Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[hammersklavier]

It's a good start, and hits parts of the city I would like to see better served, but keep in mind that (a) good bus service is still good service, (b) having a route with an hour traversal time is most optimal given work rules, (c) make sure the mode matches the ridership, and (d) the Manayunk Wall is definitely too steep for light rail.

In practice, this often means that light rail is better suited on our wider E-W arterials; the busiest N-S routes will demand heavy rail, due to both geometric and ridership considerations.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by summersm343

My SEPTA Transit Line Wish List Map

http://goo.gl/maps/GAVTj

What do you think?

I loooove looking at maps like these. I've seen some great ones, even made one myself before. You're Route 1 subway line is unique, first time I've seen anyone propose that with it extending south on City Line avenue. Here's what I would do with your map in my imaginary world:

1. Extend your route 1 line all the way to Neshaminy. One way to get people on board with a line like this is to help appease suburban commuters. Imagine a park and ride near the Neshaminy mall. One complaint I hear from commuters I work with is that they have to drive all the way to the Trenton line, or to the West Trenton line. A line in between both that is rapid transit as opposed to commuter might draw some folks in, especially if it is 4 tracked for express trains from Bucks/Far NE to Broad Street, so most stops can be skipped. I would also have a direct connection to the BSL as one route. If you're familiar with NYC's transit lines, a route number can take several different tracks, just like a bus takes different streets and routes even change over the years. I would have a route that connects Center City directly to the NE making it a one seat trip.

2. Purple Line. I like it. Hopefully PATCO will make that a reality.

3. BSL extension: I would actually go through the NAVY yard, under the Delaware and into Gloucester county. Perhaps create a park and ride off of 295.

4. Green line. Not sure I understand the need for a loop. Instead of connecting it to Wayne Junction however, I'd run it through East Falls under Henry Avenue. The Henry Avenue bridge was originally designed to carry subway trains into Roxborough. You can see the space for the lower level from Lincoln Drive if you look up.

5. Blue line extension. If a Blvd train is created, then this is a must.

6. Yellow line. I remember the Septa proposal some years back for something similar. I can't imagine a huge ridership, but I could be wrong. If the PATCO/BSL connection was renewed and somehow connected to this, then it would work even better.

7. Trolleys. I'm not a huge fan of trolleys. I do understand why some people love them. They have a certain "coolness" factor to them. But I really don't see much use for them. One could argue the "green" factor, but most electricity produced in the U.S. comes from burning fossil fuels anyway, so trolleys may not be as "green" as they are thought to be. Buses are not restricted to one path or even a preset detour as trolleys are. If one bus breaks down, other buses can easily maneuver around it. But I actually like the subway surface lines. To me they make more sense than running buses under ground like the new city branch proposal. But, I'd still like to see trains running through the tunnels in Uni City instead of trolleys. But I digress.

Great job on the map. I love transportation ideas.

[summersm343]

1. Great idea! I think that is something that really could work extending it to Neshaminy Mall. I think it's obvious that it should extend along City Ave., hitting a large business district for the cit and Bala Cynwyd. This could also help to build higher and denser along City Ave. An express line would be a must, obviously, hitting only certain stops and eventually connecting to BSL and MSL. The idea of the line connecting directly to Center City could certainly be worked out.

3. Another great idea and definitely doable.

4. Do mean you don't understand the need for this line at all? I figured this would be an option for SEPTA way into the future but not necessarily an immediate need. This line could be built if the idea for new office buildings built along the Schuylkill in the old Industrial district ever comes to fruition... if not, there is no need for this line.

6. I think due to the connection with the proposed Reading Viaduct Park, the Broad Street Line, the Patco line, the Market Frankford Line and the proposed Purple Line, that this would have high ridership numbers... especially due to it's connection to the Art Museum, Barnes Foundation and Fairmount Park attractions including the Zoo. This line would also help to revitalize the loft district. Vine Street could then be capped with parks. Another option for this may be to run a light rail line down the Ben Franklin Parkway... but since the City Branch is already there, this option may be cheaper.

7. I just feel like Trolley's would have higher ridership numbers than buses.... I also feel like light rail trains may be too long for streets. I could be wrong though.

