much green space as we can. By transforming an acre and a half into five acres at West Hollywood Park and increasing green space in Plummer Park we benefit the entire city. And businesses will benefit from all the parking capacity we’re adding; it’ll mean more economic activity all around.”

The plan will be formally unveiled at its first commission hearing on May 9th at the Public Facilities Commission meeting taking place at 7:30 p.m. at the City Hall Community Conference Room, 8300 Santa Monica Boulevard.

Mr. Arevalo said, “Our first step is to set the plan before council for their approval and get the funding put into place. After that, groundbreaking could begin in 2009.”

He promised that the construction of the projects would not last long. “We’ll do it all at once; I’d rather have six months of pain than six years of agony,” he said. “And with construction costs going up daily we need to act fast and quickly to keep a lid on things.”
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2007, 5:46 AM
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Downtown Riverside

I was in DT Riverside today, and drove by the construction site of the proposed 10-story office building. Didn’t see any movement at the site, but there is a fence and a fairly deep hole has been dug.

Is this building still moving forward?
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2007, 8:56 AM
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The Getty

The Getty Center at 10: Still aloof, yet totally L.A.


Robbin Goddard / Los Angeles Times

SPRAWLING SITE: Richard Meier's design for the Getty Center in Brentwood distributes more than 900,000 square feet of interior space among six separate buildings.

Design questions raised at the center's birth on a hilltop remain relevant as its relationship with the city evolves.
By Christopher Hawthorne, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
December 16, 2007

During much of the 1990s, as the Getty Center was rising on its Brentwood hilltop, a couple of stubborn questions dogged the hugely ambitious project: Would Richard Meier's design ever have anything meaningful to do with, or say about, the cityover which it loomed? Or would it exist as an expensive import, a vast collection of smooth enamel and rough travertine conjured up by a New York architect who looked west for commissions but east, to Europe and its Modernist past, for inspiration?

This weekend, as the $1.2-billion complex celebrates its 10th anniversary, those questions seem as relevant as ever.

In part that's because the answers keep changing. When Meier's design proposal was unveiled, the Getty was widely seen as an anomaly in Los Angeles, an effort to lend instant, old-fashioned respectability to an institution that craved it. Then, after it opened Dec. 16, 1997, the Getty surprised usby fitting in. And in the last couple of years it has begun to look like an anomaly all over again, though for a fresh set of reasons.

Looking back at the museum's changing reputation offers more than the chance to see how the relationships between a city and its most significant landmarks change over time. It also helps explain the various shifts -- many of them profound -- that have redefined the field of architecture, and the city of Los Angeles, over the last 10 years.

Architecture's leading figures have become global brand names, courted by commercial, governmental and cultural clients alike. L.A., for its part, has grown more vertical and noticeably denser -- and less white by the day. It takes most of its external cultural cues these days not from Europe or New York but from Latin America and Asia.

That's not to say we have given up entirely on the idea that some Old World glamour can save or redeem us. The biggest local museum commission since the Getty, the expansion and reconfiguration of the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, went to Renzo Piano, 70, a talented and genteel architect who splits his time between Paris and Genoa, Italy. But the next music director of the L.A. Philharmonic, Gustavo Dudamel, is a 26-year-old from Venezuela. The new dean of the architecture department at USC is Qingyun Ma, a Shanghai architect who just turned 42. His counterpart at UCLA, 45-year-old Hitoshi Abe, arrived here in April from Sendai, Japan.

Though the Getty was a force for architectural and civic change, both as a model to follow and to react against, it was far from the only one. Frank Gehry's Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, Spain, among the most catalytic designs in architectural history, also opened in the fall of 1997 -- a triumph that helped get Gehry's stalled Walt Disney Concert Hall back on the track to completion.

Still, there is no question that the Getty Center permanently altered the way we think about new high-profile buildings here. The thumbnail version of its influence goes like this: The ways in which the complex successfully took advantage of L.A.'s climate, landscape and culture are worth copying; the ways in which it remained separate from the city, physically and symbolically, or tried to impose an inflexible approach to architecture better suited to Manhattan or Bauhaus-era Germany are worth avoiding.

Ultimately, however, exploring the question of the Getty's connection to Los Angeles raises another: In a global city as wildly diverse and prone to amnesia as this one, how do we define what fidelity to local context, to the spirit of a place, even means?



A curious choice

In 1984, Harold M. Williams, president of the Getty Trust, announced that the architect for its ambitious new headquarters, on 110 acres just west of the San Diego Freeway, would be Richard Meier, then 49. The choice was curious: To design a museum on a site detached and aloof from the quickly changing city below it, the Getty picked an architect whose work -- and whole professional persona, for that matter -- was often detached and aloof as well.

