AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[BG918]

So what is the latest with Austin's light rail/streetcar plans? Will there be another vote in the near future? I may have a job opportunity there and am curious about future developments.

[BevoLJ]

I believe that will be in the nov elections

[electricron]

Originally Posted by BG918

So what is the latest with Austin's light rail/streetcar plans? Will there be another vote in the near future? I may have a job opportunity there and am curious about future developments.

Search using Urban Rail vs Streetcar. Here's the latest presentation.
http://www.austinstrategicmobility.c...ing_111102.pdf

They still haven't decided what to include or where to build first. That's got to be decided before asking voters for approval. I'm still trying to figure out why getting to Mueller is so important? It's not like it's the only neighborhood in Austin.
I suggest they do some research and discover which bus lines attract the most riders and build the first streetcar line there.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by BG918

So what is the latest with Austin's light rail/streetcar plans? Will there be another vote in the near future? I may have a job opportunity there and am curious about future developments.

If having a viable mass transit system is a deciding factor on moving here you might want to stay put. Fortunately, Austin has enough other attributes to keep the masses moving here.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by Hill Country

If having a viable mass transit system is a deciding factor on moving here you might want to stay put. Fortunately, Austin has enough other attributes to keep the masses moving here.

Not a deciding factor but I would be interested to know what the initial plan is going to be, and where it will be located. Is the feeling that the "starter" light rail line will be from ABIA west along Riverside to downtown and then UT, and which route through downtown/UT is what is still undecided?

I'm familiar with the city and understand why Congress would be a logical choice for the train heading north from Riverside because it could eventually be extended south on Congress. I also see the side wanting a new bridge and for the train to head north on Trinity/south on San Jacinto then west on 4th then north on the Lavaca/Guadalupe couplet then east on MLK then north on Red River.

[BevoLJ]

I don't think they are using Congress. At least not in the first few phases.

If I remember right the first part is Downtown and the bridge. The most important part is there is only one place they can put the maintenance shed and that is south of the river. So they are doing that, the bridge, through DT and UT first. That is the first part. After that is done they get a ton of Federal money and they do the part to the airport. Then the part from UT to Hancock.

The first part DT, I don't think they are planning on using Congress at all. It is far to busy as I understand. They are going to cross the river and land, and use, Trinity up past the front of the Convention Center and where the Metro Rail currently is at 4th. Then go along 4th down to Lavaca and Guadalupe which are each one way. Lavaca will go north and Guadalupe south. Those are also better because Congress ends at the Capitol so is kinda in the way when going to UT, which isn't an issue with Lavaca and Guad. Anyway, then they hit 17th and 18th which are also one way. South line uses 18th going west, and then down Guad to 4th. While the north line goes up Lavaca to 17th east. San Jacinto it is what is used at UT. The south line goes from SJ to 18th and on, while the north line goes 17th to SJ up into UT, near the tennis courts near the Frank Erwin Center and up to the football stadium and so on to Dean Keeton.

Anyway, that is how I think it is planned. There is a lot of talk about trying to get it on Speedway through UT, but there were issues with how it would effect on going research. Considering the new Computer School that Bill Gates is building is on right by the Stadium and this line as it currently is would go right by it, I would imagine it would still have heavy effects on research. Although they are looking at using some fancy types of Streetcars that can go for a mile or two with no overhead lines to power them, and recharges when it gets back under the lines down the road. So that could be helpful at UT. Dunno.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

They are going to cross the river and land, and use, Trinity up past the front of the Convention Center and where the Metro Rail currently is at 4th. Then go along 4th down to Lavaca and Guadalupe which are each one way.

Would it be 2-way on Trinity then after it crosses the river? That is a pretty narrow street if I remember correctly. And after it turns west on 4th I wonder if they could just extend the commuter rail tracks and use those with another placed in the other lane for 2-way train traffic to Lavaca/Guadalupe. Is there ever a plan to extend the commuter rail further west from 4th/Trinity? It seems like it could be extended a few blocks using the same tracks as the light rail with one more downtown stop just east or west of Congress on 4th.

I think the new rail bridge presents Austin with a great opportunity for a signature design, something like Portland's rail bridge:

http://www.railway-technology.com/pr...ght-rail6.html

[BevoLJ]

Trinity south of first is just an alleyway I believe. Someone correct me if wrong? In front of the convention center it is two lanes going north. I imagined it as a pedestrian only with two way streetcars on it, if this plan happens. That area already gets extremely busy at times, but when these two 1,000 room hotels next to the convention center, plus a few other large hotels right there, are done (which will be long before any of this urban rail is done) that area is to be crazy busy.

For the Metro Rail, I don't think they would take it west. The LSR Commuter line between San Antonio and Austin will have a downtown station near 3rd and Lamar where the Amtrak station currently is. It would be great if the Metro Rail went all the way to the LSR station, but I don't see that ever happening. The Metro Rail is on 4th and the street cars will go down 4th, but crossing Shoal Creek using 4th isn't an option and I can't much imagine that you could turn those larger commuter rails down another street and over like you can the street cars to cross the creek at 3rd or near there.

