Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

a) the ability to hold concerts in the colder half of the year (let's say mid-October to mid-April, a time of year when there typically aren't stadium concert tours)

Eh, this really depends. Larger stadium tours operate for years. Some notables:

Rolling Stones' Bigger Bang Tour (2005-2007)
Aug 2005, Ottawa, Frank Clair Stadium
Sept 2005, Moncton, Magnetic Hill
Sept 2005, Toronto, Rogers Centre
Oct 2005, Calgary, Saddledome
Jan 2006, Montreal, Bell Centre
Sept 2006, Halifax, Commons
Oct 2006, Regina, Mosaic x2
Nov 2006, Vancouver, BC Place

Ed Sheeran's ÷ Tour (2017-2019) visited most major Canadian arenas, but only Toronto's Rogers Centre got stadium shows (Rogers Centre x2, Aug 2018)

Guns n Roses' Not In This Lifetime Tour (2016-2019)
July 2016, Toronto, Rogers Centre
Aug 2017, Montreal, Parc Jean Drapeau
Aug 2017, Ottawa, TD Place Stadium
Aug 2017, Winnipeg, IGF
Aug 2017, Regina, Mosaic
Aug 2017, Edmonton, Commonwealth
Sept 2017, Vancouver, BC Place
Oct 2017, Toronto, Air Canada Centre (x2)

U2's 360 Tour (2009-2011)
Sept 2009, Toronto, Rogers Centre (x2)
Oct 2009, Vancouver, BC Place
May 2011, Winnipeg, Canad Inns
June 2011, Edmonton, Commonwealth
July 2011, Montreal, Hippodrome (x2)
July 2011, Toronto, Rogers Centre
July 2011, Moncton, Magnetic Hill

Montreal seems to have alternate options available for hosting larger-scale shows in the summer, and Olympic's concert-hosting history doesn't seem fantastic...most notable shows occurring between the 70s and 90s. I don't think Olympic makes an appearance on any of the top 20 highest-grossing concert tours of all-time, all of them taking place this century. I imagine a roof would make scheduling easier for winter months if acts are planning on doing Montreal in tandem with Toronto's Rogers Centre, but usually the winter months tours are either in warmer climates or doing exclusively arena shows. Montreal is absent entirely from a few of these world tours.

If tours are going through Montreal in the winter months they're probably ending up at Bell Centre.

I imagine trade shows are more lucrative for Olympic, but even then there are other indoor venues available in Montreal, as you point out.

Originally Posted by esquire

Is it worth spending hundreds of millions for Olympic Stadium to host a RV show in January and a soccer match in March? Seems highly unlikely to me.

I think the main hurdle is the fact that even just removing the roof costs money, so removing the roof and not replacing it removes 4-6 revenue-earning months by default. If the facility is looking to make back revenue to pay off removing and/or adding a new roof then they need as many revenue-earning dates as possible. I guess the main crux of this argument is 'how many events does Olympic even host?'

In my mind there isn't any scenario where spending money on Olympic is a good idea. It's a money pit and has been for 50 years now.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think the main hurdle is the fact that even just removing the roof costs money, so removing the roof and not replacing it removes 4-6 revenue-earning months by default. If the facility is looking to make back revenue to pay off removing and/or adding a new roof then they need as many revenue-earning dates as possible. I guess the main crux of this argument is 'how many events does Olympic even host?'

In my mind there isn't any scenario where spending money on Olympic is a good idea. It's a money pit and has been for 50 years now.

The problem is that doing anything will cost big money other than boarding the stadium up and abandoning it in situ.

I guess the question is which option presents the taxpayer with the best cost/benefit proposition?

Sure you could spend hundreds of millions on a new roof, but to what end? At least BC Place has the Lions and Whitecaps as tenants. No one plays in Olympic Stadium, and it doesn't seem to me that anyone is likely to start anytime soon. MLB won't go back there, MLS and CFL have their own stadiums. I don't know that $300 million on a roof so you can host a CCL match in February and a AC/DC concert in December is really worth it.

So going open air might cost a few bucks in winterization, but even if it costs, say, $25 million, the OIC's financial backers (I'm guessing mainly the provincial government?) might be far better off in the long run.

[Denscity]

And with the cost of lumber nowadays just literally boarding it up would be expensive too lol.

[Denscity]

I say open air as well.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

The problem is that doing anything will cost big money other than boarding the stadium up and abandoning it in situ.

I guess the question is which option presents the taxpayer with the best cost/benefit proposition?

Sure you could spend hundreds of millions on a new roof, but to what end? At least BC Place has the Lions and Whitecaps as tenants. No one plays in Olympic Stadium, and it doesn't seem to me that anyone is likely to start anytime soon. MLB won't go back there, MLS and CFL have their own stadiums. I don't know that $300 million on a roof so you can host a CCL match in February and a AC/DC concert in December is really worth it.

So going open air might cost a few bucks in winterization, but even if it costs, say, $25 million, the OIC's financial backers (I'm guessing mainly the provincial government?) might be far better off in the long run.

