My dream light rail and streetcar system for the Phoenix metro area

[Pink Jazz]

FYI, on the City of Phoenix's Talk Transportation website, one user suggested that the Orange Line should start further west at Bell Road and Jackrabbit Road. That way the residents of Surprise and Sun City can have a light rail route.

N830MH, what do you think about this?

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

FYI, on the City of Phoenix's Talk Transportation website, one user suggested that the Orange Line should start further west at Bell Road and Jackrabbit Road. That way the residents of Surprise and Sun City can have a light rail route.

N830MH, what do you think about this?

Do the cities of Surprise and Sun City fund Phoenix's light rail system? From the following, I don't think so.

History and Funding sources:
1985, Maricopa County voters approved passage of a proposition that approved a one-half cent sales tax to fund freeway construction with a portion, or $5 million per year (inflated annually), as seed money for regional transit service expansion.
1988, Scottsdale passed a transportation tax that allowed funding for transit and transportation projects.
1993, the RPTA Board of Directors adopted Valley Metro as the identity for the regional transit system.
1996, Tempe passed a half-cent sales tax dedicated for transit, allowing them to expand their existing bus service and explore future options, such as light rail.
1998, Mesa passed a quality-of-life half-cent sales tax, which dedicated a small portion for transit, with the remainder going toward parks and recreation, and police and fire departments.
2000, Phoenix passed a four-tenths of a percent sales tax for improvements to local bus service, BRT, LRT, Mini-Bus, and more.
2001, Glendale passed a half-cent sales tax dedicated for transit and other transportation improvements.
2004, Maricopa County extended the half-cent county-wide sales tax originally authorized in 1985. The tax allocates over one-third of tax revenues, or $5.8 billion (before inflation) for transit, including light rail.
2005, Peoria voters approved a three-tenths cent sales tax increase dedicated to funding transportation projects and services in Peoria.
2010, the State legislature repealed a large portion of money ($22 million annually in Maricopa County out of $34 million statewide) that has supported public transportation services in the Valley for 30 years.

The cities of Sun City and Surprise do not contribute any revenues for the light rail system. So the likelihood the transit board will extend light rail to them is extremely small.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by electricron

Do the cities of Surprise and Sun City fund Phoenix's light rail system? From the following, I don't think so.

History and Funding sources:
1985, Maricopa County voters approved passage of a proposition that approved a one-half cent sales tax to fund freeway construction with a portion, or $5 million per year (inflated annually), as seed money for regional transit service expansion.
1988, Scottsdale passed a transportation tax that allowed funding for transit and transportation projects.
1993, the RPTA Board of Directors adopted Valley Metro as the identity for the regional transit system.
1996, Tempe passed a half-cent sales tax dedicated for transit, allowing them to expand their existing bus service and explore future options, such as light rail.
1998, Mesa passed a quality-of-life half-cent sales tax, which dedicated a small portion for transit, with the remainder going toward parks and recreation, and police and fire departments.
2000, Phoenix passed a four-tenths of a percent sales tax for improvements to local bus service, BRT, LRT, Mini-Bus, and more.
2001, Glendale passed a half-cent sales tax dedicated for transit and other transportation improvements.
2004, Maricopa County extended the half-cent county-wide sales tax originally authorized in 1985. The tax allocates over one-third of tax revenues, or $5.8 billion (before inflation) for transit, including light rail.
2005, Peoria voters approved a three-tenths cent sales tax increase dedicated to funding transportation projects and services in Peoria.
2010, the State legislature repealed a large portion of money ($22 million annually in Maricopa County out of $34 million statewide) that has supported public transportation services in the Valley for 30 years.

The cities of Sun City and Surprise do not contribute any revenues for the light rail system. So the likelihood the transit board will extend light rail to them is extremely small.

Actually, much of the cities you listed don't actually have a dedicated transit tax; most of transit here (including light rail) in the Valley is funded by Proposition 400, which was passed by Maricopa County voters in 2004.

Note that Chandler does not have a dedicated transit tax, but is on the Valley Metro Light Rail Board of Directors.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

FYI, on the City of Phoenix's Talk Transportation website, one user suggested that the Orange Line should start further west at Bell Road and Jackrabbit Road. That way the residents of Surprise and Sun City can have a light rail route.

N830MH, what do you think about this?

I don't think they can do it. Because it was too far away from there. I think that they have to stay in Phoenix area. It won't be Surprise & Sun City. It was not an option.

[Pink Jazz]

Sorry to bump, but as an enhancement to the my light rail system, there would also be a community circulator bus that would serve Queen Creek, southeast Gilbert, and east Mesa which would serve as a feeder to the Pink Line. There was a transit survey in 2013 to Queen Creek residents on which transit mode would they prefer, and one of the most popular choices was a community circulator.

My idea of a community circulator to feed into the Pink Line would serve ASU Polytechnic, Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport, the Queen Creek Marketplace, the neighborhoods of Seville and Freeman Farms, SanTan Village, and Cooley Station via Sossaman, Rittenhouse, Ellsworth, Chandler Heights, Greenfield, Market, and Williams Field back to ASU Poly.