Although now I think about it... isn't there some old rail bridge crossing the creek near the Music Hall?

[electricron]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

Trinity south of first is just an alleyway I believe. Someone correct me if wrong? In front of the convention center it is two lanes going north. I imagined it as a pedestrian only with two way streetcars on it, if this plan happens. That area already gets extremely busy at times, but when these two 1,000 room hotels next to the convention center, plus a few other large hotels right there, are done (which will be long before any of this urban rail is done) that area is to be crazy busy.

For the Metro Rail, I don't think they would take it west. The LSR Commuter line between San Antonio and Austin will have a downtown station near 3rd and Lamar where the Amtrak station currently is. It would be great if the Metro Rail went all the way to the LSR station, but I don't see that ever happening. The Metro Rail is on 4th and the street cars will go down 4th, but crossing Shoal Creek using 4th isn't an option and I can't much imagine that you could turn those larger commuter rails down another street and over like you can the street cars to cross the creek at 3rd or near there.

Although now I think about it... isn't there some old rail bridge crossing the creek near the Music Hall?

Ideally, most cities believe funneling all transit into one central station is grand. But the largest cities around the world don't, so it's not as grand as many think.

My opinion is that the existing Red Line should be extended west to around Guadalupe-Lavaca BRT; three to four blocks west of Congress on 4th Street. Not only do you enlarge the footprint of commuter rail downtown, you also provide a node for transfers to the BRT.
If an at-grade alignment is needed further west, maybe the commuter rail line would be better placed on 5th Street? On 5th Street, you'll be one block further north into downtown, and there will be no need for sharp, slow, wheel squealing turns. It'll be a straight shot all the way through downtown Austin. It shouldn't be too difficult or too expensive to move a few blocks of existing rail.
Rail lines a block apart can still be effectively combined into one station at the Lone Star station. Look at Denver's redevelopment of its Union Station area, light rails and commuter rails are more than one block apart with a bus area in-between.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by electricron

I suggest they do some research and discover which bus lines attract the most riders and build the first streetcar line there.

Yeah. If only somebody had thought of that.

The bus lines with the most ridership run basically on the 2000 light rail route (combining the ridership of the #1 and the #98x express buses), which can now never be built in any reasonably useful form because of the Red Line. I've only told you this eleventy billion times by now.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

I don't think they are using Congress. At least not in the first few phases.

If I remember right the first part is Downtown and the bridge. The most important part is there is only one place they can put the maintenance shed and that is south of the river. So they are doing that, the bridge, through DT and UT first. That is the first part. After that is done they get a ton of Federal money and they do the part to the airport. Then the part from UT to Hancock.

The first part DT, I don't think they are planning on using Congress at all. It is far to busy as I understand. They are going to cross the river and land, and use, Trinity up past the front of the Convention Center and where the Metro Rail currently is at 4th. Then go along 4th down to Lavaca and Guadalupe which are each one way. Lavaca will go north and Guadalupe south. Those are also better because Congress ends at the Capitol so is kinda in the way when going to UT, which isn't an issue with Lavaca and Guad. Anyway, then they hit 17th and 18th which are also one way. South line uses 18th going west, and then down Guad to 4th. While the north line goes up Lavaca to 17th east. San Jacinto it is what is used at UT. The south line goes from SJ to 18th and on, while the north line goes 17th to SJ up into UT, near the tennis courts near the Frank Erwin Center and up to the football stadium and so on to Dean Keeton.

Anyway, that is how I think it is planned. There is a lot of talk about trying to get it on Speedway through UT, but there were issues with how it would effect on going research. Considering the new Computer School that Bill Gates is building is on right by the Stadium and this line as it currently is would go right by it, I would imagine it would still have heavy effects on research. Although they are looking at using some fancy types of Streetcars that can go for a mile or two with no overhead lines to power them, and recharges when it gets back under the lines down the road. So that could be helpful at UT. Dunno.

This is all old news.

More recent thinking is go from downtown to Mueller by means of Red River and Hancock - and don't bother crossing river in first segment.

But even more recent thinking is that the medical school bond requirements may delay urban rail even further, which is probably a blessing in disguise since the pantloads behind urban rail have still been wavering on giving it its own lane through downtown which is an absolute requirement for it not to suck (it's on a semi-sucky route, so if you add the suck of being stuck behind cars, it will be a disastrous misinvestment of rail money we don't really have in the first place).

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

Trinity south of first is just an alleyway I believe. Someone correct me if wrong? In front of the convention center it is two lanes going north. I imagined it as a pedestrian only with two way streetcars on it, if this plan happens. That area already gets extremely busy at times, but when these two 1,000 room hotels next to the convention center, plus a few other large hotels right there, are done (which will be long before any of this urban rail is done) that area is to be crazy busy.

