ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[smArTaLlone]

I agree. Slowly but surely....

[CityFan]

I still don't understand why we need the bill if the tax money is not needed to develop massive transit system in a county. Is it regulated by the state?

[sabino86]

Originally Posted by vandiver49

I can't believe it!! The state Senate might pass a bill allowing other metro counties to determine rail service in their areas? Brilliant!!

About damn time...

[Hybrid0NE]

GA's government has obviously lost it's mind. First, they're trying to take back land from TN and now they're allowing MARTA to potentially extend rail service outside of the perimeter. Hopefully, this will get approved before rural folk retrieve their senses.

[Fiorenza]

Howell Mill Road Situation

[ThrashATL]

Originally Posted by Hybrid0NE

GA's government has obviously lost it's mind. First, they're trying to take back land from TN and now they're allowing MARTA to potentially extend rail service outside of the perimeter. Hopefully, this will get approved before rural folk retrieve their senses.

By golly, that durn MARTA has already slipped through the fence and is outside the Pee-rimeter as we speak. That is unless you meant a county that isn't already paying for it.

[Hybrid0NE]

Originally Posted by ThrashATL

That is unless you meant a county that isn't already paying for it.

Duh..

[kamden99]

Extensive streetcar line won't work, says project planner

The urban planner who helped inspired Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin to support a proposed streetcar system along Peachtree Street said today the project should be downsized.

Andres Duany said at a meeting of the Midtown Alliance the current proposal is too long to be economically viable. Duany supported a mile-line route in Midtown that a task force appointed by the mayor expanded to include downtown Atlanta and tourist destinations east and west of the central business district.

Hopefully, this plan goes through and it downsized to a reasonable length...

[kamden99]

Connector paving project to close lanes

Man, I'm glad I carpool and telework!!!

I love this quote at the end of the article:

The schedule goes from 9 p.m. Friday to 5 a.m. Monday. If lane closures bleed past their allowed window, McGee said, they are fined $10,000 an hour, which "tends to get people's attention."

Better get cracking!!

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by kamden99

Extensive streetcar line won't work, says project planner



Hopefully, this plan goes through and it downsized to a reasonable length...

I know this guy is a "god" of urbanism but I would rather they base transit plans on studies of what is needed and feasable rather than one guys opinion.

[megalopolis]

Originally Posted by kamden99

Extensive streetcar line won't work, says project planner



Hopefully, this plan goes through and it downsized to a reasonable length...

I would support that, just to get the project started, as long as it was built to be easily expanded later.

[kamden99]

Originally Posted by megalopolis

I would support that, just to get the project started, as long as it was built to be easily expanded later.

AGREED! Let's just get this thing going!

[jaypkatl]

After living in San Francisco for 4 months now (moved from ATL in Dec), light rail is a great thing. I honestly believe that Atlanta can support it. If this wacko is basing his opinion on bus ridership in the same area, then yea it would seem not to be viable, but buses are not light rail. In 5 years I NEVER got on a bus in Atlanta, but took MARTA many, many times. I believe that many Atlantans feel the same way about buses. There would easily be enough ridership to sustain light rail.

I think a better place for light rail would be down piedmont to 14th, then down 14th to Peachtree to Buckhead and a split to go up 17th to Atlantic Station.

[popewiz]

Originally Posted by jaypkatl

After living in San Francisco for 4 months now (moved from ATL in Dec), light rail is a great thing. I honestly believe that Atlanta can support it. If this wacko is basing his opinion on bus ridership in the same area, then yea it would seem not to be viable, but buses are not light rail. In 5 years I NEVER got on a bus in Atlanta, but took MARTA many, many times. I believe that many Atlantans feel the same way about buses. There would easily be enough ridership to sustain light rail.

I think a better place for light rail would be down piedmont to 14th, then down 14th to Peachtree to Buckhead and a split to go up 17th to Atlantic Station.

You do realize that your proposed route cuts out almost all of Midtown and all of Downtown right?

[jaypkatl]

Those areas have the current Train. My route was to incorporate areas that are not served by rail and cross underground train at certain points to allow for easy transfers.