By sticking to an orthodox version of Modernism in an era of Disneyland eclecticism, Meier, throughout the 1970s and '80s, had at least won points for consistency and rigor. But his chiseled designs, seemingly allergic to color and humor in equal measure, appeared to exist in a vacuum, without any of the sense of social mission that had driven the European architects who inspired him. The purest examples of his work were exercises less in Modernism than in antisepticism.

A funny thing happened, though, after the complex opened: It seemed more relaxed and more comfortable in its spectacular setting than we might have guessed. Maybe it was all that travertine, which softened the edges of the architect's machine-like style. Maybe it was the way the center itself sprawled across its huge site. Or maybe Los Angeles culture seeped into the design because Meier -- and Michael Palladino, the architect who relocated here from New York in 1986 to run the project for Meier and never left -- spent so much time in the city as the project moved through more than a decade of gestation.

People got used to the idea, so alien at first, of leaving their cars at the bottom of the hill and taking a sleek tram to the museum at the top. Even Thierry Despont's galleries, lined with fabric panels in rich colors, didn't seem so fussy or aggressively handsome after a while.

The way Meier chose to break up the design, distributing more than 900,000 square feet of interior space among six separate buildings, some holding art and others a library and the Getty's various research arms, did reinforce the idea of the museum as campus -- corporate or collegiate, take your pick -- and as a rather sterile, self-contained world floating above the city. But it had the practical effect of creating a whole series of plazas between and around those distinct blocks of space, nearly every one providing a spot for a bench or a fountain or a remarkable view.

And if the central courtyard, with its 120-foot-long fountain edged by Mexican cypress trees, seemed like a quad -- a nostalgic reference not just to classical architecture but also to the idea of being sequestered in a safe, self-contained place of higher learning -- well, most of us enjoyed it all the more for that.

The design seemed reflective of Los Angeles architecture in another, almost paradoxical way. If the whole idea of L.A. art and architecture was to ignore the idea of fitting in, to reject slavish conformism, then wasn't the Getty a supreme example of precisely that attitude? Turning its back on the notion that it needed to match the spirit of Los Angeles in some prescribed way -- didn't that make it somehow truer to the city than a row of palm trees or a red-tile roof?

Perhaps more to the point, the Getty joined a long line of L.A. landmarks that sit at a dramatic remove from the city around them -- most notably Griffith Observatory and Dodger Stadium and houses by John Lautner, Pierre Koenig, Frank Lloyd Wright, Charles and Ray Eames, and many others.



Different mission

In recent years, the role the Getty Center plays in the city's imagination has shifted once more. It hardly ranks as L.A.'s final stand-alone icon: Gehry's Disney Hall, which opened in 2003, and Thom Mayne's 2004 Caltrans building -- to pick two examples downtown -- proudly continued that tradition.

But in the last three or four years, we have embarked on a kind of high-profile architecture here that requires very different skills from those Meier displayed at the Getty. Instead of building new landmarks from scratch, architects are being asked to extend, restore or otherwise re-imagine existing ones.

The list of such designs includes recent expansions of the Getty Villa (2005) and Griffith Observatory (2006), along with plans for a third building by Cesar Pelli at the Pacific Design Center and Gehry's work on the mixed-use project soon to rise across from Disney Hall. Call it infill with an L.A. twist.

Few L.A. architects have the luxury now of dropping a prominent building onto a wide-open plot of land, let alone a billion-dollar collection of buildings onto a virgin hilltop. And as those changes accelerate, the magisterial and isolated Getty, created whole, begins to appear anomalous all over again.

Of course, this tension between standing apart from the city and in the midst of it, between indigenous and imported culture, has always been a defining feature -- maybe the defining feature -- of L.A. culture. Reviewing "The Long Embrace," Judith Freedman's new book about Raymond Chandler, in the New York Review of Books, Pico Iyer notes that Chandler, who was brought up in England and moved here in his mid-20s, "got hold of L.A. partly by always remaining at a distance from it."

"The sound that Chandler made his own was a mix of incantatory lyrical poetry and the rude vernacular of people who mocked all that such poetry traditionally described," Iyer writes.