What does anyone think about this idea for a currently unserved portion of the Valley?

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

Sorry to bump, but as an enhancement to the my light rail system, there would also be a community circulator bus that would serve Queen Creek, southeast Gilbert, and east Mesa which would serve as a feeder to the Pink Line. There was a transit survey in 2013 to Queen Creek residents on which transit mode would they prefer, and one of the most popular choices was a community circulator.

My idea of a community circulator to feed into the Pink Line would serve ASU Polytechnic, Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport, the Queen Creek Marketplace, the neighborhoods of Seville and Freeman Farms, SanTan Village, and Cooley Station via Sossaman, Rittenhouse, Ellsworth, Chandler Heights, Greenfield, Market, and Williams Field back to ASU Poly.

What does anyone think about this idea for a currently unserved portion of the Valley?

Problem is, nobody needs this in these areas. Phoenix would be better served to have inner-city mass transit improvements versus outer/fringe suburban service that very few people need and/or ride.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

Such a network would cost what, $15-20 billion in capital expenses? What's the taxable value of the entire Pheonix tax base? $110 billion or so? That's way out of whack.

It's not really that out of whack. Normal infrastructure spending is supposed to be around 4% of GDP per year. That would mean 4.4B a year for Phoenix if your 110B number is right. Over 20 years (which is how long it would take to build all these lines) that would be 88B in funds. Spending 20 Billion of that on rail is a lot, but it would also likely reduce the amount of money needing to be spent on roads so if we say the net cost increase were only 10 Billion then it would be a 12% increase on infrastructure spending to get all this new transit.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Problem is, nobody needs this in these areas. Phoenix would be better served to have inner-city mass transit improvements versus outer/fringe suburban service that very few people need and/or ride.

Well, there was a survey to Queen Creek residents in 2013 on which transit mode would they prefer should Valley Metro enter Queen Creek in the future, and the two most popular options were either an express bus or a community circulator. My idea would be a community circulator that would be a supplement for my Pink Line light rail idea that would allow Queen Creek and south Gilbert residents to have easier access to the Pink Line.

[Pink Jazz]

Sorry to bump, but I have been thinking if my dream light rail system were to become a reality, what would be the yard distribution of each line? I don't think the Phoenix yard alone would be enough for my entire system. So I thought up this idea on which yards each line should be based at:

• The existing yard in Phoenix would be expanded for more cars. Lines based in Phoenix would include the Red, Blue, Silver, and Gold Lines.
• Tempe plans on building its own yard for the Tempe Streetcar (Green Line in my system). In my system the Tempe yard would be expanded for light rail. Lines based in Tempe would include the Green, Orange, Pink, Brown, and Purple Lines. While it may make more geographic sense to base the Orange Line in Phoenix, the Orange Line interlines with the Brown Line at Chandler Fashion Center and thus uses the same cars for both lines, thus basing it in Tempe along with the Brown Line would keep a more even distribution of lines between the two yards, otherwise having them based in separate yards would not allow the interlining of those two lines, reducing operational efficiency.

Any changes anyone would make to these yard assignments? Should there be additional yards besides Phoenix and Tempe?

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

Sorry to bump, but I have been thinking if my dream light rail system were to become a reality, what would be the yard distribution of each line? I don't think the Phoenix yard alone would be enough for my entire system. So I thought up this idea on which yards each line should be based at:

• The existing yard in Phoenix would be expanded for more cars. Lines based in Phoenix would include the Red, Blue, Silver, and Gold Lines.
• Tempe plans on building its own yard for the Tempe Streetcar (Green Line in my system). In my system the Tempe yard would be expanded for light rail. Lines based in Tempe would include the Green, Orange, Pink, Brown, and Purple Lines. While it may make more geographic sense to base the Orange Line in Phoenix, the Orange Line interlines with the Brown Line at Chandler Fashion Center and thus uses the same cars for both lines, thus basing it in Tempe along with the Brown Line would keep a more even distribution of lines between the two yards, otherwise having them based in separate yards would not allow the interlining of those two lines, reducing operational efficiency.

Any changes anyone would make to these yard assignments? Should there be additional yards besides Phoenix and Tempe?

Yes, I think they will have own landed for Tempe streetcars, but it won't be affected for metro light rail. I think they can do that. They will build a new yards for Tempe Streetcars, as well as new operational facility. It just only for streetcars, but not for metro light rail cars.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by N830MH

Yes, I think they will have own landed for Tempe streetcars, but it won't be affected for metro light rail. I think they can do that. They will build a new yards for Tempe Streetcars, as well as new operational facility. It just only for streetcars, but not for metro light rail cars.

I think it could easily be expanded for light rail in the future. In my system it would be too much for Phoenix to handle if all lines were based at a single yard.