[testarossa50]

Hello everyone

First post, but I've been lurking a while. I work in logistics, mostly with rail infrastructure development, and I have studied Atlanta's transit proposals both for work and for fun.

I have some thoughts on Atlanta's transit in general.

Beltline

You guys are going to hate me for saying this, but I think this is a fundamentally flawed transit concept. I understand it's nice that we have a somewhat continuous ring of rail in various states of use around downtown, but that doesn't mean it's a great idea for us to redevelop it as a light rail corridor.

First off, this is much more a "neat and aesthetic" transit use than a utilitarian one. People won't commute to work en masse on this. Nor would there be ample parking anywhere around it to do so. This suggests, to me, that it makes more sense to develop as a streetcar line, rather than a light rail line.

Further, there are numerous discontinuities in the Beltline, and they ain't pretty. It's likely the most feasible work-arounds will require hairpin turns and rapid changes in elevation, both of which are much better handled by streetcars than light rail (unless we want to get involved in some hairy grading and acquisition issues).

Finally, since we already have excellent plans for a streetcar, why not make our two major transit proposals compatible?

The bottom line is that this is hardly a conventional application of light rail. Successful light rail projects in other cities focus on medium-distance commutes and infrequent stops. This doesn't meet that standard to me.

As a ring of parks, I think the Beltline is much more feasible and nearly as useful.

And on discontinuities, I have no earthly idea how the city plans to occupy CSX's Hulsey Yard intermodal terminal in Cabbagetown. I can tell you firsthand it's going to be extremely difficult to get that terminal moved, as it is an extremely important entry point of shipping containers to the city (probably 1/5 to 1/6 of our total volume). The current expansion of the only possible candidate to take the volume--the master planned Fairburn Intermodal Terminal--is slanted to take BNSF container volume from the west coast (which formerly would have terminated in Brimingham and continued via truck) rather than traditional CSX volume. Fairburn probably could be expanded at long last, but it would require someone forking over cash and working with the state to improve infrastructure to get the green light for more Fairburn trackage. Then you'd be left with mainline rail, as opposed to mainline rail and an intermodal terminal.

Peachtree Streetcar

This is an excellent idea, and a great application of streetcars.

The city, with its usual social and political agendas, is doing its best to kill it. Why are they buying so absurdly much land alongside to turn into parks? Why does it have to run three long miles all the way to Buckhead? Worse, why in the world does it go all the way to Fort McPherson in the south?!

This list of cushy add-ons has shot the budget up by an order of magnitude and greatly diminished the chances we get anything at all. Meanwhile, lots of those commuter lots the city wants to turn into parks are getting sucked up by developers (thankfully, IMO). The city needs to reduce the scope of this project. Badly.

Five Points to Midtown should be the goal. Master plan for expansion, give it a chance to succeed, and let the density come. And forget this idea that the streetcar should turn a profit. It should be free or nearly so.


I have ideas about the other concepts (Lovejoy & Brain Train), but those concepts seem to have less backing and inertia.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to discussing Atlanta with you guys!

[Fiorenza]

Thanks for your input. I for one happen to agree with both your main points.

[trainiac]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

Hello everyone

Hey, there. Very interesting points. You are right on the money with the discontinuity problems as far as the Beltline goes. Back in the day (you know, when TAD money was gonna flow like manna), transit almost seemed like it was being planned to roll out early but now I'll bet we end up more like Garvin's Emerald Necklace plan (PDF of the plan)

And on discontinuities, I have no earthly idea how the city plans to occupy CSX's Hulsey Yard intermodal terminal in Cabbagetown. I can tell you firsthand it's going to be extremely difficult to get that terminal moved, as it is an extremely important entry point of shipping containers to the city (probably 1/5 to 1/6 of our total volume). The current expansion of the only possible candidate to take the volume--the master planned Fairburn Intermodal Terminal--is slanted to take BNSF container volume from the west coast (which formerly would have terminated in Brimingham and continued via truck) rather than traditional CSX volume. Fairburn probably could be expanded at long last, but it would require someone forking over cash and working with the state to improve infrastructure to get the green light for more Fairburn trackage. Then you'd be left with mainline rail, as opposed to mainline rail and an intermodal terminal.

