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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 12:01 AM
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@muppet Some of our best recent social housing is located over "Rive Gauche", the large master plan of the 13th arrondissement that they've been implementing for some 20 years!
It is quite large and involves some hard work like covering some rail tracks, so it takes forever to gradually build the entire new neighborhood.
It is designed to be diverse in all aspects of life, which is the best you can do.

My favorite is still this one.

http://www.pss-archi.eu/photos/photo-4905.html

Not the tallest, but I like the fact that they tried some quality stained concrete to it.
People often don't realize, but concrete is just a composite material, so you may put whatever you want in there.
Like it doesn't have to be gray/grey and sometimes, it happens to really be good looking.

The current municipality of Paris also went to some crazier "social" projects of theirs, like turning some of this into social housing for instance.


https://www.duten.fr/projets/bourse-de-commerce-paris

You see these buildings with an arc shape? Lol, I think they are supposed to be social housing now.
I guess most people would find it mad, but frankly, I hardly care.
I also love d'Abraxas, built in the 70s-90s, so damn monumental. Almost socialist-fascist


https://www.idesignarch.comwww.idesi...e-Grand_1.jpeg


https://www.archdaily.com/774578/a-u...le-grand-photo

https://www.arch2o.com/wp-content/up...ronental-7.jpg

www.discoverwalks.com/blog



One of London's 'craziest' social housing units is in the luxury conversion of the Oxo Tower, where some of the $2.5 million penthouses went to local council tenants, helped by the Coin St Community Builders, a group of 4 housing associations that transformed their derelict 13 acre site into a community hub, then into one of the most vibrant neighbourhoods in the centre. They pretty much set up Gabriels Wharf (a set of restaurants on the river) which funded their community and other social housing developments in what would become prime ground.




www.visitbritain.com


Other developments for their community - against all the odds they've fought off developers and kept the area green also:


https://haworth-tompkins-assets.imgix.net

www.touristengland.com




https://img.theculturetrip.com

https://static.homesandproperty.co.uk, https://londonvisitors.files.wordpre...lderimage5.jpg

Last edited by muppet; Feb 28, 2020 at 12:28 AM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 8:50 AM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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I'm really enjoying your posts in this thread, muppet.
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  #43  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 10:41 AM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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I love how Muppets graph lumped all of the Americas into ONE category.

I wonder if that makes NYC look a little less diverse?! Of course, it does, and it was done on purpose. Lying by statistics.
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 5:11 PM
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Those aren't my graphs and I wouldn't call it 'lying'. You may have a point with the first graph which doesn't divide up North and South America -though it can be argued that doing so would skew the 'diversity' representation as these new colours would count about half of the others in population (Asia aside which is in the billions).

But look again at the second graph, if you were to divide up by country (rather than region) London would still be more diverse, let alone overall tally.



This isn't so much a comparison anyhoo, but shows that London is on a par with any US city, if not more so. It is not homogenous as inferred (and neither are most of the European capitals).

For example, foreign born/ foreign extraction populations:

Stockholm (27%), Copenhagen (27%), Munich (30%), Berlin (30%), Oslo (31%), Zurich (31%), Hamburg (34%), Ile-de-France/ Paris Metro (35%), Vienna (41%), Rotterdam (45%), Birmingham (47%) The Hague (48%), Amsterdam (51%), Antwerp (55%), Greater London (55%), Brussels (62%).

Last edited by muppet; Feb 28, 2020 at 5:51 PM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 5:43 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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I didn't mean to say you created those graphs or that you, in particular, were lying, just I felt the graphs you posted were those things. Apologies.
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 5:54 PM
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Don't worry, I think NYC urban area might have a higher number of foreign born anyhoo , it's just to show the cities are comparable, and that big European cities/ capitals are far from homogenous.
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  #47  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 6:54 PM
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This is not d'Abraxas, you London man!
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppet View Post
This is on avenue de Flandre in the 19th arrondissement of the central city, sort of the northeast edge of it, over the La Villette area. It is called Orgues de Flandre.
That very set of buildings is kinda gangster-ish at night because of some drug dealing, but the area is diverse, overall, 'cause the avenue is long and central enough to draw all sorts of people. There is some gentrification all around.
The tallest building was already re-claded and refurbished so it's more energy-efficient.
The entire thing is to gradually be upgraded.