The way the Getty has settled into the Los Angeles landscape over the last decade is a product of the same dynamic. The best sense of where the city stands, 10 years on, is to be found not just in the detached, Olympian architecture of the Getty itself or in the restless, organic local culture it seems to oppose, but in the relationship -- thoroughly intertwined by now -- between the two.

christopher.hawthorne@la times.com

Hawthorne is The Times' architecture critic






And throwing this out for thought. Ten years ago, the thought of placing the museum downtown would have made Getty shudder in his grave. Today, maybe not. And wouldn’t it now give so much to downtown at a time when downtown has something to give back???
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  #46  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2007, 1:29 PM
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i wish west hollywood was the seat of LA's government.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2007, 10:23 PM
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Don't worry, the gays are still secretly controlling and governing all of us regardless. In fact..they're all over this board! Wow!
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2007, 5:09 AM
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One Broadway Plaza, the building that was the center of an expensive and bitter campaign to get it built. The building that was to be, by far, the tallest building in Orange County at ~500ft. Well, it appears to be dead. There has been no site activity whatsoever for 18+ months now. The same half house still sits in the middle of the same fenced off lot. I went by there yesterday. The OC office market is still very strong. I don't know what happened in this case, but this thing appears to be going nowhere.

Even the press release on the website promises a Jan '07 start. The last news on this project was added in March '07.
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2007, 9:59 AM
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i wish west hollywood was the seat of LA's government.
Why
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2007, 10:25 PM
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....... and put LA and London in the same sentence. stay positive!
I understand your point edluva, but I must point out that LA surpassed London's economy decades ago. London provides the liquid and cities such as LA provide the goods and services. Even if many are blue collar, GDP is GDP. London does achieves economic success in a sexier way, but you can't refute raw dollars!

LA doesn;t compare to London culturally, but LA is very much in the same sentence as London when it comes to GDP.

Now GDP/capita, income/capita, etc. is a different animal altogether.
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Old Posted Dec 19, 2007, 9:34 AM
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I understand your point edluva, but I must point out that LA surpassed London's economy decades ago. London provides the liquid and cities such as LA provide the goods and services. Even if many are blue collar, GDP is GDP. London does achieves economic success in a sexier way, but you can't refute raw dollars!

LA doesn;t compare to London culturally, but LA is very much in the same sentence as London when it comes to GDP.

Now GDP/capita, income/capita, etc. is a different animal altogether.
i disagree. how can you compare the state of georgia with nyc and say that georgia's economy exerts its proportionate dollar-for-dollar influence over the global economy as nyc does based on both having similar gdp's? likewise with la vs london. i'm not concerned with "sexiness" here, i'm just sayin' an economy based on millions of local small-businesses exerts far less influence on global economics than one based on millions of financial managers - even if their combined incomes were equa (in which case la and ny are still not)
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Old Posted Dec 20, 2007, 1:20 AM
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i disagree. how can you compare the state of georgia with nyc and say that georgia's economy exerts its proportionate dollar-for-dollar influence over the global economy as nyc does based on both having similar gdp's? likewise with la vs london. i'm not concerned with "sexiness" here, i'm just sayin' an economy based on millions of local small-businesses exerts far less influence on global economics than one based on millions of financial managers - even if their combined incomes were equa (in which case la and ny are still not)
Actually there is a global connectivity index that measures precisely what you are looking for. You are correct, LA falls from third in the world, to fifth, behind london.

That news isnt meant to upset you. It is what it is. LA looks ugly, but its massive ports, airport, international business sector, defense, technology, and media industries are more powerful than our 1 story buildings convey. It is very odd, but alas, very true.
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Old Posted Dec 20, 2007, 7:56 AM
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Actually there is a global connectivity index that measures precisely what you are looking for. You are correct, LA falls from third in the world, to fifth, behind london.

That news isnt meant to upset you. It is what it is. LA looks ugly, but its massive ports, airport, international business sector, defense, technology, and media industries are more powerful than our 1 story buildings convey. It is very odd, but alas, very true.
i'm talking about economics, not a scholarly attempt at quantifying an abstract concept such as "global connectivity". I don't need pointyheaded intellectuals to tell me LA has an enormous cultural influence on the world.

by the way, tell me what exactly is this "international business sector"...people here love to throw around phrases without really deciding for themselves whether they're valid. I'm not doubting you perse, just being a healthy skeptic.
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  #54  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2007, 12:00 AM
jlrobe jlrobe is offline
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i'm talking about economics, not a scholarly attempt at quantifying an abstract concept such as "global connectivity". I don't need pointyheaded intellectuals to tell me LA has an enormous cultural influence on the world.

by the way, tell me what exactly is this "international business sector"...people here love to throw around phrases without really deciding for themselves whether they're valid. I'm not doubting you perse, just being a healthy skeptic.
Global connectivity is 70% economic based, at least according to the university who defined the metric in the first place. I might have to scrounge up my old magazines to cite it formally. One could easily do bayesian to infer that LA still won't drop that far if the metric were to be converted from global connectivity to a purely economic basis. To be honest, I really don't care that much.