[Pink Jazz]

Just as an update, I have shared my dream light rail idea with a friend that has been visiting us, and he liked my idea.

However, one thing that he was a bit skeptical of was interlining some lines at their endpoints. In my dream system, there would be two pairs of lines that would be interlined, the Orange and Brown Lines at Chandler Fashion Center, and as well as the Pink and Purple Lines at Superstition Springs Center.

My rationale for interlining these lines is to increase operational efficiency and make better use of pay hours for light rail operators. Several Phoenix area bus routes do this already during certain times of the day. However, our visiting friend says that interlining lines would cause potential confusion with riders when they board, thinking that they boarded one line when they actually boarded another.

I think potential mis-boarding could be alleviated if the destination signs are changed prior to arriving at the last stop. Multicolor LED destination signs can be used to help riders know what color line they are boarding, displaying the text in the color of the line.

What does anyone here think about interlining light rail lines?

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

What does anyone here think about interlining light rail lines?

My local subway station is served by five different light rail lines, all of which are interlined in the same tunnels in this part of town. Riders just need to become acculturated to boarding the correct line.

[Nouvellecosse]

It seems that the majority of multi-line LRT in NA has at least some interlined component. Usually it's just a shared downtown section but the trunk section can be much longer, As long as the corridor can reasonably support the low headways, then it's all good.

[Pink Jazz]

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here on what interlining means. Interlining does not refer to a corridor served by multiple lines, but refers to when a bus or rail vehicle arrives at a stop as one line and departs as a different line. Usually, interlining occurs when two bus or rail lines share a common endpoint.

In my dream light rail system for the Phoenix area, both the Orange and the Brown Line would share a common south/east endpoint at Chandler Fashion Center, thus the two lines can be interlined. At the same time, both the Pink and Purple Lines would share a common east endpoint at Superstition Springs Center.

The Red Line (the existing route plus an extension further east) would also have an east endpoint at Superstition Springs as well, but it would be more frequent than the Pink or Purple Lines and thus would be more difficult to interline it with either line. In addition, as mentioned in a previous post, I would have two rail yards (Phoenix and Tempe) in my system, and since the Red Line would be based out of Phoenix while the Pink and Purple Lines would be based out of Tempe, it defeats the purpose of interlining due to the rail cars being based out of two different yards.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...p104/32283455/

Prop. 104 winning in early Phoenix election results

We have a winner!!!

Prop. 104 is passing!!!

Congrats to those people who voting for MovePHX.

[tburrn]

Historically, in cities and metropolitan areas who share costs, sprawl has been subsidized and spurred at the expense of those who live in more dense areas because the costs of suburban road and utility maintenance per person/household are so much higher -- even when those facilities were initially provided to the city at the developers' cost.

People in areas with low density residential and without a dense employment or retail draw may love the idea of riding, and they may increase the absolute ridership numbers, but they will never reach an effective ridership per dollar of investment and expense.

The PHX metro area is growing -- but to grow in the most healthy fashion, such expensive facilities should only support and connect areas where denser walkable conditions already exist, are likely and imminent, or at least planned. (Walkable doesn't require skyscrapers.)

Such a network provides incentive for healthy growth, disincentive for existing and emerging sprawl and is most likely to result in a more equitable distribution of costs and benefits.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by tburrn

Historically, in cities and metropolitan areas who share costs, sprawl has been subsidized and spurred at the expense of those who live in more dense areas because the costs of suburban road and utility maintenance per person/household are so much higher -- even when those facilities were initially provided to the city at the developers' cost.

People in areas with low density residential and without a dense employment or retail draw may love the idea of riding, and they may increase the absolute ridership numbers, but they will never reach an effective ridership per dollar of investment and expense.

The PHX metro area is growing -- but to grow in the most healthy fashion, such expensive facilities should only support and connect areas where denser walkable conditions already exist, are likely and imminent, or at least planned. (Walkable doesn't require skyscrapers.)

Such a network provides incentive for healthy growth, disincentive for existing and emerging sprawl and is most likely to result in a more equitable distribution of costs and benefits.

Well, some of my lines (specifically Pink and Brown) have portions that have been identified as high capacity transit corridors in the past. The Pink Line I think would have a lot of traffic due to connecting three major malls (Chandler Fashion Center, SanTan Village, and Superstition Springs Center), a downtown area (Downtown Chandler), and a major employer (Intel).

[Pink Jazz]

Just as an update, I have rerouted my Orange Line in my dream light rail system to include a connection to the Blue Line at Westgate and to better serve Downtown Peoria. Come see my complete system here:
http://future.wikia.com/wiki/Valley_...y_Andros_1337)

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

Just as an update, I have rerouted my Orange Line in my dream light rail system to include a connection to the Blue Line at Westgate and to better serve Downtown Peoria. Come see my complete system here:
http://future.wikia.com/wiki/Valley_...y_Andros_1337)

You forgetting something? What about light rail will go to University of Phoenix Stadium? There's a lots of Cardinals fans who going to the games.