The Espaces d'Abraxas is something quite different; an old Stalinist project in Noisy-le-Grand, Seine-Saint-Denis. Not the same area at all. Much less central, an eastern suburb.
The kind of soul-sucking project by the local commies that I despise as much as the nationalists.
I can remember, the spot was even picked to stage a pretty violent scene of the Hunger Games, a Hollywood franchise of ultra dystopian movies.

Downright fascist! That's what you meant, right? Mais bon, people find it interesting somehow, as an original piece of megalomaniac architecture by the local frustrated and embittered communists and neo-nazis.
It is rather monumental, I'll admit. You just can't deny it's got some badass character. I guess we could make something gentrified of it in the future, for the funky bourgeoisie and hipsters of our social democratic left wing.
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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 8:02 PM
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Here are some affordable (subsidized) properties built or restored by just one San Francisco non-profit developer:












































































All images: https://www.tndc.org/housing/our-portfolio/

As I said, I don't think we have much to learn from the Europeans on this subject.
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 29, 2020, 9:47 AM
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So which is it? The US doesn't have to learn from Europe because of burning tower blocks or because of progressive mixed-income building? Also I'd hazard the US isn't just San Francisco (which despite that fantastic non-profit, doesn't have the best record for maintaining its working class (read: Black) residents).

Like London the centre's become too gentrified, too off-limits for the working and middle classes to live in. London's had the same gentrification issues, but it's not so immediately evident in the population (other than maybe their clothing) as class doesn't necessarily correlate with race. A lot of the centre is now money parking territory for the world's elite, whether they be Italian or Arab or Nigerian or Chinese or Russian or Thai or Indian or Kenyan. They just wear swankier outfits and don't know what supermarkets are to those in Zone 2 onwards.

Basically the city council is constantly battling the developers while still being in each others pockets. Under the last Right wing govt the amount of affordable housing would drop dramatically each year thanks to ownership laws that allowed council properties to be bought over time by their residents, which meant more and more needed to be built. At some stage they realised they were just increasingly replacing the housing market with rentals and a substandard set of undesirable looking shared accommodation options, while driving all creativity away from the city industries, which relies on a working/ middle class and low costs. Hence the current mayor Sadiq Khan now hired on a platform of equalising the housing market not just as a social justice issue but an economic one too.

The article is all about making social housing desirable - well designed, close to public amenities and transport, and mixed income. Reread:

"Public housing" isn't such a loaded term in Vienna, Austria. In the European capital, public housing is attractive and well-maintained. It's located near schools, transit and cultural amenities. It's home to singles, families and senior citizens — and most important, it's mixed-income, with affluent Viennese sharing walls with working-class residents.

- But social housing is still a radical concept in the U.S., where government-funded housing is — unfairly or not — associated with crumbling apartment towers marred by crime and poverty.
First constructed as segregated housing for low-income Americans during the New Deal era, many public housing projects were reserved for poor African Americans systematically shut out of the housing market. As conditions worsened in public housing, the federal government pulled out, leaving local authorities with enormous maintenance backlogs and residents in unsafe conditions. --- Some progressive officials and activists say public housing doesn't need to be this way. Borrowing best practices from cities like Vienna, Austria, they say, could improve millions of lives, chip away at America's legacy of racial segregation and give the country an economic boost....

- Today, social housing in Vienna is available to people of all incomes. It's often built on government-owned land that's sold to a private company, which then owns and operates the housing units under public oversight. And crucially, social housing is placed in desirable areas and required to meet architectural and livability standards that make it appealing to people across the income spectrum. --- Those higher-income tenants pay market rents, subsidizing the cheaper rents reserved for low-income occupants. In Vienna, typically half of a building's units are reserved for low-income people. Rent costs don't fluctuate wildly year-over-year, in part because the government builds thousands of new social housing units each year, ensuring that supply keeps up with demand. Today, social housing accounts for an estimated 40% of the housing stock in Vienna.