I really like Garvin's proposal as it plans for reasonable stages: Hulsey Yard? OK, just run the trail through the Krog Street bridge. Someday far down the line, the economics might change and maybe do something more ambitious but for the time being just run it through the existing tunnel. I'm more worried about the westside issues (busiest rail corridor in the southeast). I think the Lindburgh/Armour discontinuity has some major grading issues but the trail part looks OK via the old bridle path.

Five Points to Midtown should be the goal. Master plan for expansion, give it a chance to succeed, and let the density come. And forget this idea that the streetcar should turn a profit. It should be free or nearly so.

Yeah, this is the only section that would succeed at first, but I'd sure like to see it go through Brookwood and lower-Buckhead and to the village. But I'll take what I can get.

I have ideas about the other concepts (Lovejoy & Brain Train), but those concepts seem to have less backing and inertia.

Maybe the recent delay in the sale of City Hall East will give Morseberger more time to push the Brain Train again. It seems like I love every idea he comes up with. It makes so much sense to be able to catch a train from Five Points to downtown Athens!

Thanks for reading, looking forward to discussing Atlanta with you guys!

Same to you

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by trainiac

Hey, there. Very interesting points. You are right on the money with the discontinuity problems as far as the Beltline goes. Back in the day (you know, when TAD money was gonna flow like manna), transit almost seemed like it was being planned to roll out early but now I'll bet we end up more like Garvin's Emerald Necklace plan (PDF of the plan)

I really like Garvin's proposal as it plans for reasonable stages: Hulsey Yard? OK, just run the trail through the Krog Street bridge. Someday far down the line, the economics might change and maybe do something more ambitious but for the time being just run it through the existing tunnel. I'm more worried about the westside issues (busiest rail corridor in the southeast). I think the Lindburgh/Armour discontinuity has some major grading issues but the trail part looks OK via the old bridle path.

I guess I was being a bit--err--pragmatic about the application of the whole thing, assuming it could never get built in one phase, and connecting the westside would be the most difficult and arguably least valuable link to make. I think the transit aspect of the project would be best served by connecting northeast to southeast first, then dealing with the other half later. The only things that stand in the way of this are Hulsey and I-20, the latter of which isn't that big a deal as far as I can tell.

I think extending the beltline from NE to SE would help revitalize that part of Atlanta, which is chock full of underutilized land that could go towards both parks and density. Getting parks in there would be a great first step.

Yeah, this is the only section that would succeed at first, but I'd sure like to see it go through Brookwood and lower-Buckhead and to the village. But I'll take what I can get.

I agree this is a vital long term plan, and I think it has a halfway decent chance of working from DT all the way through Buckhead and out the other side right now, as is. I just would like to see the city go about one of these projects in a sensible, phase-by-phase manner. In Portland, they started off with a modest streetcar line, and now the city and taxpayers are jumping on every expansion they can.

Maybe the recent delay in the sale of City Hall East will give Morseberger more time to push the Brain Train again. It seems like I love every idea he comes up with. It makes so much sense to be able to catch a train from Five Points to downtown Athens!

I agree; this is a completely underrated transit proposal that has multiple viable uses (weekday commuters and weekend college students). While at UGA I would def have used it to see my friends at Tech/GA State, since the car is pretty much a hassle once you get it down to ATL. With gas the way it is, it costs someone at least $20 to drive round trip to/from ATH, so it should compete with driving just fine. And this isn't one of CSX's most important rail lines (the one that goes from NW to SW is way more important, as you've mentioned), esp since the GM Doraville plant closing has decreased automotive traffic substantially. I think a cash-for-daytime track rights deal would be possible here.

Why people are shunning this great idea in favor of the much more dubious Lovejoy commuter line, I'll never quite understand.

[smArTaLlone]

^^ Enjoyed reading your thoughts. I can't tell by some of the posts I've read recently if everyone is aware of the $190 million first phase of the street car that is currently on the table.

Why are they buying so absurdly much land alongside to turn into parks?

Where is this happening?