The main issue, as you point out, is that there's no tenants in place either willing to put the money up for it for use or to share in revenues to offset costs. When BC Place was renovated it had two tenants (Lions and Caps) along with a slew of other events (CMNT, World Rugby, etc.). It made economic sense to replace and renovate. Olympic lacks nearly all of these incentives. Even if there's hundreds of millions put in for a roof replacement (or, worst case, simply a roof teardown) there's no guarantee the rest of the facility is up to par for hosting international or one-off events in its current state.

Through my reading of feasibility reports and history of the stadium I didn't see anything structurally preventing the stadium from remaining open air in the past aside from weather for the Expos and Alouettes - it was actually noteworthy that the stadium would be primarily used for professional teams after an amateur event, a first for Olympic venues IIRC.. The incentive for completing the roof after the Olympics was to finish the tower and the main focal point of the stadium itself, the retractable roof. Ensuring the legacy of the design and architect's vision, etc.

Regardless, there's no current or future tenant, so it seems pointless to spend much of anything on the facility at present. At this stage it's probably not even worth renovating for a handful of World Cup matches, if it was even worth it in the first place.

[Denscity]

Lots of classic trade shows at BC Place traditionally as well including Auto and Boat.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Lots of classic trade shows at BC Place traditionally as well including Auto and Boat.

Those are just gravy, though. You make a few grand by opening the doors to stuff like that on a non-event day. No one spends hundreds of millions of dollars on facility improvements so they can host the boat show.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Those are just gravy, though. You make a few grand by opening the doors to stuff like that on a non-event day. No one spends hundreds of millions of dollars on facility improvements so they can host the boat show.

Yes. Just adding other events BC Place hosts throughout the year.
I say open air for Montreal.

[JHikka]

As Olympic sits empty next door, Saputo mulls putting $75-100M into Stade Saputo.

An improved Saputo Stadium would cost between $75M and $100M
Jeremy Filosa
March 3, 2022

The first major change is to add the number of premium tickets to the stadium. So we were going to destroy the northern section of the stadium, from the press gallery (Sherbrooke Street) upwards. It was planned to raise four floors of luxury glass boxes, a section that we wanted to call the "club" section.

In these sections, a ticket can sell for a few hundred dollars, which is much more than a regular ticket.

In most MLS stadiums, 15% of the tickets are premium value, which is where most of the profit is. The wealthiest teams collect around 50% to 70% of their income via these tickets.

Right now, at Saputo Stadium, only 6% of seats are considered premium. A clear delay compared to the other stadiums of the league. CF Montreal would rather target 12% to 14% of premium seats.

In addition to the club section, the intention was to move the players' entrance to the field to the center of the north section, and no longer to the northwest corner. Premium sections around this access were also planned.

There is also work to be done all around the stadium to increase electrical capacity, add food concessions, terraces and bathrooms. Not to mention the improvement of the two entrances to the stadium.

A major problem for Joey Saputo is that his stadium is only used 18 to 20 times per season. To make it profitable, the club thought of holding other events there. There was even talk, at one point, of inviting the Alouettes to play their games there.

But it would have been necessary to replace the benches closest to the field with removable seats, because currently the field is not large enough to accommodate a CFL club. There is also the problem of the natural ground which would take for its cold if a football team settled there.

So if it's not football, then you have to find other events. Concerts would also be difficult to organize.

As mentioned above, unlike Tim Horton's Field in Hamilton, for example, Stade Saputo is not designed for winter.

Replacing the playing surface with a heated pitch isn't the biggest challenge, but it's a problem that's pointless to fix if the rest isn't done.

What's the point of having a heated surface if the rest of the stadium is unusable. Remember that the plumbing is not functional during the winter and the benches are not designed to be used on cold days either. They may also need to be replaced. Everything must be done to make it usable.

https://www.985fm.ca/nouvelles/sport...-75-m-et-100-m

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

As Olympic sits empty next door, Saputo mulls putting $75-100M into Stade Saputo.

An improved Saputo Stadium would cost between $75M and $100M
Jeremy Filosa
March 3, 2022

The first major change is to add the number of premium tickets to the stadium. So we were going to destroy the northern section of the stadium, from the press gallery (Sherbrooke Street) upwards. It was planned to raise four floors of luxury glass boxes, a section that we wanted to call the "club" section.

In these sections, a ticket can sell for a few hundred dollars, which is much more than a regular ticket.

In most MLS stadiums, 15% of the tickets are premium value, which is where most of the profit is. The wealthiest teams collect around 50% to 70% of their income via these tickets.

Right now, at Saputo Stadium, only 6% of seats are considered premium. A clear delay compared to the other stadiums of the league. CF Montreal would rather target 12% to 14% of premium seats.

In addition to the club section, the intention was to move the players' entrance to the field to the center of the north section, and no longer to the northwest corner. Premium sections around this access were also planned.

There is also work to be done all around the stadium to increase electrical capacity, add food concessions, terraces and bathrooms. Not to mention the improvement of the two entrances to the stadium.

A major problem for Joey Saputo is that his stadium is only used 18 to 20 times per season. To make it profitable, the club thought of holding other events there. There was even talk, at one point, of inviting the Alouettes to play their games there.