Last edited by muppet; Feb 29, 2020 at 10:13 AM.
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 29, 2020, 2:32 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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"The article is all about making social housing desirable"

This is where you lost me. We shouldn't make living a life subsidized by taxpayers "desirable." Now, we also shouldn't make the situation dangerous for people or have them live in unmaintained homes but making it desirable sends the wrong signal.
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 29, 2020, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
So which is it? The US doesn't have to learn from Europe because of burning tower blocks or because of progressive mixed-income building?
The burning tower block was an example of a model I think is wrong: public housing in the sense of government built and managed housing. Time after time after time in the US (and Grenfell shows also in the UK) government has proven poorly equipped to be a landlord for housing.

But subsidized and non-profit housing development and management can work with careful oversight (for corruption). This is the model that has largely taken over in San Francisco.

But it isn't without issues. When it comes to rental housing, I think it works well enough to be supported and I do. When it comes to for-sale housing, I do NOT support mixed income (some subsidized, some market rate) buildings because the inability of the subsidized owners to support building improvement and maintenance at the same level as market rate owners will cause disharmony. The solution there is what SF also does which is to have a fund for condo buildings which are entirely subsidized.

But it needs to be recognized that the difficulty, as always, is in paying for the subsidies. The way we do it--developer fees and mandates--inevitably boosts the cost of market rate housing which must cover not only its own costs and developer profit but also some of the cost and all of the profit for the subsidized units. The alternative--doing it with tax money--at least spreads the burden around to the entire population of taxpayers (not just buyers/renters of new homes) but becomes one more hidden cost that government sticks onthe backs of citizens and hopes they won't notice.
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 29, 2020, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
"The article is all about making social housing desirable"

This is where you lost me. We shouldn't make living a life subsidized by taxpayers "desirable." Now, we also shouldn't make the situation dangerous for people or have them live in unmaintained homes but making it desirable sends the wrong signal.
I think it's also about making it workable. The non-profit development/management model does work but not without issues I commented on just above.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 8:39 AM
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I think there are two stands of thought here, both of which there isn't a right or wrong yet, though many think there is.

In Europe there's much more of a social safety net and livability index although we take home less money, and work less. In the US more vice versa.

But in Europe what you lose in money you gain in security, and can be argued you even save in wealth (the public cost of crime/ inequality for example). You'll worry less about losing your job, you'll get more paid mandatory holidays, and there's less division and inequality. Your cities are also eminently more livable.

To reach this stage you do have to stump up the cash for the poor, but that should elevate them or at least their children so that poverty doesn't get ingrained within family or community lines. However get this wrong (a simple act of ghettoisation whether physically or mentally) and the poverty can become an institutionalised trap, with all the mod cons associated, such as crime, division, racism, miseducation. In short you can end up with high tax burdens yet high social divisions and crime despite, in the same way as the opposite camp still paying top dollar for personal securitisation, health and combatting crime rather than enjoying lower taxes. This is pretty much a picture of the failures of the postwar world that culminated in the 1980s and 90s, a legacy of the 'commie blocks' of UK, Belgium and France (though in Northern and Eastern Europe they worked well in that period) and the suburban 'White' flight, gated communities and McMansions of the US.

Since then thousands of those highrises (read: class ghettoes) have been demolished (for example London alone has taken down 500, Birmingham 300), and been replaced with high density mixed income developments, coupled with strong community investment (which saves on social costs in the long run). Also the welfare state has been curbed - now jobseekers no longer get free passes into benefit traps, free healthcare is part-subsidised by the patient at very low costs (for example they'll pay for one off medication, but everything else or long term is free), and free housing is increasingly under attack as the pool dwindles and waiting lists lengthen (this has not been a success, creating a whole new raft of problems as seen in the housing crises/ bubbles).

