Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[MalcolmTucker]

Given that a start from scratch LRT study can cost in the range of millions of dollars, hopefully they start with that first, and get it passed as a framework document.

I don't understand how spending this $20 million is so hard, you don't even need to do a full busway. (which you shouldn't build before you have a new big study anyways, you don't want a first stage busway to be used as an excuse to stick with buses due to path dependency)

You could do 100 intersections with transit skip lanes in all four directions for that much (while adding signal priority to many others), and it would improve flow and speed dramatically. I can't imagine the roads between intersections are in grid lock, or else there would be much more clamoring for something to be done.

[Reed Solomon]

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

Given that a start from scratch LRT study can cost in the range of millions of dollars, hopefully they start with that first, and get it passed as a framework document.

Hopefully they skip the studies altogether and JUST DO IT.

We've had enough studies. They all come down to "it costs money"

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Reed Solomon

Hopefully they skip the studies altogether and JUST DO IT.

We've had enough studies. They all come down to "it costs money"

Oh, it depends what your studying. If your deciding whether to do it, that is an easy economist job that doesn't take any time at all.

If you want a study on BRT vs LRT street run vs LRT exclusive ROW vs LRT fully grade seperated/ALRT that is what costs the money.

For each of those options you want routes and cost projections, since different technology can change route structure. You want TOD potential studied. You want to do a detailed study on commuter patterns and secondary trip patterns.

[Andy6]

I just took the 58 Dakota Express bus from Osborne village home to St. Vital. I honestly don't see how a streetcar or subway would improve on that, except in terms of frequency. I would think that by far the optimal way to spend any transit money that might be available would be on things like a few dedicated busways and better frequency (and also better connections and waiting areas), not on rail-based systems that are wildly expensive and nowhere near as flexible as buses.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I just took the 58 Dakota Express bus from Osborne village home to St. Vital. I honestly don't see how a streetcar or subway would improve on that, except in terms of frequency. I would think that by far the optimal way to spend any transit money that might be available would be on things like a few dedicated busways and better frequency (and also better connections and waiting areas), not on rail-based systems that are wildly expensive and nowhere near as flexible as buses.

It is in the inflexibility that you get benefits, as it provides a signal to the market that high quality transit service will be in place at a particular point for a long period of time.

This is why that Portland, Oregon with one of the best bus systems on the continent, sees a majority of new development (intensification) around either the streetcar or LRT lines.

The one thing BRT doesn't have going for it is our cultures bia's towards rail, that is either imparted to infants/toddlers in rail centric children's entertainment, or is a natural disposition due to some fluke of evolutionary biology.

Note a couple points up that I advocated for spending the current money on:

100 intersections with transit skip lanes in all four directions for that much (while adding signal priority to many others), and it would improve flow and speed dramatically.

[Only The Lonely..]

Although I can see the logic behind Andy's practical approach to transit, in my opinion the bus will never be sexy.

I just can't imagine the East St.Paul crowd giving up their Land Rover and taking the 11 because it comes more frequently.

For some strange reason, rail travel just doesn't have that same stigma.

I'm inclined to believe that most people in Winnipeg, and indeed in other cities, view a community with a rail based transit system as a progressive and forward thinking community.

It's really all about optics. If you went to Vancover and said we could buy 60 new buses or extend the Skytrain system by a single stop, most people would probably vote for the Skytrain extension even though the availability of transit might be better with more buses.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I just took the 58 Dakota Express bus from Osborne village home to St. Vital. I honestly don't see how a streetcar or subway would improve on that, except in terms of frequency. I would think that by far the optimal way to spend any transit money that might be available would be on things like a few dedicated busways and better frequency (and also better connections and waiting areas), not on rail-based systems that are wildly expensive and nowhere near as flexible as buses.

Andy, I don't know why you can't find any positive in a modern mode of rapid transit, besides BRT. It's like you feel as though Winnipeg doesn't deserve to be on par with other large Canadian cities. We need to be thinking of the future instead of just the present. That is the issue with many people; they only think in the short term instead of the long term. It's frustrating as hell to still have so many people with a "can't do" mentality that apparently only applies to Winnipeg as far as many are concerned. I just want to bash my head against a wall with this issue!

We need more positive and forward-thinking efforts here people! It's time for Winnipeg to step out of it's comfort zone of mediocrity and fear of change, and help bring this city into the same category as other larger Canadian centres; it's not impossible. Winnipeg deserves the best!

[Andy6]

Well, very few of the professionals I work with in Toronto take the subway to work even though we have a stop in the building. I'm sure many haven't seen the inside of a subway car in decades. I think that people here tend to romanticize the subway or streetcar -- when you use it a lot the thrill rapidly wears off. I live close enough to walk to work just so that I can avoid the subway.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

We need more positive and forward-thinking efforts here people! It's time for Winnipeg to step out of it's comfort zone of mediocrity and fear of change, and help bring this city into the same category as other larger Canadian centres; it's not impossible. Winnipeg deserves the best!