For the Metro Rail, I don't think they would take it west. The LSR Commuter line between San Antonio and Austin will have a downtown station near 3rd and Lamar where the Amtrak station currently is. It would be great if the Metro Rail went all the way to the LSR station, but I don't see that ever happening. The Metro Rail is on 4th and the street cars will go down 4th, but crossing Shoal Creek using 4th isn't an option and I can't much imagine that you could turn those larger commuter rails down another street and over like you can the street cars to cross the creek at 3rd or near there.

Although now I think about it... isn't there some old rail bridge crossing the creek near the Music Hall?

The LSR rail isn't going to happen in any useful form in the next decade because, as I predicted several years ago, UP isn't moving unless they're paid to do so, and nobody's going to be able to come up with the couple billion necessary to get them to do so.

At some point Jeb Boyt's going to be buying me a steak dinner over this, although given his behavior at A4PT I'm not sure I'll want it.

[Jdawgboy]

Yes I also heard about the medical school bonds may likely replace the mass transit rail on the ballot and I agree with M1EK, that it is a blessing in disguise. The biggest problem I see right now is still educating the public. They have done some things to address the issue through KLRU, and KXAN which has a great section called ATXpansion, but its not enough and while more people overall are now open to the idea because frankly there is no other choice, I think they need have more community forums city wide.

[BevoLJ]

Is the idea to move it to Red River to take advantage of the Waller Creek Project? It would also be kinda cool since RR is one block from Sabine which is already approved to be Ped/Bike only as part of the Waller Creek Project. If so I kind of like that idea, but only if they get they get their own lane and don't have to share with cars. When they get the federal money they can do the west side of Downtown.

What I really don't like about it is using RR to bypass UT. I liked the idea of San Jacinto. San Jacinto is near many of the schools + Jester at UT, and hits the stadium, but RR is better for the Erwin Center and Brakenridge, but misses pretty much all of UT. That is a heck of a walk or ride from say even McCombs, PCL or Bob Bullock with lots of large hills, and West Campus which is the densest area of Austin is entirely way to far and no one living over there would ever use it.

[electricron]

Why should the City of Austin sell bonds for the UT Medical School? Shouldn't UT be selling the bonds - and repaying the bonds off its profits?

[BevoLJ]

^^

I was wondering the same thing. lol

UT already has MD Anderson and 4 of the top Med Schools in the country. Not sure what they could possibly want from the City of Austin. Seems to me they are pretty dang good at the Med School thing themselves.

The Med School and the urban rail shouldn't have anything to do with each other.

[GoldenBoot]

Originally Posted by electricron

Why should the City of Austin sell bonds for the UT Medical School? Shouldn't UT be selling the bonds - and repaying the bonds off its profits?

That is true. If a University of Texas system medical school/health science center were to be created within the city limits of Austin, the city would not put up any cash toward the establishment of said institution (nor take on any debt – as would be the case in the sale of city bonds). They may, however, provide some tax abatements/incentives for such a project.

The State of Texas (more specifically, The University of Texas System) would be responsible for the funding of such a project. They may choose to use several forms of raising capital to make this dream come to fruition (including the possibility of using cash-on-hand, the sale of fixed income and equity sources, public and private fund development initiatives, etc.).

This is going to happen! The exact timeline is what is in question!

[GoldenBoot]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

^^

I was wondering the same thing. lol

UT already has MD Anderson and 4 of the top Med Schools in the country. Not sure what they could possibly want from the City of Austin. Seems to me they are pretty dang good at the Med School thing themselves.

The Med School and the urban rail shouldn't have anything to do with each other.

Only one...UT Southwestern in Dallas, is concidered as a "top" medical school. The others would be in the category of "good" to "very good."

Let's be more specific...the proposed HSC in Austin is intended to be a "research" institution. So, let's compare the current rankings of other Texas med schools in this category:

2012 US News ranks UT Southwestern (Dallas) as the #22 research medical school in the U.S.

Others which were ranked in this category:
Tied #22 = Baylor College of Medicine-Houston
Tied #56 = UTHSC-Houston
Tied #56 = UTMB Galveston
#60 = UTHSC-San Antonio
#84 = TAMUHSC-Bryan

[Myomi]

Originally Posted by electricron

Why should the City of Austin sell bonds for the UT Medical School? Shouldn't UT be selling the bonds - and repaying the bonds off its profits?

First...profits, really? I really hope you are not insinuating that the higher education in Texas is flush with cash.

Second, it is not unheard of for a municipality to offer some sort of incentives for a school to locate within its borders. Cities have been known to give land or build entire buildings, as well as give tax incentives and other deals to lure educational institutions to their cities. Considering the city of Austin has the most to gain from a medical school locating here, from new companies forming and hundreds of high paying jobs, it is not absurd for the city to put some skin into the game. And, with budget cuts at the state and university level, Austin stepping up with some proposals would really help speed this process along and boost the idea of locating a school close to downtown.

I agree that the medical school and urban rail issue are two separate issues and I am not quite sure why they are being looked at as either/or proposals. However, the local economic impact of a medical school is typically a 10 figure number. Why does it seem so absurd for the city to looking into making that kind of investment?

[M1EK]

The route move to Red River is only north of UT, as a better way to get to Mueller (and have a maintenance site / barn in phase 1).