But it would have been necessary to replace the benches closest to the field with removable seats, because currently the field is not large enough to accommodate a CFL club. There is also the problem of the natural ground which would take for its cold if a football team settled there.

So if it's not football, then you have to find other events. Concerts would also be difficult to organize.

As mentioned above, unlike Tim Horton's Field in Hamilton, for example, Stade Saputo is not designed for winter.

Replacing the playing surface with a heated pitch isn't the biggest challenge, but it's a problem that's pointless to fix if the rest isn't done.

What's the point of having a heated surface if the rest of the stadium is unusable. Remember that the plumbing is not functional during the winter and the benches are not designed to be used on cold days either. They may also need to be replaced. Everything must be done to make it usable.

https://www.985fm.ca/nouvelles/sport...-75-m-et-100-m

Good automated translation.

Almost the only tipoff that that's what it is is this:

which would take for its cold

[esquire]

Sounds like pretty good bang for the buck on a $75-$100 million project.

As for the Alouettes moving in there, I remember one of the reasons they and the Expos wanted out of Olympic Stadium was because the location was considered too inconvenient. Is that an issue at all for CF Montreal? In some respects I was a little surprised when that stadium was built in the first place considering all the criticism we've heard of the Big O's location.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

As for the Alouettes moving in there, I remember one of the reasons they and the Expos wanted out of Olympic Stadium was because the location was considered too inconvenient. Is that an issue at all for CF Montreal? In some respects I was a little surprised when that stadium was built in the first place considering all the criticism we've heard of the Big O's location.

I think the location complaint for both Olympic and Stade Saputo are overblown. It's on the island atop two Metro stations not far from downtown. Stade Molson is in an ideal location and can't get much better than that, but Olympic Park isn't that bad. A location like Peel Basin might be marginally better but not by a lot, IMO.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think the location complaint for both Olympic and Stade Saputo are overblown. It's on the island atop two Metro stations not far from downtown. Stade Molson is in an ideal location and can't get much better than that, but Olympic Park isn't that bad. A location like Peel Basin might be marginally better but not by a lot, IMO.

I personally didn't see what the fuss was about, I wondered if it was just part of the usual rhetoric that owners plant in fans minds whenever they are agitating for an new facility (it's falling apart, the location sucks, the concourses are too tight, all the usual greatest hits). But as you know, some teams have different fanbases with different locations so I was wondering if it was less of an issue with CF Montreal than it was for football and baseball.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I personally didn't see what the fuss was about, I wondered if it was just part of the usual rhetoric that owners plant in fans minds whenever they are agitating for an new facility (it's falling apart, the location sucks, the concourses are too tight, all the usual greatest hits). But as you know, some teams have different fanbases with different locations so I was wondering if it was less of an issue with CF Montreal than it was for football and baseball.

Saputo's hobby is complaining about the taxes he pays on Stade Saputo. I think CF Montreal only owns the stadium but leases the property from RIO? Anyway, most of it is just blowing hot air to get a more favourable deal.

Stade Saputo does have legitimate issues, a lot of which would be addressed with this proposal. It's quickly fallen behind the standard set by other MLS clubs and new stadiums throughout the league.

[esquire]

^ Yes, I can understand the concerns on that level as Saputo was never built to modern MLS spec. But I gather that the proposed improvements would address all that?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Yes, I can understand the concerns on that level as Saputo was never built to modern MLS spec. But I gather that the proposed improvements would address all that?

I think they would address almost all of them, yes. A new North Stand and increased premium seating will go a long way to improving revenue streams for the FO, and improvements to concessions, washrooms, and entrances are sorely needed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Sounds like pretty good bang for the buck on a $75-$100 million project.

As for the Alouettes moving in there, I remember one of the reasons they and the Expos wanted out of Olympic Stadium was because the location was considered too inconvenient. Is that an issue at all for CF Montreal? In some respects I was a little surprised when that stadium was built in the first place considering all the criticism we've heard of the Big O's location.

In 10-15 years of Saputo's existence, I don't think I've ever heard a single person complain about the stadium's location.

Either personally, or on any type of media.

It's somewhat common for Gatineau soccer fans to take a day trip to Saputo to see an MLS game, and again I've never heard anyone complain about where the stadium is located.

[esquire]

If the owners had to start over again and build a full-on MLS stadium, I wonder if they'd still choose Olympic Park as the site?

EDIT: just saw acajack's comment above. So I guess the answer is "yes"?

In all of Canada the only sports venue I can think of that I avoided based on its location is Canadian Tire Centre. The Sens are the only Canadian NHL team I've never seen at home because I just couldn't be bothered to venture that far out. By contrast, I've seen the 67s play a couple of times.

[J.OT13]

Deadline to submit an expression of interest for the LeBreton Flats "destination" building was last Monday, February 28th. The NCC imposed a gag order until they release the proposals end of April. Sens were asked if they made a submission; "no comment", soooo... yes?

[thurmas]

Alouettes facilities are still at Olympic Park and a move to modern saputo would make sense. Since the expos ballpark is not happening this would be a good alternative. The metro ride from downtown to Olympic Park is a breeze and very convenient.