With respect, that seems like a silly reason to spend hundreds of millions on a tiny LRT line when a smaller amount of money spent improving the bus system would have a more positive effect on the transportation situation in the city as a whole.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Andy6

With respect, that seems like a silly reason to spend hundreds of millions on a tiny LRT line when a smaller amount of money spent improving the bus system would have a more positive effect on the transportation situation in the city as a whole.

With respect, but is that the only portion of my statement you focused on? Like I said before, WE NEED TO PLAN FOR THE FUTURE. No Winnipeg isn't booming, but it is growing and with growth comes population density, and with population density comes the need for transit like LRT or other forms of rail transport. And in order to plan for the future, you need to invest (yes, spend money, I said it) for the future.

I guess you and I have different visions for the city. You are more of an old fashioned guy who wants Winnipeg to stay the way it is, and I want to see Winnipeg become competitive with other large Canadian centres. I do respect your opinion though.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

I guess you and I have different visions for the city. You are more of an old fashioned guy who wants Winnipeg to stay the way it is, and I want to see Winnipeg become competitive with other large Canadian centres. I do respect your opinion though.

From what I have read in this forum I do not think this is a fair comment. I am sure most Winnipeggers would want LRT. The problem is that what a person wants and what they can afford can often be two different things. I seriously doubt that any of the city or provincial politicians, for example, do not share the same vision for Winnipeg and LRT. The difference is that they see more than the average person and have to juggle many different priorities...there is not an endless amount of funds to work with and there seems to be many different transit alternatives that picking the most expensive alternative even though it may prove to be the most forward thinking vision may just not be economically viable. However, that being said, one would think that at some point the need and available finances will converge and LRT in Winnipeg will happen.

Edmonton is a good example. Edmonton lead the way in LRT revival in North America in the late seventies and it has taken over 30 years for the economics of expansion to catch up with political will and transit demand to add the second south line.

I do not think anyone wants to see Winnipeg stay the way it is...it just seems that at the moment some people I believe think it can be tough to justify the huge expense given the alternatives.

[Reed Solomon]

get the land, put down a track, do shift+funds, voila. light rail.

[1ajs]

[vid]

Just because a bunch of people you know don't take the subway doesn't mean no one uses it. Lots of people here say no one takes the bus but I can never seem to get a seat. Who am I supposed to believe?

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by vid

Just because a bunch of people you know don't take the subway doesn't mean no one uses it. Lots of people here say no one takes the bus but I can never seem to get a seat. Who am I supposed to believe?

For what it's worth, the claim to which I was responding was that wealthy people in East St. Paul would never use the bus but would use rapid transit. I replied that in my experience, few such people in Toronto use the subway or streetcar even though, in the case of our office and many similar ones, there is an entrance right in the building. People just prefer to drive, which would be all the more true in Winnipeg where commuting times are very short to begin with and where parking costs are a fraction of Toronto's.

[supai]

Winnipeg is what just over 700,000 in population. I think that it is obvious that the city is on a path to reach one million. When will that occur no one really knows. However, the City has picked up in growth and that momentum will continue.

When the City has reached a million will the City say yah lets put in LRT. A little too late and much more expensive. Here is the opportunity now to shape this fine city and plan for the future. Go for LRT and direct Winnipeg's growth towards intensification around LRT stops. Makes much more sense than trying to do it in the future with a much more sprawling city.

LRT can work now in Winnipeg and the City should be planning for that now. I just don't think that BRT will achieve the same results as LRT.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by supai

Winnipeg is what just over 700,000 in population. I think that it is obvious that the city is on a path to reach one million. When will that occur no one really knows. However, the City has picked up in growth and that momentum will continue.

That might take a while considering the population of Winnipeg was almost 650,000 25 years ago.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by h0twired

That might take a while considering the population of Winnipeg was almost 650,000 25 years ago.

I'm pretty sure Winnipeg's population was between 500,000 and 550,000 25 years ago, not 650,000

[vid]

Thunder Bay's population was 110,000 50 years ago. It's 109,140 now.

We won't hit a million people until..... ever!

[Spocket]

25 years ago Winnipeg was roughly 650,000 including the surrounding municipalities. It pretty much stalled completely in the '90's and then resumed around 2000. Growth has since been fairly healthy and the rate appears to be increasing , albeit not particularly dramatically. The capital region is approximately 750,000. The projection , according to the residential land supply study done for Waverley West is that the CMA will reach 812,000 in 2026 (not to be confused with the Capital Region which would probably be closer to 850,000) Chances are good that this projection is a bit on the modest side and the rate of growth is in fact higher. Assuming current trends hold, we're probably on track to hit 812,000 closer to 2020 in the CMA. The downturn in the national economy will likely cause many ex-pats to return which, in the short term will boost us above the average growth rate. Considering that many of these folks also happen to be in the skilled trades and Alberta is no longer drawing them in, we're likely to see many of them set down roots here as they have a chosen career and this is currently one of only two provinces still looking forward to a healthy economic year ahead.