Global financial centers are nice, but not the end all be all in the world's economy. There are several degrees of nodes. Of course Tokyo, Hong Kong, London, and NYC are big finance nodes. Eveyone knows that. LA is not a finance node. Everyone knows that as well. If you feel that finance nodes are the only game in town, then I guess London is more important. Actually, even though NYC and Tokyo have double/triple the GDP of London, they would actually be surpassed by London in terms IPOs and credit transactions per day. Same with Hong Kong as far as raw money switching hands. How do we truly measure which one is more important? Would you say London is more important than NYC because of trade volume, or would you weigh GDP? If you consider GDP, do you do it per capita, or total? If you do use GDP/capita, then would you say Coppenhagen is more important than Tokyo?

The same can be said about the fortune 500 stat. Does the number of F-500 companies make a city more economically significant? If so, then would Atlanta be one of the most dominant economic cities in the US? Many fortune 500 companies are BASED there due to taxes, but 70% of their GDP occurs elsewhere.

The truth is there is no real single measure. It could be global connectivity, GDP, GDP/capita, exports, imports, fortune 500 companies, etc. etc. In fact, tracking global dollars or global importance is a non-trivial task.

As for international business, look it up in the california department of finance or the LA business journal, or the department of commerce and tourism. They itemize everything in there. I read a lot, but I dont make a point to scan the pages and put them in a file if one day someone asks me for a citation, so I am sorry for the lack of references to support my claims. Needless to say, in all the reports I read, LA is always near the top of the list in terms of important economic centers, and importance overall. Every list has a different metric, and a different point to make, but every list tends to put LA 2nd or 3rd in the US and top 10 in the world. I am suprised you haven't noticed any of these lists. If EVERY list tends to hold LA favorably, are you implying that every list uses the wrong metric and that you have the TRUE metric that will prove LA is once and for all insignificant. Better yet, can you produce ANY list, where LA is not in the top 15 as far as overall global importance or economic output.

You can claim LA isnt economically important becasue
1) it doesnt have enough skyscrapers
2) it doesnt have enough fortune 500 companies
3) It doesnt have enough transit
4) it is too spread out for it to matter
5) it isnt important beyond its borders
6) Or any other excuse you have

But in the end, it doesnt matter how you try and spin it, LA is an economic power. List after list after list claims that. If you REALLY don't want to believe it, then maybe YOU should go out and prove everyone else wrong.

Now that being said, I dont CARE if LA is economically powerful. It doesnt make LA anymore livable in my opinion, and livability (and urbaness) is what we all care about the most.

Using LA's economic data to prove it is a better town than Chicago, holds no water. Claiming LA is wonderful and stating economic data is a fallacy.

Now, I think your MO is to prove LA is severly flawed and could benefit from some serious political reform and improved urban policies. Well, EVERYONE on this board agrees with you. Yes, many of us get happy about buildings, and state positive things about LA. We should! Just because I want LA to build 3 subways and rewrite all of their laws, doesn't mean I shouldnt be happy for every little bit of progress we make. Some people, whom you bash for being blindly optimistic, are actually BUSY going to policy meetings and doing their part to make LA a better place. They are optimistic, but also realize LA has a ways to go. To be honest, if I had to choose between someone who was overly optimistic and proud of his/her city (many on this forum) or someone who was a pessimistic "so called realist/healthy skeptic" that refused to lift a finger to improve their city, I would choose the former.

You have a wealth of knowledge, but to be honest, many times, you don't contribute much to a discussion. You use your knowledge to belittle people instead of enriching the discussion at hand, which you could easily do on many occasions. You and I are in agreement many times, but your ridiculous negative spin and apathy just taints everything. I would love to debate LA's economy with you, not because I am a booster, but because I think you could bring up interesting ideas that would make me think. However, In reality, this wouldn't be very fun at all because you would spend all of your energy trying to prove that LA sucks, instead of making for a lively discussion. So in the end, what's the point!?

Last edited by jlrobe; Dec 21, 2007 at 12:13 AM.
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  #55  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2007, 12:38 AM
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  #56  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2007, 12:55 AM
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Just one thing I'd like to say to you jlrobe...

LA's Fortune 500 companies are scattered throughout the metro area. Those companies choose to locate themselves in Burbank, El Segundo, and Beverly Hills not because of Burbank, El Segundo, and Beverly Hills. They wish to remain in close proximity to LA, all the while evading its corporate tax burdens. Looking at the MSA, or better yet the CSA, is a better indication of LA's corporate presence.