Thanks for the compliments! Glad you enjoyed

[Jonboy1983]

I also love transportation ideas, and I have one for your purple line. WHy not extend that through the linear area of greenery back toward the North Philadelphia regional rail station? I'd like to see that developed into a bit of a park or recreational area in conjunction with LRT. (figure out a way to isolate the freight line from a possible LRT line there). Right now, it's an eyesore. I think that would be an outside-the-box idea to really reinvent that part of the city.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by summersm343

4. Do mean you don't understand the need for this line at all? I figured this would be an option for SEPTA way into the future but not necessarily an immediate need. This line could be built if the idea for new office buildings built along the Schuylkill in the old Industrial district ever comes to fruition... if not, there is no need for this line.

I think the western half of South Philly could definitely be well served by rapid transit. It's just the loop portion itself that seems weird to me. I can understand the Chicago loop with several lines traversing a central loop, or even the proposed Center City loop that the 8th street and Locust street subways were originally supposed to be a part of. To me, feeders (buses) and trunks (rails, heavy or light) work well together and when implemented correctly seem to negate any advantage a loop may provide. However, since your map anticipates vast business growth in the area, then it would make sense.

I could spend all day talking transit. I wish all of the lines proposed back in the 30s, 40s and 50s had actually been built.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

I also love transportation ideas, and I have one for your purple line. WHy not extend that through the linear area of greenery back toward the North Philadelphia regional rail station? I'd like to see that developed into a bit of a park or recreational area in conjunction with LRT. (figure out a way to isolate the freight line from a possible LRT line there). Right now, it's an eyesore. I think that would be an outside-the-box idea to really reinvent that part of the city.

Great idea! That definitely makes sense... and would probably be pretty cheap to implement.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Phil_North

I think the western half of South Philly could definitely be well served by rapid transit. It's just the loop portion itself that seems weird to me. I can understand the Chicago loop with several lines traversing a central loop, or even the proposed Center City loop that the 8th street and Locust street subways were originally supposed to be a part of. To me, feeders (buses) and trunks (rails, heavy or light) work well together and when implemented correctly seem to negate any advantage a loop may provide. However, since your map anticipates vast business growth in the area, then it would make sense.

I could spend all day talking transit. I wish all of the lines proposed back in the 30s, 40s and 50s had actually been built.

I guess the South Philly Loop was a way to hit both a possible business district and the residents of the western portion of South Philly.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Great idea! That definitely makes sense... and would probably be pretty cheap to implement.

It does have much of the infrastructure still intact. However, I believe it would have to be refurbished or rebuilt -- mainly referring to the rail overpasses over the N-S streets there.

[EastSideHBG]

SEPTA to close Norristown line's rail bridge over Schuylkill

Paul Nussbaum, Inquirer Staff Writer
Posted: Friday, December 14, 2012, 3:01 AM

SEPTA plans to close the 3,175-foot-long bridge that carries Norristown High-Speed Line trains over the Schuylkill, the first in what could be a cascade of cutbacks caused by a lack of money, the agency said Thursday.

The 101-year-old Bridgeport Viaduct will be closed next summer, when warmer temperatures cause tracks to expand and pull free of steel spikes in rotted wooden ties, SEPTA chief engineer Jeff Knueppel said.

The bridge carries about 2,400 passengers a day to and from the Norristown Transportation Center. Buses will be used to carry passengers over an adjacent highway bridge while the rail bridge is closed, SEPTA officials said.

Emergency repairs last month, including gluing spikes in place, will allow the bridge to be kept open until summer, Knueppel said. Train speeds on the bridge have been reduced to 15 m.p.h. from 25.

It would cost about $7 million to replace the 1,708 wooden ties and an additional $23 million to repair and repaint the bridge, he said. That would mean closing the bridge for at least four months.

But SEPTA officials said the bridge may remain closed indefinitely, because they don't have the money to fix it.

And the closing could be followed by the shutdown of other bridges and facilities, as SEPTA's backlog of unfunded construction projects continues to grow.

"This is just the start," SEPTA Board Chairman Pasquale T. "Pat" Deon said Thursday. "There can be a ripple effect out through the rest of the system."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/lo...chuylkill.html

[Phil_North]

Which stations are adjacent to the viaduct?

[hammersklavier]

Bridgeport and Norristown. The bustitution would be a poor replacement, and that viaduct desperately needs some fixing up.

[EastSideHBG]

Yeah, this is going to be terribly annoying.

[EastSideHBG]

SEPTA rail service for King of Prussia Mall?