For example in Europe, a city may technically have thousands of homeless people, the same or an increase from the dark days of the 80s, but only a handful sleep rough anymore and the rest get housed each night. A city may have multiple times more crimes than their equivalent in the US, but a tiny percentage of homicide. In some countries and cities immigrants earn more than natives, in places like the UK Blacks in some years earn more on average than Whites such is the narrowness of the pay gap (but even then it was a national scandal that a 10% inequality existed, when the results came out in 2017). The average difference between White and the most maligned minority is only 15%, whereas in the US it can be over half.






https://www.economist.com/sites/defa...707_USC957.png


The result nowadays are the local councils have almost too much tax to spend, as the running costs of crime, inequality and poverty has reduced so dramatically. But this has also meant an increase in corruption and tender processes, where fitting a lightbulb into a school can now cost $100 for an unscrupulous council.

In short your trade off will be - less pay/ spending for better livability, opportunity, equality for the working and middle classes, access and free time. But this can go wrong and relies on a strong economy to pull off, otherwise you may end up with the worst of both worlds.

I think the US could learn from this both in terms of the successes and mistakes made, and economically too. For example the amount of middle classes in the 1950s US was 70%, and has since dwindled to 50%, and the opposite for Europe. Rich as many Americans are, they could be even richer and live easier.


www.theatlantic.com, https://assets.pewresearch.org

https://slideplayer.com

However that has been fantastic for US corporations and economic 'growth', thanks to the UHNWI/ 1% that holds the majority of the money.



...

In short the European approach will give you a richer populace/ society at large, the US a richer economy at large.

Last edited by muppet; Mar 12, 2020 at 1:35 PM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 9:28 AM
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What is your idea of ideal? (bear in mind both are almost unattainable, and highly arguable which is freer. Both can also start to resemble each other when corrupted). I've made a point not to make either side country-specific.


This - positive freedom (guided/forced to be free)


https://images.fineartamerica.com

https://gunaxin.com

www.skateistan.com, www.nyt.com


Or this - negative freedom (free to be free):


https://supermouse.blog, https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Rizpa...pg_960x960.jpg




https://www.theurbanwire.com/2010/05...-we-carrie-on/



And these can be argued to belong to both sides:





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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 12:17 PM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
"The article is all about making social housing desirable"

This is where you lost me. We shouldn't make living a life subsidized by taxpayers "desirable." Now, we also shouldn't make the situation dangerous for people or have them live in unmaintained homes but making it desirable sends the wrong signal.
I wonder how much of the awfulness of public housing and other public services in the US is attributable to policymakers having just this attitude.

Contrast this with the attitude prevalent among the Dutch and Scandinavians, for example, that achieving a desirable standard of living for all people is an important collective responsibility. No wonder their parks, neighborhoods, schools, public transit systems, and their extensive social housing are so desirable (even for many middle-class residents). After all, these aren't designed to degrade and humiliate their users in order to communicate a moral signal.

But we certainly can't risk the moral dislocation of making a life subsidized by taxpayers desirable. (Never mind that the US spends far more on homeowner subsidies than it does on affordable housing... )
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 1:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
I wonder how much of the awfulness of public housing and other public services in the US is attributable to policymakers having just this attitude.

Contrast this with the attitude prevalent among the Dutch and Scandinavians, for example, that achieving a desirable standard of living for all people is an important collective responsibility. No wonder their parks, neighborhoods, schools, public transit systems, and their extensive social housing are so desirable (even for many middle-class residents). After all, these aren't designed to degrade and humiliate their users in order to communicate a moral signal.

But we certainly can't risk the moral dislocation of making a life subsidized by taxpayers desirable. (Never mind that the US spends far more on homeowner subsidies than it does on affordable housing... )
Someone with more insight than me needs to weigh in, but all this desirable, decent public housing in Europe... Is there a legacy of racism underpinning it? In the US, there usually was: Immigrant and African-American communities were deliberately sidelined, deprived, and neglected, and then the residents of those areas were punished because their neighborhoods were deprived and neglected, and looked it. Those neighborhoods were leveled in urban "renewal" en masse, and the residents relocated and penned into public housing and left to rot.

In my own city, to look at the neighborhood that is being redeveloped, it and another high-crime public housing complex, Pisgah View, were developed as emergency housing to alleviate the housing shortage for veterans coming back from WWII. Lee Walker Heights was specifically built for black veterans and their families, and when the baby boom hit, it gained the moniker of Diaper Hill because of all the cloth diapers on the clotheslines up there. Then the city, seeing what decades of neglect had done to black neighborhoods like the East End and Stumptown, condemned them, leveled them, herded the residents into the old veterans housing and left them there.