The top five CSAs in terms of number of Fortune 500 companies:

1) New York (53)
2) Chicago (30)
3) San Francisco (27)
4) Dallas (24)
5) Houston (23)

6) Los Angeles (22)
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  #57  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2007, 1:14 AM
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If edluva next starts arguing that the earth is flat, are we going to spend time trying to refute that one too? It's best to just humor his posts when they're so entertaining, especially as they come across so classically classist. Right, LA is filled with so many ugly, unskilled Mexicali workers, instead of men in white collar suits. We're economically non-existent, our industries are insignificant and illegitimate. We should all get out of our cars as in the REM video for "Everybody Hurts" when we're stuck in rush-hour, and start hugging each other and crying, bemoaning our non-economic fate. If one idiosyncratic poster on an irrelevant message board repeats it ad nauseam, it must be true!
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  #58  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2007, 8:42 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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whatever. i'd like just one of you guys to make a compelling argument as to how exactly LA's economy influences the global economy in a way proportionate or reflective of its GDP, or in a way proportionate and reflective of your claims. That was the initial assertion that brought about this argumetn wasn't it?

you guys can character-assasinate all you like - but i've yet to hear you talk the talk. Not even you, vangelist. All you offer is sarcastic imitation and labelling. you've made absolutely no substantive remarks to date, and attempt to hide your dearth of ideas by pedantically citing a few esoteric cinematic references which probably reflect some intro-class you took at USC in hopes of impressing us to submission. there's a word for that. it's called sophism. and it's pretty easy to see through. btw, noone is bemoaning the economic fate of la but you. I'm only stating what's true. it's up to you to put an existential bent to it, and it's obvious to me how important economic might (or lack thereof) is to you. hopefully bricky can come in and bail you out again.

jlrobe- i don't frame the idea la is economically less important for any one of those points you cite. i'm glad you read the LABJ and you're capable of citing someone else's statement. re: your statement about atlanta - yeah, I am saying exactly that. that a case can be made of atlanta's relative influence on global economics based on the decisions that ultimately go down in corporate boardrooms. I'm not saying we should base the above on F500's alone though. What I am saying is I'd give more credence to that than the agglomerated GMP of 18million people, because we could just as easily agglomerate the GDP of a similarly populated region, such as the dirty south. so until you discredit my criticism of this GMP metric earlier, I'll continue to make the point. Same goes for sakia sassen's methodology - it never was her aim to summarize the influence of a metro's economy...but rather it's connectivity. and even then, you forgot to account for political and legal parts of her assesment. it's not just econ and culture.

anyways, tell me how la influences the world financially, without mindlessly quoting some chamber of commerce paraphrenelia you obviously don't even put the effort towards understanding yourself. i can do that too, but it would be way too easy.

p.s. westsidelife

Last edited by edluva; Dec 21, 2007 at 8:58 AM.
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  #59  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2007, 11:13 AM
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Global financial centers are nice, but not the end all be all in the world's economy.
When billions of people all over the world jump-start their televisions tonight, they may come across a little L. A. based product of some sort. When the TEU's are loaded in Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Tokyo tonight, they probably will find their way past Angel's Gate. When California insists on curbing emissions and 16 other states ride those coat tails, do you consider that influential thinking? More than half the population of the country riding on a bid that has its origins where? Where are people influenced in their daily lives but more importantly, how are they influenced? How do they achieve the most effective shift in their paradigm? Would that be economically, culturally or spiritually? I would agree with jlrobe in his assertion that financial manipulations aren't the be all or end all of civilization. Let me put this out there in the form of groundskeeping. Financial decisions are like feeding, watering and aerating your lawn; needs to be done. The cultural analogy would be,- what to plant and where to plant it to its greatest effect concerning the parameters of your property and area's weather variables. The spiritual or religious analogy would be the trim and maintenance of the property, the trees and shrubs and flowers and the overall personality in form they attain from you over time. L. A.'s lawn isn't the largest, but its grounds are among the most diversified and unique in the world. The largest variety of faiths practiced in the world, and containing by far the most powerful cultural influence developed to date. Cities aren't just money machines, they are people adding to their lives as well as the lives around them. L. A. does alright. What's funny, jlrobe, is that I wouldn't have found your wicked post, unless I was searching for edluva's next beam of sunshine!
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  #60  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2007, 11:19 AM
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milquetoast milquetoast is offline
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L. A.'s also the city that got New York to stop smoking, maybe that will spread to China?
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