Breaking News Desk
Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2013, 10:13 AM

Proposed rail service to King of Prussia will be examined by SEPTA officials in three public sessions in Montgomery County next week.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...sia_Mall_.html

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

SEPTA rail service for King of Prussia Mall?

Breaking News Desk
Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2013, 10:13 AM

Proposed rail service to King of Prussia will be examined by SEPTA officials in three public sessions in Montgomery County next week.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...sia_Mall_.html

So they can afford this expansion but can't fix up the Norristown bridge.... Typical SEPTA Management Priorities out of sync...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Added the Cross Regional Rail line - Coatesville to Trenton
Cross Regional Rail
Coatesville
Thorndale
Downingtown
Whitford
Exton
Frazer
King of Prussia
Plymouth Meeting
Fort Washington
Easton Road - Willow Grove
Feasterville
Woodburne
Oxford Valley
Morrisville
Trenton Transit Center

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...13771,1.674042

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Added the Cross Regional Rail line - Coatesville to Trenton
Cross Regional Rail
Coatesville
Thorndale
Downingtown
Whitford
Exton
Frazer
King of Prussia
Plymouth Meeting
Fort Washington
Easton Road - Willow Grove
Feasterville
Woodburne
Oxford Valley
Morrisville
Trenton Transit Center

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...13771,1.674042

For a second I thought that was some formal proposal, heh heh. Come to think of it, this was in Downingtown Borough's long-range comprehensive plan back in 1994. I guess it was also in the DVRPC long range plan as well, considering this is more of a regional proposal/vision...

That would make tons of sense and should not be too costly to implement I wouldn't think. It would have to be double-tracked and re-electrified. Much of the necessary infrastructure is already in place. Tons of commuters use US 30 and US 202 between Downingtown and King of Prussia as well as the PA Turnpike between Valley Forge and Trenton...

[summersm343]

Article and info on the SEPTA Rail Expansion to King of Prussia

http://planphilly.com/articles/2013/...a-rail-project

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

For a second I thought that was some formal proposal, heh heh. Come to think of it, this was in Downingtown Borough's long-range comprehensive plan back in 1994. I guess it was also in the DVRPC long range plan as well, considering this is more of a regional proposal/vision...

That would make tons of sense and should not be too costly to implement I wouldn't think. It would have to be double-tracked and re-electrified. Much of the necessary infrastructure is already in place. Tons of commuters use US 30 and US 202 between Downingtown and King of Prussia as well as the PA Turnpike between Valley Forge and Trenton...

I wouldn't push Electrification , the corridor has alot of Freight and I don't there is enough ridership to support Electrification however it should be a DMU. I also added in the Hammonton LRT filling in another untapped corridor in South Jersey

Hammonton LRT
West Trenton Transit Center
Lower Ferry Road
Parkside Ave
Prospect Street
Calhoun & Bernard Street
Calhoun & Passaic Street
State House
State and Warren Street
State and Canal Street
Trenton Transit Center
Hamilton Ave
Cass Street
Bordentown
Roebling
Florence
Burlington Towne Centre
Burlington South
Beverly-Edgewater Park
Delanco
Riverside
Cinnaminson
Riverton
Palmyra
Pennsauken-Route 73
Pennsauken Transit Center
36th Street
Walter Rand Transportation ctr
Cooper St-Rutgers Univ.
Aquarium
Entertainment Center
Waterfront South
Woodlynne
Oaklyn
Audubon
Magnolia
Stratford
Clementon
Albion
Cedar Brook
Winslow JCT
Hammonton


https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...178979,0.41851

[Qubert]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Added the Cross Regional Rail line - Coatesville to Trenton
Cross Regional Rail
Coatesville
Thorndale
Downingtown
Whitford
Exton
Frazer
King of Prussia
Plymouth Meeting
Fort Washington
Easton Road - Willow Grove
Feasterville
Woodburne
Oxford Valley
Morrisville
Trenton Transit Center

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...13771,1.674042

This line would be alot more dope if it turned down US 202 after Exton and hit West Chester, Chadds Ford and then Wilmington. Many many people make that trek.

[summersm343]

Great news.. looks like SEPTA will get more funding after all.

An estimated $250 million in increased funding will go toward public-transit, and SEPTA could stand to receive about two-thirds of that.

http://planphilly.com/eyesonthestree...plash-of-color