This is a photo of the East End, which no longer exists. Neighborhoods like this all across the country were deliberately starved of resources, then punished for not having as many resources, opportunities, or being in as good repair as white neighborhoods. They were torn down, and the residents warehoused in public housing. In this process, those residents had what connections, resources, and opportunities that they had been able to develop in spite of conditions, torn out from under them. It's worth noting that this photo was taken in 1966, and the only buildings in the photo that had indoor plumbing are likely the courthouse and city hall in the background. There were likely a few houses in the East End in 1966 that didn't even have electricity.


Source.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 2:05 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Those aren't my graphs and I wouldn't call it 'lying'. You may have a point with the first graph which doesn't divide up North and South America -though it can be argued that doing so would skew the 'diversity' representation as these new colours would count about half of the others in population (Asia aside which is in the billions).

But look again at the second graph, if you were to divide up by country (rather than region) London would still be more diverse, let alone overall tally.



This isn't so much a comparison anyhoo, but shows that London is on a par with any US city, if not more so. It is not homogenous as inferred (and neither are most of the European capitals).

For example, foreign born/ foreign extraction populations:

Stockholm (27%), Copenhagen (27%), Munich (30%), Berlin (30%), Oslo (31%), Zurich (31%), Hamburg (34%), Ile-de-France/ Paris Metro (35%), Vienna (41%), Rotterdam (45%), Birmingham (47%) The Hague (48%), Amsterdam (51%), Antwerp (55%), Greater London (55%), Brussels (62%).

no doubt for london they divide up the british isles or whatever they want to call it that will juice their stats to look best to beat ny, into a dozen or so different cultures, whereas usa would count it as one culture, england.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 4:29 PM
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?? erm, are you talking about the native British population? If you are they don't get counted as Foreign Born, as well, they're not foreign born, whether they be Northern Irish, Welsh, Scottish or English, they were born within the singular borders of the United Kingdom. The rest are done from nationality by foreign country of origin (and if they're not a sovereign country, their colony/ territory), as recorded by the ONS (Office of National Statistics) using the National Insurance applications data. For example anyone from the hundreds of disparate communities in India would get counted under the one category of Indian rather than say Punjabi or Sikh etc.

https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/n...ionals-borough

I'm not sure why we're still talking about this?
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 4:53 PM
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I can see his point though. An Irish living in London (the culturally closest world city) counts as foreign born. Same with a Continental from just over the channel.

If people born in New Jersey or Connecticut counted as foreign born, NYC's stats would be through the roof... (as it is, a good chunk of NYC's Caribbean community - Puerto Ricans - aren't even counted!)

A much better metric would be % who didn't have English as their native language. No idea how these cities would rank then, but it would more closely match reality.
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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2020, 5:02 PM
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OMG where to start?

Mate, you can say the same about Canadians. And people in New Jersey and Connecticut are NOT foreign born. Get back to me when they declare independence, have their own native tongue, religion, cuisine, national dress, dance, sports, history and culture or start congregating in their own communities, with their own national day celebrations.

Culturally though, the differences between 'a Continental' eg France or Germany or Poland etc are huge. But I think you know that.

Oh and don't forget this:

Video Link






Nor the fact for the most recent 400 years UK and Ireland have largely been enemies:, from war to colonialism to famine to insurrection to civil war to the NI question/ border dispute post-Brexit today. The Irish have long been one of the most maligned communities for centuries in London (despite one third of native White Londoners having part ancestry), for example they are one of the communities most likely to die in police custody, suffer homelessness and institutionalised racism, not helped by the past 30 years of anti-UK Irish terrorism. They traditionally congregated in Kilburn, Cricklewood, Camden and Archway, though now Clapham is becoming the new stomping grounds for new arrivals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment

https://www.irishpost.com/news/londo...mmunities-1806

Last edited by muppet; Mar 2, 2020 at 6:39 PM.
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